T206 Blue Old Mill

[chris]

Anyone ever hear of a T206 Blue Old Mill?
There is one for sale here at the National.

[atx840]

Reprint....avoid

[lharri3600]

yep chris RUN!!!!

[chris]

It's not a reprint. Several people have looked at it and it's definitely a real card.

[barrysloate]

Can you fill us in on some more details? I've never heard of that before.

[atx840]

You'd likely know if its real or not, very odd though.

[t206hound]

someone must have a smartphone nearby...

[mrvster]

You always find some gemz.....GET A PIC post it!!

[atx840]

Hopefully it's real. A blue OM sheet could have 50 - 100+ cards on it, I would think a few would have been seen by now. Similar to the brown Lenox/OM, it could be only a few sheets of each was printed.

Maybe it's like the OM overprints and was a one off test run. Patiently waiting

[Leon]

Most very experienced people who have looked at it think it's real. We will have a better idea if SGC, although not infallible, grades it. I think we will know by tomorrow. I haven't personally looked at it.

[MVSNYC]

this thread has the same vibe as our infamous April Fool's Joe Jackson T206 proof...i'd be shocked if it were real. after all these years, and with all of the collective knowledge on the board, no one has ever heard of this before.

[mrvster]

the suspense is killing me!!

I NEED TO SEE THIS CARD

[White Borders]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

this thread has the same vibe as our infamous April Fool's Joe Jackson T206 proof...i'd be shocked if it were real. after all these years, and with all of the collective knowledge on the board, no one has ever heard of this before.

There were also, a few years ago, Old Mill Southern Leagues with black overprint bar(s) that were found to be forgeries by T206Museum.com.

[MVSNYC]

I remember that well.

Anyway, Blue Old Mill sounds very suspect. I'd love to be surprised here, as a new discovery would be great, but I doubt it's legit.

[ethicsprof]

This must be one of those rebacked things.
Just can't see it being real.
best,
barry

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

This must be one of those rebacked things.
Just can't see it being real.
best,
barry

+1

As others have said, I think we would have seen a few others by now...it's been 103 years.

[barrysloate]

So it's real. How is it possible that noone has seen an example before? Or does somebody have one and he's keeping it a secret?

[ethicsprof]

i guess those of us missing the national are having our Ashton K.
moment.

[atx840]

Very neat to see, thanks for taking those Andrew.

[packs]

Does anyone think the font on the front is very black like the reprints we commonly see? That is usually a tell tale sign, no?

[Ronnie73]

The name does look too dark but could just be the picture. When i look at the back of the card on the computer, it looks blue but on my phone, the back looks more black. I think this is gonna be one of those cards that has to be viewed in person.

[packs]

It doesn't look hand cut to me. It looks like a normal card with an abnormal back. SGC determined that the card is standard length and width when it decided not to give it an AUTH grade. That would mean that there would have to be at least one entire sheet of blue backs, no? Why would they print just the one blue back, right?

Would like to see a better picture of the front. The font looks way too dark to me. Even though its slabbed and I trust SGC, I'm thinking reprint. It seems fishy that the ink is blue and the reprinted backs also have blue ink. I would feel the same way about a brown or green Polar Bear back.

[t206hound]

I looked at it today. Appeared factory cut to me. With the lighting at the national I had trouble seeing the color, but ag was with me and immediately said polar bear blue

[AndyG09]

Completely agree with the Erick on the factory cut. 100% legit Polar Bear blue Old Mill back. The owner stated he been getting lots of offers. Glad I was able to hold it and get a good look at it. Pretty cool that it was Ed Walsh on front as well.

Best,

Andy

[ullmandds]

Or maybe someone created this card to prove a point?

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Or maybe someone created this card to prove a point?

+1

Does anyone know where it came from? This isn't one of those behind the table national cards, is it?

[vintagetoppsguy]

How do you guys know it's factory cut? By no means am I saying you're wrong because I don't know enough about T206 to make that determination and I didn't get the chance to look at it in person, but how do you explain the extra large borders?



Edited to add: the outline around the picture is very faint, almost non-existent.

[packs]

If it was hand cut it wouldn't receive a numerical grade. SGC determined it was factory cut.

[AndyG09]

The owner has been in the hobby a long time and is a respectable dealer. Said he bought in box full of tobacco cards twenty years ago. He knew it was different, but waited until now to break it out for the world to see.

[atx840]

Card looks 100% authentic to me, no indication of being hand cut. I think an authentic grade would have helped in this case.

I'm going with faded/altered back.

[rdwyer]

The name is brown. I opened the picture in photoshop and used the color picker.

[ethicsprof]

i'm with rob a and judson.
Black to black/blue---sorta like a bruise.
best,
barry

[rdwyer]

"Old Mill" is definitely blue. The frame is dark grey. I opened the picture in photoshop and used the color picker. Nice pickup.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by rdwyer

"Old Mill" is definitely blue. The frame is dark grey. I opened the picture in photoshop and used the color picker. Nice pickup.

Was the frame printed in a separete pass?

[atx840]

Backs are susceptible to fading/changing. The Hindu was listed as a blank back a few years ago at Legendary, the AB belonged to a fellow boardmember.

[caramelcard]

Looks black to me.

If it appears blue in person, it's the result of black ink fading over time or reacting to something. It wasn't printed with blue ink. Not sure why SGC would give it that designation.

[frankbmd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzRS2...eature=related

[judsonhamlin]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

Looks black to me.

If it appears blue in person, it's the result of black ink fading over time or reacting to something. It wasn't printed with blue ink. Not sure why SGC would give it that designation.

This sums up my feelings as well. I have seen many backs of almost all T206 brands with variations in the depth of color. While not knowing the source and composition of ALC's black dye (or blue dye, for that matter), it seems much more likely that this represents a faded or poorly mixed dye lot, rather than a color variation planned in advance at the time of printing.

[atx840]

SGC concluded the OM was legit then the designation makes sense to me. I do not think a slight miscut (double name) deserves a variation designation however.

[atx840]

Some great reading Bill.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=156986
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=157764
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=157671
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=157305

[atx840]

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...lotIdNo=261031

[David R]

What did it sell for last time? As I recall, it was less than a lot of folks predicted.

[thehoodedcoder]

jesus shi*....just when i was focusing on a drum.

i gotta be honest here and say that the borders on this card alone give me the impression that its a reprint.

like....when you look at it doesn't it just wreak of the standard cobb repint border or what have you? not trying to call it out since its slabbed but like....really?

it takes a serious nut sack for them to lay out a new 1 of 1 back.....if its NOT real.....right? to me that is your WHOLE reputation on a single card/grade.

my whole argument rests on this one sentance: how many t206's look like that from 10 feet away? im going with the answer of "only reprints".

yes. i have in fact held this card in my hand. it looks ok up front in my hand but go* da** in every image scan of this card ot just does not fit in with any other scan image i have seen.

toss in a montage of cards and i guarentee it stands out on boarder......alone. did anyone measure the inside boarders on the card and make sure the square black frame line measures proper to another portrait card? if so then you should be able to compare the overall edge to a proper card and see if this one is lager or smaller....right?

kevin

[ullmandds]

Eek gads...here we go again?!

[obcmac]

I agree with with Kevin...every time I look at it...I think reprint (based on the front). I wonder how many slabbed t206's I've seen...20K? How many of these look like reprints...maybe 5 (of the major grading company slabs...though I don't really recall any others)? Oh and it happens to have a never-seen-before back...seems legit.

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

jesus shi*....just when i was focusing on a drum.

i gotta be honest here and say that the borders on this card alone give me the impression that its a reprint.

like....when you look at it doesn't it just wreak of the standard cobb repint border or what have you? not trying to call it out since its slabbed but like....really?

it takes a serious nut sack for them to lay out a new 1 of 1 back.....if its NOT real.....right? to me that is your WHOLE reputation on a single card/grade.

my whole argument rests on this one sentance: how many t206's look like that from 10 feet away? im going with the answer of "only reprints".

yes. i have in fact held this card in my hand. it looks ok up front in my hand but go* da** in every image scan of this card ot just does not fit in with any other scan image i have seen.

toss in a montage of cards and i guarentee it stands out on boarder......alone. did anyone measure the inside boarders on the card and make sure the square black frame line measures proper to another portrait card? if so then you should be able to compare the overall edge to a proper card and see if this one is lager or smaller....right?

kevin

[ScottFandango]

I don't like the 4 perfectly rounded corners...all look exactly the same...
whats the chance of that in a 100 year old WORN card?

maybe that is why this card sold for less than expected...some people thinks its fake...

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Leon

Most likely he is referring to SGC getting a pass on Net54baseball and PSA not getting passes (on issues such as this). This board, to me, is always a little unfair to PSA. They deserve some of the criticisms, no doubt, but they seem to get blown out of proportion. Whereas SGC does not get taken to task the same way. Hope that helps explain it.

Thank you Leon!

[ullmandds]

SGC doesn't get taken to task like PSA does because SGC doesn't make nearly as many questionable moves as PSA does.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

SGC doesn't get taken to task like PSA does because SGC doesn't make nearly as many questionable moves as PSA does.

SGC is my grader of choice both personally and professionally. I know most of the folks at the company and trust them very much. All of that said, I was just calling it like I see it...just one

opinion.

I should add that I have used BVG on quite a few occasions, for various reasons. I think all 3 of the top companies do a good job.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

SGC doesn't get taken to task like PSA does because SGC doesn't make nearly as many questionable moves as PSA does.

Pete- I feel you, but what about resale value? PSA blows SGC out of the water, not even close, especially T206s... When are SGC advocates going to admit this? Even if you are simply a collector, sooner or later you are going to have to realize a price when you sell. Does this not matter?