How would you rank these pitchers?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Marichal, Niekro, Perry (given in alphabetical order).

I think my own ranking would be Marichal, Perry, and Niekro, but a lot really depends on how you credit longevity stats.
In terms of PSA 8 value of their RCs, it's Perry Niekro Marichal, but presumably there are other factors there.

PS I would rate these three behind other guys with 60s RCs -- Carlton Palmer Seaver Ryan -- and ahead of Sutton Jenkins Hunter and Tiant, but it's all good for discussion.

[ajquigs]

My gut reaction, without looking at any numbers, is to agree with your order either for one huge game or if given the opportunity to sign them for five years as they were getting to their peaks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's odd that compared to the huge batch of names mentioned in my first post there are so few great pitchers with RCs in the 50s -- only Ford, Koufax, and Gibson come to mind, I guess you could count Bunning and Drysdale.

[nat]

Niekro is a serious underrated pitcher. "Wins above replacement" is a stat that measures how many wins (based on runs allowed and historical runs-to-wins correlations) a pitcher would be expected to generate for his team, above a random AAA guy. Reasonable hall of fame candidates usually have around 60 (although some of the more questionable hall of famers come in far below that). Niekro has almost 100. And that's not all just from hanging around, he's also 50 wins above average (a stat just like the one above, except that it compares him to an average pitcher instead of a AAA guy). His top two seasons by WAR are 10 and 8.9, it usually takes about 8 to be in the MVP discussion.

Perry was a half-step behind him. 93 WAR and 42 WAA. Basically, Niekro had one more really good year than Perry, although at his best Perry was slightly better. (Tops out at 11 WAR for a season, which is pretty freaking impressive.)

Marichal, great though he was, isn't really in their class. Niekro and Perry pitched about 2000 more innings than Marichal did. The difference is even more dramatic if you pay attention to the extra value that they generated, basically Niekro and Perry had Marichal's career, and then 2/3rds of another border-line hall of fame career on top of it. About 62 WAR for Marichal, FWIW.

As for desirability of baseball cards, I don't really know. Niekro played for some terrible Braves teams, which probably holds down value of his cards. Perry played for lots of teams and isn't really claimed by any one fan base, which probably does the same for his. Marichal spent practically his whole career with the Giants, which has got to help. SMR gives the price of a 1961 Topps Marichal in NM at 750. For the Niekro rookie it's 425 (1965), and for Perry it's 750 (1962). (So maybe I'm off on the Perry thing.)

[begsu1013]

kinda partial to niekro myself:

http://www.psacard.com/PSASetRegistr....aspx?s=179998

[Rookiemonster]

Marichal
Niekro
Perry

Marichal has the most wins during the 60s .list of some pitchers from the 60s.
Koufax
Gibson
Ford
Carlton
Seaver
Ryan
Jenkins
Niekro
Perry
Cuellar
Katt
Drysdale
Bunning

Not many years played in the 60s for some of of these guys . But it still adds up to compition for cy youngs and league leader marks .

I know I might have missed a few .

[Vintagevault13]

Marichal
Niekro
Perry

I love the uniqueness of the knuckleballer in MLB history. Pretty small fraternity.


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[jason.1969]

Also picking Marichal, Perry, Niekro.

As an aside, I got out my HOF cards from the 60s and early 70s and tried to make two teams, AL vs NL.

The stack of NL pitchers was gigantic...Seaver, Koufax, Drysdale, Ryan, Niekro, Gibson, Perry, Spahn, Jenkins, Sutton, Carlton, ...

The AL stack had Ford, Fingers, Wilhelm, and Palmer.

Any theories why the NL had so many more aces?

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[brian1961]

While working my shift, a thought flashed through my memory on Mr. Perry. Two of Gaylord's best years were 1966 and 1972. If memory serves, during BOTH years, Perry had extraordinary seasons going into the All-Star break. I checked SABR and sure enough, my memory did not deceive. In 1966, his SABR feature article said he was 12-1 at the All-Star break and 20-2 on August 20th----WOW! Gaylord was as hot as an old steel playground slide on a 100-degree cloudless July afternoon. Virtually unbeatable.

As for 1972, Gaylord's SABR feature reported that baseball historian extraordinaire Bill James said Gaylord's 1972 season was the best by an American League pitcher since Lefty Grove in 1931! Furthermore, in '72 Gaylord toed the slab long and hard for the fifth place Cleveland Indians, who only scored an average of 3.0 runs per game. Perry was something else.

Then, in each of those years after the break, actually about late August, he seemed to lose something. His great records began crumbling; not to smithereens, just nowhere near what they looked like they were going to be. Too bad. What happened on those occasions? Anyone remember?

Ya got me. Maybe he suffered from an advanced case of dry mouth. Hey guys, that's nothing to spit at, in more ways than one!

----Brian Powell

[Vintagevault13]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

Also picking Marichal, Perry, Niekro.

As an aside, I got out my HOF cards from the 60s and early 70s and tried to make two teams, AL vs NL.

The stack of NL pitchers was gigantic...Seaver, Koufax, Drysdale, Ryan, Niekro, Gibson, Perry, Spahn, Jenkins, Sutton, Carlton, ...

The AL stack had Ford, Fingers, Wilhelm, and Palmer.

Any theories why the NL had so many more aces?

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This fact is one of the reasons why I argue that Aaron should get more credit when compared to his AL counterparts. Nothing against Mantle et al, but the pitching was simply much stronger in the NL, especially in the 1960's.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

Also picking Marichal, Perry, Niekro.

As an aside, I got out my HOF cards from the 60s and early 70s and tried to make two teams, AL vs NL.

The stack of NL pitchers was gigantic...Seaver, Koufax, Drysdale, Ryan, Niekro, Gibson, Perry, Spahn, Jenkins, Sutton, Carlton, ...

The AL stack had Ford, Fingers, Wilhelm, and Palmer.

Any theories why the NL had so many more aces?

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Same deal on hitters. Mays Aaron Clemente Banks McCovey Musial (first few years) Snider (same) Stargell B Williams Brock Mathews Cepeda Rose seems a lot more than. Mantle Kaline Yaz Killebrew and Brooks with F Robinson spilt. Forgot some maybe. On pitchers, AL side, you forgot Catfish.