More T205 stuff....the "ELUSIVE 20"....and more

[tedzan]

Long-time T205 collectors are quite aware of these ELUSIVE 20 cards, so this info is primarily intended for new collectors of this set. Ten of these T205's have in common
the following. They were printed with just these 6 tobacco backs and are somewhat tougher to find than most other T205's (which were printed with as many as 12 backs).



.................... Factory #42, N.C. ........................................... Factory #30, N.Y. ........................................... Factory #60, N.Y.



............................ Factory # 6, OH



SOMEWHAT TOUGH TEN

.......... Cobb ................................... Barger .................................................. Bender .............................................. Bresnahan ............................................. Camnitz
.

.......... Kroh ....................... Oldring ........................Titus ....................... Smith ...................... Wilson




TOUGH TEN

The following 10 subjects are at a tougher level of difficulty. They were printed with just 5 of the above tobacco backs. As of yet, none of these 10 have been confirmed
with the AMERICAN BEAUTY back.

NOTE The Wiltse (right ear) is included only because this card happens to be in this series of scans. This Wiltse card is a real tough one, as it is one of the Short-Printed
T205 cards.


.. Barger (partial B) .................................... Ford (white cap) ........................................ Rowan ............................................... Walsh



....... Scanlon ................................................ Sweeney ............................................ Vaughn ......................................... Wiltse (right ear)



..Collins (mouth open) ............ Fisher ....................... Kirb White





Of course there are approx. 20 tougher T205 subjects than the above 20, that were Short-Printed (besides the stats and printing irregularities). Invariably, the scarcity of
a particular subject is essentially related to the number of Tobacco backs it was printed with (i.e., less backs = less availability). I hope that these tougher T205 cards will
be discussed in following posts on this thread.

Would appreciate any comments or pictures regarding T205 front/back combos......or, anything T205.


TED Z

[Ronnie73]

Interesting info Ted. So are you saying the Wiltse (right ear) has only 5 known backs so far and the American Beauty back just hasen't been confirmed?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Interesting info Ted. So are you saying the Wiltse (right ear) has only 5 known backs so far and the American Beauty back just hasen't been confirmed?

Ronnie73

That is correct, only 5 of the backs pictured here have been confirmed on this Wiltse card. It is actually a tougher card than the other T205's in that group on display.

TED Z

[Wite3]

Ted,

Not sure this is accurate. Titus, Smith, and Wilson are some of the easiest cards in the set. Joss, Shean and Graham Cubs, Breshnahan mouth open, Chase left ear, Vaughn, Karger, Donahue, Raymond, Suggs, turner, and Wallace no cap should be included in the first group (if not above them).

The problem with just looking at subject back advertising is that there were several printings of different advertising backs. This is why Drum and Hindu are rare, just not as many print runs. Piedmont 42, AB were run in less numbers and Polar bear was run in more. BUT, when you just look at backs, Titus seems to fall in this group...here is the problem, I am convinced that some of this group, like Fisher, Rowan, Sweeney, Vaugn, were replaced for the minor leaguers. This is one reason that I believe these cards were shortprinted and cards like Titus that were not replaced in the PB and Hassan backs are easier to find. I still feel that Polar Bear backs are among the easiest T205 backs...easier or equal to Piedmont 25 backs.

12 minor league players could have been included in place of...

Dahlen
Donahue
Fletcher
Grant
Raymond
Rowan
Scanlon
Suggs
Sweeney
Turner
Vaughn
Wagner

This seems likely but I have not completely confirmed some of the backs for a few of the single prints (like missing a Polar Bear confirmation for Raymond).

And just for fun...I think Karger (tough card) replaced Joss (since the back matrix lines up).

Joshua

[Wite3]

Oh yeah...I have the Wiltse right ear confirmed with six backs, Hassan 30 and 649, HLC, Piedmont 25 and 42, and Polar Bear.

Joshua

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Wite3

Oh yeah...I have the Wiltse right ear confirmed with six backs, Hassan 30 and 649, HLC, Piedmont 25 and 42, and Polar Bear.

Joshua

Thanks for this confirmation, I had a feeling that Wiltse (right ear) had a 6th back....but it isn't an AB. Therefore, this Wiltse is not part of the above group.


(1) I agree with you that the "NOT AS TOUGH TEN" (Bresnahan, Smith and Titus Wilson, etc.) are not that tough relative to the others. However, the point
I am trying to simply make is that these 10 were printed with the same set of tobacco advertisements as the tougher 10. And, this implies to me that they
were all on the same sheet of T205's. Now, correct me if I am wrong here. I do not think there are any other T205 subjects that were printed with this par-
ticular combination of 6 tobacco backs as this group of 20 ?

Speaking about T205 sheets, these 2 scans give us some idea of how these cards were printed. The back scan on the left of my Collins (mouth open) tells
us that this subject was double-printed on the sheet.

My Titus card tells us that Titus and Smith were adjacent cards on the sheet.

.................................................. ............ Collins (mouth open) ............................................... Titus / Smith




(2) Your theory regarding the 12 Minor Leaguers (ML) is very interesting. But, how does one account for the fact that Rowan, Scanlon, Sweeney & Vaughn
were not printed with the Hassan (Factory #649) backs, as were the 12 ML ?

Joshua.....I'm not trying to be picky here, but my T206 front/back "fixation" forces me ask this question.


TED Z

[Ronnie73]

So with a Wiltse (right ear) Hassan 649 confirmed, shouldn't there be another group of 10 or 20 that have the same 6 different backs you listed except the Hassan 649 replacing the American Beauty back?

Ted you are saying that the group of 11 have confirmed AB backs right?