Card doctoring...

[Peter_Spaeth]

is the hobby's dirty little secret. It is interesting to me that so many of the newer collectors (and some of the old) including those spending large sums of money seem to think that if one of the major TPGs slab a card, it's legitimate. And the logical corollary of that is sellers are judged only by their customer service --if they get you the card you bought well-packaged in a reasonable time, they're a superstar.

But it ain't necessarily so. Many of us know better and know that doctoring is rampant. To an extent, one could say, well who cares, once slabbed a card becomes a commodity and the alteration is irrelevant. On the other hand, I suspect a fair number of collectors would not buy even slabbed cards if they knew they had been altered, or deal with sellers who traffic in altered cards.

But the dilemma is this. Those who know are just not going to go on a public forum and name names. And the reason is this: for the most part, we don't have incontrovertible proof, we didn't see anyone do it or overhear an admission, it's more in the nature of knowledge from our long history in the hobby, the reputation of certain people among graders and honest dealers we know, observation about the cards certain people buy versus those they sell, observation about cards purchased that to a trained eye appear altered, and so forth.

So what's the right thing to do? I guess you could say I and others are (plural starting with p) for not coming forward and naming names and only making statements like the above in general terms. And maybe that would be correct.

Anyhow, at the risk of being vilified, I put the topic out there for discussion.

[hcv123]

I for one think it would be completely reasonable to raise questions/suspicions stating the facts as you understand them or your own personal experience (as that) supporting the question(s). That could be the start of a conversation at the end of which each person can make their own decision or draw their own conclusions - I don't think it would be fair or reasonable to name call or make unsubstantiated accusations. The PWCC Joe Dimaggio card thread would be an example.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I am a small fish in the collecting world. It used to be that I was a small fish out of necessity. While that is somewhat still the case, it is now also a result of some of what you are saying, Peter. I observe a lot here on Net54, at the National, etc. It is funny and ironic how certain things come back around full circle and end up devouring themselves. I remember being a teenager and looking at dealers' ads in magazines like SCD and Tuff Stuff. You never really knew what ex or nm meant because it was different for every dealer. Now we have dealers trading in altered cards and such, but it is all okay because, as you say, those dealers provide impeccable service as they connect customers with the cards that have become slabbed commodities. The dealers can simply plead ignorance and defer to the TPGs. Nevermind that professional grading was supposed to regulate the hobby. I used to bristle when you wrote "stuff trumps all." However, I now know it to be true.

Thank goodness there are good people still left in this hobby. I have become content to work on little off the radar, low budget projects that few here would even care about, in hopes that some of the graft you describe will be cleaned up. I am not holding my breath.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[JeremyW]

"once slabbed a card becomes a commodity and the alteration is irrelevant"

This is the root of the problem.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

"once slabbed a card becomes a commodity and the alteration is irrelevant"

This is the root of the problem.

Yup. We as collectors hand over all our power with this, and simply repeat it. We accept it and form long lines to have it done again. Education and knowledge take a back seat to what someone behind a curtain says. In this regard, TPGs have simply made doctoring more acceptable as long as it passes by them...b/c, of course, its graded.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Yup. We as collectors hand over all our power with this, and simply repeat it. We accept it and form long lines to have it done again. Education and knowledge take a back seat to what someone behind a curtain says. In this regard, TPGs have simply made doctoring more acceptable as long as it passes by them...b/c, of course, its graded.

It doesn't help when you hear people talking about resubmitting cards over & over again until they get the grade that they feel is appropriate.

[mckinneyj]

> if one of the major TPGs slab a card, it's legitimate

> once slabbed a card becomes a commodity

> observation about the cards certain people buy versus those they sell


These and other thoughts have recently occurred to me as well and I find myself left jaded a bit and wondering what the future might be. The fact that we even need TPGs I find somewhat disconcerting... I'd rather that all cards were "raw" and authentic and unaltered (and there are differing opinions on what constitutes alteration for that matter) - but that's not our world. I wonder if someday should I need or want to liquidate my collection will uncertainty of how these traits are viewed have negatively impacted today's value - I suppose that its just a hobby; but still... I sometimes think that one big scandal involving a major TPG will crush that value - again, just a hobby; but we're all acquiring/buying in a market that is heavily propped up by the influence that TPGs have on it. Just another small fish writing here...

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by mckinneyj

> if one of the major TPGs slab a card, it's legitimate

> once slabbed a card becomes a commodity

> observation about the cards certain people buy versus those they sell


These and other thoughts have recently occurred to me as well and I find myself left jaded a bit and wondering what the future might be. The fact that we even need TPGs I find somewhat disconcerting... I'd rather that all cards were "raw" and authentic and unaltered (and there are differing opinions on what constitutes alteration for that matter) - but that's not our world. I wonder if someday should I need or want to liquidate my collection will uncertainty of how these traits are viewed have negatively impacted today's value - I suppose that its just a hobby; but still... I sometimes think that one big scandal involving a major TPG will crush that value - again, just a hobby; but we're all acquiring/buying in a market that is heavily propped up by the influence that TPGs have on it. Just another small fish writing here...

If PSA gets caught in a major scandal that send hoards of customers away, all the values collapse. This could be a thesis, but just imagine that you woke up tomorrow and every PSA card was 10 cents on the dollar...

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

If PSA gets caught in a major scandal that send hoards of customers away, all the values collapse. This could be a thesis, but just imagine that you woke up tomorrow and every PSA card was 10 cents on the dollar...

IMHO, Steve, that will never happen because I believe demand is like the step pyramid for scarce to downright rare, significant vintage cards. If the upper crust of the demand supporting the price falls off, there is that next layer only a small step down to catch it. Contrast that with the demand for the cards of the young, current, but unproven for the long run phenoms. That demand, creating current high prices, is much more like an extension ladder, swaying in the breeze, susceptible to falling over and all the way down when the new "superstar" proves himself to be fatally flawed or simply overrated.

Good luck in you collecting, and hopefully Michigan will eventually give the Spartans and Oh how we hate Ohio State better competition in the future!

Larry

[Marchillo]

Funny this post got added today. Today I had two cards posted with SGC that were deemed "color added". I've had all other cards always receive a grade and then today 2/6 are color added. Funny thing is I bought the cards at least 6 months apart from different sellers and it was a 62 Topps and a 75 Topps. So wasn't like it was 2 - 71 Topps from the same batch from the same seller. I think it's relevant to the OP because I've never had this happen in dozens of sumissioms and now 2 in a single submission? Maybe one was obvious so they took a harder look at the rest? Kind of supports the notion that maybe some of my other submissions had alterations but they weren't picked up.

[drcy]

Provenance, provenance, provenance

Yes, many graded cards have been altered, and a common problem with graded baseball card collectors is many don't give one hoot, one care, where the card came from, just its current entombed grade. If they inquired, even insisted, on documented history-- even if merely having the seller of a gem mint card demonstrating that he got the card in that condition--, many alterations would be revealed.

The Importance of Provenance in Collecting

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by drcy

Provenance, provenance, provenance

Yes, many graded cards have been altered, and a common problem with graded baseball card collectors is many don't give one hoot, one care, where the card came from, just its current entombed grade. If they inquired, even insisted, on documented history-- even if merely having the seller of a gem mint card demonstrating that he got the card in that condition--, many alterations would be revealed.

The Importance of Provenance in Collecting

That "not giving a hoot" is a problem.

The TPGs allowed so much more "collectors" cough investors in. They brought tons and tons of money. No more barrier to enter the hobby, no knowledge is needed and TPGs opened that door. SO while ALL our collections have appreciated, I believe the fraud has increased and the name of the game is getting some by the goalie into a slab. It has helped the hobby economically and hurt it colleting wise...and it will never be the same. Most of it is just a commodity now.

[Leon]

Unless we see the act of altering first hand we can't really say for sure (unless there is an admission )? That is a big issue.


And since we are on the subject, restoration and altering have been around a long time. No doubt before this too. The write-in is a familiar name too.





.

[Johnny630]

Throughout my TPG experience I have found that if SGC gives one of my cards a numerical grade I can take it to the bank that its real/authentic and unaltered. I trust SGC, imo they're accurate and very strick on their assesment of issues such as authenticity and alterations.

I'll buy SGC cards all day long over PSA.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

Unless we see the act of altering first hand we can't really say for sure (unless there is an admission )? That is a big issue.


And since we are on the subject, restoration and altering have been around a long time. No doubt before this too. The write-in is a familiar name too.





.

pretty much as leon said...although even with cases with proof(before and after images) which appear periodically on this board...nothing seems to ever happen.

the cards should be destroyed or somehow permanently labelled as such... and TPG'ing companies should be held accountable for their errors.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Well you always run the risk of someone posting the exact card on a prior sale in which the cards look identical but for the alteration.

So theres a ticking time bomb and musical chairs as the card keeps changing hands before the music ends


I have often touted an ownership registry with pictures so you can tell if your 1952 Mantle is claimed to be owned by someone else and it would also aid in the alteration issue, maybe I'm before my time there as well.

[WillowGrove]

Leon - thanks for posting that from Lew.

I guess I should not be surprised but seeing such details and proof in print from so long ago, kinda confirms for me that a lot of doctoring is being done today.

I've been seeing/handling t206's, etc since the late 1970s and I don't remember seeing so many sharp old cards as I do today. Could they have come out of olde timie collections? I guess. But if I was a betting man, and I am, I think doctoring is pretty darn wide-spread.

Sad face.

peter

[DeanH3]

Unless you had that incontrovertible evidence, naming names would only get you into an argument. Those who are named would obviously deny the accusation and we'd go round and round. Jeff L. warned us of Mastro and he denied everything until he got busted by the Feds. Might make for an epic net54 thread though.

Not to hi-jack your thread as this might be a little off target, but pertains to card doctoring. I've wondered about the time line of progression of the sophistication of alterations. What kind of alterations were being done 20, 15, 10 years ago vs 5 years up to current techniques? Where alterations much "simpler" so to speaker 15 years ago which made them "easier" to detect? Could that mean earlier graded cards actually being less likely to have some kind of alteration due to the types of alterations being done at that time easier to detect? Could be a totally naive thought, but a thought popped into my head.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

Unless you had that incontrovertible evidence, naming names would only get you into an argument. Those who are named would obviously deny the accusation and we'd go round and round. Jeff L. warned us of Mastro and he denied everything until he got busted by the Feds. Might make for an epic net54 thread though.

Not to hi-jack your thread as this might be a little off target, but pertains to card doctoring. I've wondered about the time line of progression of the sophistication of alterations. What kind of alterations were being done 20, 15, 10 years ago vs 5 years up to current techniques? Where alterations much "simpler" so to speaker 15 years ago which made them "easier" to detect? Could that mean earlier graded cards actually being less likely to have some kind of alteration due to the types of alterations being done at that time easier to detect? Could be a totally naive thought, but a thought popped into my head.

Dean others would know the answer better than I do. I suspect that since we're only talking about cardboard, this isn't an evolving science to any significant extent. The famous VCBC 7 article from 1996 quotes Dan Desmond as saying good alteration is undetectable, and even if that is not the case, I suspect part of the problem is that for your 8 or 15 or 25 dollar fee you aren't buying a crime lab, you are buying a quick look. I think the TPGs are very good for the most part at what they do, but with a number of motivated and capable card doctors, and not much time or technology to review, and human error, you are going to get your fair share of altered cards that get through the process, even if you don't buy a more nefarious theory of TPG.

PS One reason the very early grades might be more reliable even if more lax numerically is that there were so many more raw cards to send in for the first time. So many submissions now are stuff being recycled. But again I don't really know.

[Throttlesteer]

You're handcuffed in a way. The internet has brought accessibility to cards you probably wouldn't be able to find otherwise. The ability to identify alterations, prior to purchase, is impossible without having the card in hand. It doesn't matter if it's encapsulated or raw; Your chances of getting duped certainly go up if you buy raw from an unknown source. But, some of the more respected names still make mistakes. They turn an awful lot of cards in a short period time and, like many, also trust the grade without further examination. Does it make sense for sellers to break out the eye loupe for every graded card they sell? I don't like the doctoring any more than anyone else. But, it's hard to make a case against someone without firsthand proof, as Leon pointed out. It would be irresponsible to "out" someone and ruin a good reputation, simply because a single card graded by a respected grader ended up being altered. Just my two centavos.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

Unless you had that incontrovertible evidence, naming names would only get you into an argument.

Many of us have provided concrete examples (before and after pics) of cards slabbed by the TPA's - one of my examples showed the same altered card slabbed and re-slabbed by multiple TPA's as an experiment (not mine) to see what they could get away with. The answer was: 'anything'.

The result of my posting was that I was labeled a trouble-maker and basically told to shut up by more than one Net54 member. As long as there is money to be made, none of those who are profiting want to hear about it. Who's profiting? Most of those who collect slabbed cards.

The same is true on the autograph side, which is why you will see autograph experts going after the low-hanging fruit (blatant forgers who set up their own TPA's, which none of us profit through) and leaving the big TPA's alone. As long as the money keeps flowing everyone is happy.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Many of us have provided concrete examples (before and after pics) of cards slabbed by the TPA's - one of my examples showed the same altered card slabbed and re-slabbed by multiple TPA's as an experiment (not mine) to see what they could get away with. The answer was: 'anything'.

The result of my posting was that I was labeled a trouble-maker and basically told to shut up by more than one Net54 member. As long as there is money to be made, none of those who are profiting want to hear about it. Who's profiting? Most of those who collect slabbed cards.

The same is true on the autograph side, which is why you will see autograph experts going after the low-hanging fruit (blatant forgers who set up their own TPA's, which none of us profit through) and leaving the big TPA's alone. As long as the money keeps flowing everyone is happy.

As I said, if a rule was instituted that the grading margin of error had to included next to the grade on the label, the card owners would protest far more than the graders. It's known as "protecting their investment."

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by drcy

As I said, if a rule was instituted that the grading margin of error had to included next to the grade on the label, the card owners would protest far more than the graders. It's known as "protecting their investment."

Will never work. TPAs will Consider grading for commons, diluting the grading populations, and "prove" that less than 1% are altered. Then all slabs will say the grade is accurate with 1% margin of error. Kinda understood already since they do have a guarantee reserve on their financial statements.

Just like the law passed some years ago that certain companies must give employees 90-days notice if there may be a plant closure. Since then all employee paychecks give notice that there may be a plant closure.

[drcy]

I know it would likely never happen, but duly note that I said put the margin of error on the label, not a different number. The 1% example you use isn't the margin of error, it's a different calculation. That someone calls his dog a cat doesn't make it a cat.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drcy

As I said, if a rule was instituted that the grading margin of error had to included next to the grade on the label, the card owners would protest far more than the graders. It's known as "protecting their investment."

That's rich. "Grading margin of error" would mean that if I send in a 6 it comes back a 5.5 or 5 and that's okay. It means that if a big auction house or a popular dealer sends in a 6, it comes back as a 7 and that's okay.

But I wasn't referring to margin of error in grading. I was referring to ignoring doctoring of cards for some submitters.

[rainier2004]

How about we just stop trusting flips and make educated decisions for ourselves? It all comes down to capitalism in the end...I for one try to avoid doctored cards and whether its graded or not matters very little in my assessment.

[jimjim]

While I have been in the hobby for over 30 years, I am a born-again card collector. I haven’t seriously collected cards since the early 1990s. During my break from cards, I focused on autographs and memorabilia. When I started collecting cards again last year, I started to buy graded cards not because I like them, but because I was looking for the security of them not been altered. This thread is extremely depressing to me. I really don’t care if the card is graded or not, as I just want a nice looking card. I actually prefer raw cards. I mainly buy graded cards for financial security in case somebody has to sell them in the future from my family. I don’t want them to get ripped off. If the market comes tumbling down, then I guess it was all for not!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jimjim

While I have been in the hobby for over 30 years, I am a born-again card collector. I haven’t seriously collected cards since the early 1990s. During my break from cards, I focused on autographs and memorabilia. When I started collecting cards again last year, I started to buy graded cards not because I like them, but because I was looking for the security of them not been altered. This thread is extremely depressing to me. I really don’t care if the card is graded or not, as I just want a nice looking card. I actually prefer raw cards, because that is how I collected as a youngster. I mainly buy graded cards for financial security in case somebody has to sell them in the future from my family. I don’t want them to get ripped off. If the market comes tumbling down, then I guess it was all for not!

My guess is it won't come tumbling down anytime soon. Chances are they will need to get then into the latest greatest slab though.

I feel way safer buying raw cards. With the Mexican guy with the fake cards in PSA slabs, the cracked and resealed PSA slabs, and the fact it is harder to actually see/inspect the card through the layer of plastic.

Another twist to this card doctoring thread. Like Scott I have experimented with sending a bad card to the grading companies, has anybody else and would you share the results?

Here are mine, I send the same counterfeit card to the big 3.
Beckett-Rejected on only attempt.
SGC-Rejected on all 3 attemps
PSA-Slabbed on all 5 attempts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

My guess is it won't come tumbling down anytime soon. Chances are they will need to get then into the latest greatest slab though.

I feel way safer buying raw cards. With the Mexican guy with the fake cards in PSA slabs, the cracked and resealed PSA slabs, and the fact it is harder to actually see/inspect the card through the layer of plastic.

Another twist to this card doctoring thread. Like Scott I have experimented with sending a bad card to the grading companies, has anybody else and would you share the results?

Here are mine, I send the same counterfeit card to the big 3.
Beckett-Rejected on only attempt.
SGC-Rejected on all 3 attemps
PSA-Slabbed on all 5 attempts.

I hope it wasn't a Jordan RC.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bnorth

My guess is it won't come tumbling down anytime soon. Chances are they will need to get then into the latest greatest slab though.

I feel way safer buying raw cards. With the Mexican guy with the fake cards in PSA slabs, the cracked and resealed PSA slabs, and the fact it is harder to actually see/inspect the card through the layer of plastic.

Another twist to this card doctoring thread. Like Scott I have experimented with sending a bad card to the grading companies, has anybody else and would you share the results?

Here are mine, I send the same counterfeit card to the big 3.
Beckett-Rejected on only attempt.
SGC-Rejected on all 3 attemps
PSA-Slabbed on all 5 attempts.

Beckett and SGC are very good at grading pre-war and vintage. PSA, not so much, imo. Most of that has to do with experience of the vintage graders....again, imo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Beckett and SGC are very good at grading pre-war and vintage. PSA, not so much, imo. Most of that has to do with experience of the vintage graders....again, imo.

Many people report Beckett grades, or at least has graded, sheet cut cards.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Many people report Beckett grades, or at least has graded, sheet cut cards.

Yes, and the earth used to be considered flat too. I have had lengthy discussions about those sheet cuts. To me that particular incident doesn't take away from them having one of the best vintage graders in the business and consistently grading cards correctly when others won't or can't. Again, just my experience.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Many people report Beckett grades, or at least has graded, sheet cut cards.

I thought at one time they openly acknowledged grading sheet cut cards? I have no problem with it, just as long as they state it on their website. I just looked, but couldn't find it.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by jimjim

While I have been in the hobby for over 30 years, I am a born-again card collector. I haven’t seriously collected cards since the early 1990s. During my break from cards, I focused on autographs and memorabilia. When I started collecting cards again last year, I started to buy graded cards not because I like them, but because I was looking for the security of them not been altered. This thread is extremely depressing to me. I really don’t care if the card is graded or not, as I just want a nice looking card. I actually prefer raw cards, because that is how I collected as a youngster. I mainly buy graded cards for financial security in case somebody has to sell them in the future from my family. I don’t want them to get ripped off. If the market comes tumbling down, then I guess it was all for not!

I am a firm believer that being knowledgeable and having one's eyes open makes for a superior collecting experience.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by jimjim

I actually prefer raw cards, because that is how I collected as a youngster.

You said it, not me.

[ALR-bishop]

Ungraded Cards are not “raw”, they are cards in their natural state

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Ungraded Cards are not “raw”, they are cards in their natural state

Sort of like strippers and steak tartare.

[ALR-bishop]

Yes, in the sense that those things would look worse encased in plastic as well.