The way auctions close?

[Leon]

It's interesting to hear collectors thoughts on the best way to end auctions (to maximize value). Many times I have fallen asleep, woke up, and continued bidding in the all night ones. What are your thoughts on auction endings? What do you think the best is to maximize prices?

One sentiment has been, the auctions ending altogether, all at once and very late, tend to help the whales with lots of money more than the other auctions ending lot by lot. However, what if the bidders were able to get extended payment terms to bid on more? Would that alleviate some of the issue? For me personally it's rarely been an issue as I figure out what I want most and have gone that route. A point for ending auctions lot by lot is that it keeps bidders interested the whole time. Your thoughts....?

[bobbyw8469]

Me personally, I hate auctions that end at 4:00-5:00 in the morning. Those definitely favor the west coast bidders at the expense of the east coasters. For the Love of the Game auction this morning, it was STILL going on when I woke up at 6:00 AM in the morning! I technically could have kept the bidding going, but Al shut the auction down even though the countdown clock was still winding down.

My favorite auction endings are Hunt, Legendary, and Huggins & Scott. Have each lot with their own 30 minute timer. Poop or get off the pot.

When you end auctions in the wee hours or definitive late times (Ebay ending in the early hours or a Net 54 live auction ending at midnight), you definitely lose out on the East Coasters bidding, which hurts your final price.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Me personally, I hate auctions that end at 4:00-5:00 in the morning. Those definitely favor the west coast bidders at the expense of the east coasters. For the Love of the Game auction this morning, it was STILL going on when I woke up at 6:00 AM in the morning! I technically could have kept the bidding going, but Al shut the auction down even though the countdown clock was still winding down.

My favorite auction endings are Hunt, Legendary, and Huggins & Scott. Have each lot with their own 30 minute timer. Poop or get off the pot.

When you end auctions in the wee hours or definitive late times (Ebay ending in the early hours or a Net 54 live auction ending at midnight), you definitely lose out on the East Coasters bidding, which hurts your final price.

I generally agree with this sentiment, however this morning my dog woke me up at 5:30, wanting to go out. I checked in on LOTG and was able to come back and win an item that I had been outbid on overnight. So that was a good start to the day.

Generally though, I like the lot by lot 15 minute rule...

[Stonepony]

I guess as a buyer I'd prefer a lot by lot close. As a consignor I'm not so sure.

[BleedinBlue]

My biggest issue with the "lot by lot" format is it limits where I can spend my money if I get outbid late in an auction. For instance. I am far from being a whale. But last night there were a dozen or so of the old judges that I was interested in. I didn't have the funds to buy all the lots I was interested in so because I was winning 2-3 lots I was effectively blocked due to fund limitations from bidding on the other lots I was interested in.

In a B&L auction a few months ago the other lots I was interested in but not high bidder on closed while I was still winning my financial limit of cards. So, when I eventually got outbid on the lots I was winning and those lots exceeded my perceived fair market value I went to sleep with money in my pocket for next time. Money I would have been willing to spend on lots that I no longer had the ability to bid on because they had already closed. So, in my case the sellers lost money because I could not bid on cards when my funds became available late in the auction.

However, auctions like last night are a mess for us east coasters. I got outbid at 3:55 am. I was not willing to go higher for the lot I was tracking at that point but since I was sleeping I was unable to go see if I was willing to spend my money elsewhere. The auction closed and I still have my money in my pocket.

Both formats have issues. Both prevented me from being a buyer recently. The lot by lot format results in lower total sales prices in my opinion though. But as a small time player right now I'm probably better off on the BST now anyway.

[vintagehofrookies]

I can't stand auctions that end at 2-3 in the morning as I always end up bidding less than I would if said auction ended by the 15-20 min rule. If I was an auction house I would worry that the all auctions end at the same time rule would basically eliminate any bidding wars that might occur as most people won't stay up until 3-4-5 am so the advantage goes to the West coast bidders who just hold off on their bids until that time instead of forcing them to enter their bids earlier which in turn could trigger a bidding war, a la higher closing prices for auctions.

[tiger8mush]

The 15-20 minute rule seems to extend an auction to the wee hours. How about after 10pm make it a 5 minute rule? Auction ends when there are no bids for 5 mins. At midnight if it is still going, make it a 3 minute clock.

[AMBST95]

I'm a small time bidder but have often found myself asleep at the wheel. I really enjoy Sterling's auctions as you only need 1 bid to then bid on any item in extended bidding. There have been several times I've switched midstream when the prices have gotten hairy. I really dislike auctions that end during the week, mostly due to the late end times.

The AHs have to strike a balance between bidder and consignor. I can see having extended bidding go to 1 or 2 am EST. This gives all 4 time zones a chance to actively bid. These lots are posted for up to a month in some cases, there's no need to extend things to odd times of the night/morning. When's the last time an automobile auction ended at 4:30 am EST? Do you see estate sales at 3 in the morning? It just doesn't make sense. The premise for these late running auctions I guess is you get all 4 time zones to bid and then maybe get a few bids late. If we're talking big time items with min bid increments that's a lot of extra money.

If your livelihood depends on the sale of these items or you have an extreme obsession with an item than I guess you'll stay up to the wee hours, but I'm assuming most collectors have other commitments that keep them from devoting that kind of time to the hobby as they need to earn the money they plan on using to bid with. In those cases they'll set a max bid and be happy with it. We all know there are bidders out there who will go beyond their max when in the moment and those are the people the AHs lose out on.

I think a solution is a smaller amount of time without a bid. 15 minutes is a lot of time. This would help to move things along and keep things from going so late. At a live auction will an auctioneer say going once, wait 5 minutes, say going twice, wait 5 minutes, say going three times, wait another 5 minutes then say closed?

[pawpawdiv9]

Never thought of it that way, by ending lot by lot. A buyer that misses out on a particular lot, htne has the opportunity to use that money he didnt spend and spend it on a different lot (if able)- meaning if he had a inital bid in, which prevents him from being locked out of that lot.
Personally i just put in what i am willing to pay and go to sleep and wait till next morning.
I actually just registered for gavelsnipe, today. Even tho its just for Ebay and HA., i should of used this a long time ago.

[buymycards]

One sentiment has been, the auctions ending altogether, all at once and very late, tend to help the whales with lots of money more than the other auctions ending lot by lot. However, what if the bidders were able to get extended payment terms to bid on more? Would that alleviate some of the issue?

Hi Leon,
One of your questions seems to have been overlooked by the previous posters. If I understand your question correctly, you are wondering if more bids would be generated if the winner did not have to pay right away. For instance, before the auction begins, a bidder could request a line of credit, and if the prices start to get high, more bids may be generated if the winners had more time to pay for the item. I think a lot of people might like that idea, although I wonder how it would affect the time in which consigners get paid.

Rick

[GregMitch34]

I'll just say that the very late night (early morning?) closings have definitely kept a lot of my money out of consignors' and AH's hands. Perhaps if a lot of others here agree that might influence things....

[dog*dirt]

As a buyer I prefer ending lot by lot but as a when consigning I prefer late auctions.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by dog*dirt

As a buyer I prefer ending lot by lot but as a when consigning I prefer late auctions.

Why? There's no evidence that closing auctions lot by lot reduce the $$$ a consigner gets. IF properly marketed and people understand the auction ends lot by lot, anybody bidding at 4am could make the same bid at midnight.

The reason auctions go so late is because the current auction format encourages people to stall late into the night hoping their competition will give up. I don't see how this helps the final price of lots.

Yes, I understand there are particular scenarios where in a lot by lot format you can't bid on everything you want and may lose out on things but I feel a lot more is lost by consigners from people who would otherwise bid just giving up. I understand you can use max bids but there are plenty of downsides to that as well.

I am a big fan of lot by lot auctions as mentioned previously.

jeff

[nolemmings]

The reason auctions go so late is because the current auction format encourages people to stall late into the night hoping their competition will give up. I don't see how this helps the final price of lots.

Agreed.

Leon, I don't know if it would change my bidding if the AH was to extend payment terms but I know I would not want to wait for my money as a consignor, or maybe have someone back out from payment down the road leaving who owes what to whom. If the AH wants to take on the risk of those problems, maybe by paying the consignor in full immediately and taking some sort of vig on extended payments then that would be different.

[dog*dirt]

Jeff,

It's just my experience, last night I went to sleep at 1:00 AM Eastern time, when I awoke my consignments closed at $700 above the level it was when I went to sleep. That was on multiple items bid up by $25-50 increments.

However, you do bring up good points and I very well may be wrong.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by buymycards

One sentiment has been, the auctions ending altogether, all at once and very late, tend to help the whales with lots of money more than the other auctions ending lot by lot. However, what if the bidders were able to get extended payment terms to bid on more? Would that alleviate some of the issue?

Hi Leon,
One of your questions seems to have been overlooked by the previous posters. If I understand your question correctly, you are wondering if more bids would be generated if the winner did not have to pay right away. For instance, before the auction begins, a bidder could request a line of credit, and if the prices start to get high, more bids may be generated if the winners had more time to pay for the item. I think a lot of people might like that idea, although I wonder how it would affect the time in which consigners get paid.

Rick

Thank God for you Rick!! Everyone overlooked a potential (heck if I know for sure) solution to the problem. If anyone would care to also answer I would love to hear some views. All opinions are welcome. I am curious as a collector, resale buyer, seller, consignor, auctioneer.....need I keep going?

So if you could pay for winnings over 3-6 or more mos., would that be viable and level the playing field any?


.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Leon

Thank God for you Rick!! Everyone overlooked a potential (heck if I know for sure) solution to the problem. If anyone would care to also answer I would love to hear some views. All opinions are welcome. I am curious as a collector, resale buyer, seller, consignor, auctioneer.....need I keep going?



So if you could pay for winnings over 3-6 or more mos., would that be viable and level the playing field any?





.

In the case where there is a huge item (E105 Cobb for example ) up for auction, I could see myself taking advantage of a payment plan. But the question is: Does the AH take the risk and pay the consignor immediately after auction close, or does the consignor have to take the risk and wait for full payment?

[barrysloate]

Somebody needs to come up with a system that forces bidders to place bids early. It isn't as if it takes until 6:00 AM for all the bids to be placed and processed, it's really that bidders feel no pressure to bid before the wee hours of the morning. And they do wait. Instead of placing their bids early, they try to wait until the last possible minute, hoping to catch a competitor sleeping, or to get a last bid in before the auction finally closes.

This is silly. Most of the time between 10:00 PM and 6:00 AM is dead time. Nobody seems to want to tackle this, but with so many auctions taking place these days, how many times can bidders be counted on to stay up all night? And bidders who have to eventually go to sleep are bidders who aren't bidding, so the auction house is leaving some amount of money on the table. You ideally want everyone to get all their bids in before they quit, not go to sleep because they can't stay up any longer. How many times to we hear of bidders willing to go another increment, but they fell asleep and when they awoke the auction already ended. It's a flawed system.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Somebody needs to come up with a system that forces bidders to place bids early. It isn't as if it takes until 6:00 AM for all the bids to be placed and processed, it's really that bidders feel no pressure to bid before the wee hours of the morning. And they do wait. Instead of placing their bids early, they try to wait until the last possible minute, hoping to catch a competitor sleeping, or to get a last bid in before the auction finally closes.

I don't think a lot of sniping occurs that is based on 1 person's knowledge and the lack of others, so I have a hard time understanding why the wait, other than when your limit is reached on a specific item you want to spread your money elsewhere. So what's the problem if that limit is reached sooner? Earlier bidding is better for the AH and consignor.

How about a BP discount/penalty? Up to the last day of the auction, the BP is the AH standard BP. The last day of the auction, BP+. When it gets into extended bidding, BP++. Determining exact amounts is left as an exercise for the student.

(another non-perfect solution)

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by Leon

Thank God for you Rick!! Everyone overlooked a potential (heck if I know for sure) solution to the problem. If anyone would care to also answer I would love to hear some views. All opinions are welcome. I am curious as a collector, resale buyer, seller, consignor, auctioneer.....need I keep going?

So if you could pay for winnings over 3-6 or more mos., would that be viable and level the playing field any?


.

I personally like the idea, Leon. There were at least two cards that I would have kept going on last night if I was able to extend the pay period. That said, I'd trust myself to put the money away over the extended period (for me, it's more of avoiding the wife's wrath in spending so much all at once ). I would worry about everyone making good on their bids. People tend to be optimistic about finances when you can push it out 3-6 months. I could see AH's running into situations where the winning bidder just can't come up with the funds, even with the extended time period.

Not sure how you'd screen folks to qualify...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by wolf441

I personally like the idea, Leon. There were at least two cards that I would have kept going on last night if I was able to extend the pay period. That said, I'd trust myself to put the money away over the extended period (for me, it's more of avoiding the wife's wrath in spending so much all at once ). I would worry about everyone making good on their bids. People tend to be optimistic about finances when you can push it out 3-6 months. I could see AH's running into situations where the winning bidder just can't come up with the funds, even with the extended time period.

Not sure how you'd screen folks to qualify...

Maybe 25% down, terms on the rest....good ole credit and/or reference check. Only very good to excellent risks needs apply. Be responsible (right?). Someone once told me that our credit score is akin to an adult financial report card. I never forgot that one.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Leon

Thank God for you Rick!! Everyone overlooked a potential (heck if I know for sure) solution to the problem. If anyone would care to also answer I would love to hear some views. All opinions are welcome. I am curious as a collector, resale buyer, seller, consignor, auctioneer.....need I keep going?

So if you could pay for winnings over 3-6 or more mos., would that be viable and level the playing field any?


.

What's the difference between selling cards you don't own and buying cards you can't afford. This is beginning to sound like the "American" way, Washington style. I will be paying for my next B & L Auction winnings with my 2017 tax refund, I promise, provided the national debt doesn't double by then and Social Security remains solvent. And if I break my hip, the deal is off.

Please ship my items by registered mail and fully insured as soon as possible using your buyer's premium and don't forget to send tracking numbers.

Sincerely Yours,

N. "Sol" Vent

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

what's the difference between selling cards you don't own and buying cards you can't afford. This is beginning to sound like the "american" way, washington style. I will be paying for my next b & l auction winnings with my 2017 tax refund, i promise, provided the national debt doesn't double by then and social security remains solvent. And if i break my hip, the deal is off.

Please ship my items by registered mail and fully insured as soon as possible using your buyer's premium and don't forget to send tracking numbers.

Sincerely yours,

n. "sol" vent

"...and you kids get off my lawn!!!! :d

[frohme]

Originally Posted by Leon

[...]

So if you could pay for winnings over 3-6 or more mos., would that be viable and level the playing field any?


.

Heritage offered this for a while (not sure if they still do). You could be pre-approved and get an extended 4-month payment period, same as cash If I recall (though recollection ain't what it was). I think you had to pay at least 1/4 of the total each month, but don't know for sure as I never used it.

Found the link. http://www.ha.com/c/ref/extended-payment-terms.zx

--
Mike

[Golfcollector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Somebody needs to come up with a system that forces bidders to place bids early. It isn't as if it takes until 6:00 AM for all the bids to be placed and processed, it's really that bidders feel no pressure to bid before the wee hours of the morning. And they do wait. Instead of placing their bids early, they try to wait until the last possible minute, hoping to catch a competitor sleeping, or to get a last bid in before the auction finally closes.

Green Jacket auctions which specialized in golf memorabilia has a giveaway that usually rewards 10-15 bidders with winning a free prize.

You get one entry for any bid made on any lot for a period of two days which is early in the auction.

This obviously drives the price up quickly on some lots, but it also cuts out the last minute bidding on stuff. With a chance to win two masters practice round tickets or even just a Masters Flag, you would be amazed at how many bids take place.

It seems to work well for them... and I personally would like to see some other auction houses try something similar...I am sure any of the larger ones could easily pony up a couple grand in material as giveaways...particularly with the fees they are charging on both ends.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Leon

Thank God for you Rick!! Everyone overlooked a potential (heck if I know for sure) solution to the problem. If anyone would care to also answer I would love to hear some views. All opinions are welcome. I am curious as a collector, resale buyer, seller, consignor, auctioneer.....need I keep going?

So if you could pay for winnings over 3-6 or more mos., would that be viable and level the playing field any?


.

There have been several times where I've wished I could do exactly that!!!

A six-month maximum window seems to me to be a good time frame.

Steve

[MartyFromCANADA]

They should end the auctions in the afternoon on the East coast. Let extended bidding rules begin at around 4 or 5pm. After midnight, bidding should only continue on active lots. *I was up until 1:30 EST last night, winning three lots, woke up and was outbid on all. Poor me

[RGold]

Originally Posted by MartyFromCANADA

They should end the auctions in the afternoon on the East coast. Let extended bidding rules begin at around 4 or 5pm. After midnight, bidding should only continue on active lots. *I was up until 1:30 EST last night, winning three lots, woke up and was outbid on all. Poor me

Common sense answers like that do not belong on this forum!

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by MartyFromCANADA

They should end the auctions in the afternoon on the East coast. Let extended bidding rules begin at around 4 or 5pm. After midnight, bidding should only continue on active lots. *I was up until 1:30 EST last night, winning three lots, woke up and was outbid on all. Poor me

As tongue in cheek as this statement is, the reality is there is no such thing as an East Coast auction. There are MANY west coast auctions however.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by Leon

Thank God for you Rick!! Everyone overlooked a potential (heck if I know for sure) solution to the problem. If anyone would care to also answer I would love to hear some views. All opinions are welcome. I am curious as a collector, resale buyer, seller, consignor, auctioneer.....need I keep going?

So if you could pay for winnings over 3-6 or more mos., would that be viable and level the playing field any?


.

Approving a line of credit prior to the auction start and potential having extended time to pay for things wouldn't make a difference to me. I would not use it.

Z Wheat

[pbspelly]

I can't stand the way auctions close like they did last night. It's incredibly annoying to see the price stay the same for several hours of extended bidding, then you go to sleep at one am and wake up to see the final price has jumped after other bidders put in very late bids (probably after losing on other auctions).

My feeling is that if you're going to bid on something, bid on it. Declare thyself. I vastly prefer auctions in which the lots close individually.

I understand the issue, though, that those type of auctions preclude someone with a set amount of money to spend, but willing to use it for any of several different auctions, from switching their target after losing out in a different auction.

One idea might be to have staggered closings. In which the lots close one at a time, but at different times, and with much more limited extended bidding. That way if you're interested in lots 68 and 89, for instance, you could wait until 68 closed before deciding whether to bet on 89, but you would still know around when both auctions were going to close, and thus wouldn't have to stay up by the computer all night.

I haven't really thought this through so there might be problems with it. But I can honestly say that I doubt I'll bid on many more auctions like the one last night. Even though I won the item I was trying to get.