Which Robin Roberts card is rarer?

[philliesphan]

His 1949 Lummis Peanut Butter card
or
His 1951 Topps All-Stars card


Be interested to hear thoughts on examples extant of each. I'd speculate three on the latter, and perhaps five on the former. Any thoughts?

Marc

[bcbgcbrcb]

Lpb

Definitely the Lummis

[philliesphan]

surprised by the responses.

I thought there were only ~3 examples known each of Roberts, Stanky and Konstanty, so I imagined there might be a strong view that as one of the super short prints from that set [and the huge demand] that would be considered the rarer.

I know that Lummis cards are exceptionally scarce, with perhaps only a dozen or so examples having been sold publicly over the last decade.

Be interested, Phil and Adam, if you could provide any more context on your assessment.

Cheers

[whiteymet]

NO comparison. The Roberts Konstanty and Stanky were not even known to the collecting community until about 5 years after they were "issued".

The Current All Star is far and away the rarer of the two cards. Others may have just been thinking of "regular" Current All Stars in which case I would agree on the Lummis, but not in comparison the the Roberts Konstanty and Stanky!!

[toppcat]

MLAS for sizzle.

[Volod]

Just wondering - how were the Lummis cards issued? Were they attached to the product? Sold via mail-in request? The 1951 MLAS card was only obtained by special request made to Topps. That alone, in my view, would indicate that the Topps card is probably far rarer.
I have to wonder how a hobbyist in 1951 would even have become aware that the 11-card set of MLAS contained three non-issued rarities. Probably not by going into a mom&pop store and buying 100 wax packs and finding dozens of the eight commons and none of the other three. It was only later that highly knowledgable hobby vets received inside information about the Roberts, Konstanty and Stanky cards, and were able to request them from Topps. At least, that has been my understanding.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Volod

Just wondering - how were the Lummis cards issued? Were they attached to the product? Sold via mail-in request? The 1951 MLAS card was only obtained by special request made to Topps. That alone, in my view, would indicate that the Topps card is probably far rarer.
I have to wonder how a hobbyist in 1951 would even have become aware that the 11-card set of MLAS contained three non-issued rarities. Probably not by going into a mom&pop store and buying 100 wax packs and finding dozens of the eight commons and none of the other three. It was only later that highly knowledgable hobby vets received inside information about the Roberts, Konstanty and Stanky cards, and were able to request them from Topps. At least, that has been my understanding.

I think it was highlighted in Card Collectors Bulletin as Woody Gelman was very active in the hobby then and had just started working at Topps in 1951-52, although his art agency had worked on the account for a couple of years prior. Woody is the man who rescued the three MLAS short prints.

[sflayank]

not even close current all star roberts many many times rarer

[ALR-bishop]

Bob--It's not sick, just you...and me... because we don't have one.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I think it was highlighted in Card Collectors Bulletin as Woody Gelman was very active in the hobby then and had just started working at Topps in 1951-52, although his art agency had worked on the account for a couple of years prior. Woody is the man who rescued the three MLAS short prints.

Thanks for the memory upgrade, Dave. Do you have access to any Gelman interviews or recollections in this specific vein? It seems that the Shorins just decided to trash the short prints, or some such. I had imagined that the three cards sat in a file drawer at Topps for a few years so that any requests coming in for them could be filled, but if, as you say, Gelman "rescued" them, what from, and to what extent?

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Volod

Thanks for the memory upgrade, Dave. Do you have access to any Gelman interviews or recollections in this specific vein? It seems that the Shorins just decided to trash the short prints, or some such. I had imagined that the three cards sat in a file drawer at Topps for a few years so that any requests coming in for them could be filled, but if, as you say, Gelman "rescued" them, what from, and to what extent?

I have to dig out the reference-it may have been from Len Brown or Jay Lynch. Will post it when I track it down after de-stratifying my desk. I do believe there were legal reasons those three were pulled but there is some (thin) evidence they may have been printed separately from the other 8 cards in the set.

[Volod]

Dave - Thanks. I look forward to your information, if you can find it.

[philliesphan]

Originally Posted by Volod

Just wondering - how were the Lummis cards issued? Were they attached to the product? Sold via mail-in request? The 1951 MLAS card was only obtained by special request made to Topps. That alone, in my view, would indicate that the Topps card is probably far rarer.
I have to wonder how a hobbyist in 1951 would even have become aware that the 11-card set of MLAS contained three non-issued rarities. Probably not by going into a mom&pop store and buying 100 wax packs and finding dozens of the eight commons and none of the other three. It was only later that highly knowledgable hobby vets received inside information about the Roberts, Konstanty and Stanky cards, and were able to request them from Topps. At least, that has been my understanding.

Steve - To me, this is the crux of the argument. No one knows much, at all, about the Lummis cards. Their stickered-counterparts in Sealtest are widely available...but the Lummis cards seem to be exceptionally rare. As I mentioned earlier, I've heard of less than a dozen examples from the entire set trading hands over the last decade. I'm sure some trade privately, but you can't find Lummis cards readily available anywhere -- add in a HOF rookie card to boot, for both Ashburn and Roberts, and it is a significant rarity.

I do think the MLAS is the rarer of the two, but I also tend to believe there's less than ten examples of Roberts / Ashburn in the hobby-

Marc