PSA 10 E98 Wagner mistake

[Leon]

Since this is rather important, especially considering what was spoken about on the board, I want to start a new thread to make sure the issue gets addressed correctly. In the Black Swamp find there is a PSA 10 E98 Wagner. The one that was previously shown on the board was an operational mistake that PSA made. I had a fairly long chat with Chris Ivy about it today as well as Joe Orlando. Chris and Joe both said that when they looked at the card in the holder they knew immediately there was an issue. The PSA 10 card IS graded correctly but when it was to be put in it's holder the PSA operations folks DID in fact pick up one of the PSA 8.5s and put it in the PSA 10 holder by mistake. That being said the certification number was correct, only the card in the holder wasn't. The mistake has been corrected and the 8.5 is in it's correct holder and the 10 is in it's correct holder now. Joe made special mention that it is to Heritage Auctions credit that the mistake was brought to his attention very quickly (it has been in it's correct holder for days now), fixed and no one was hurt by it. It deserves being noted again that this was not a grading error but rather an operational one. He is upset with his company for making the mistake and is addressing the issue internally so it won't happen again. Say what you want to about PSA, but each of the few times I Have spoken with Joe O. I came away being impressed with his honesty, integrity and love of the hobby.


http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...No=68001#Photo


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[wonkaticket]

You cant ask for more, seems fair. Kudos to PSA, and extra kudos to HA.

Cheers,

John

[big80s]

Thanks for posting that, Leon. Very interesting story and I'm obviously glad to hear PSA took care of the issue. All of my interactions with Joe have been along the same lines - he seems like a good, honest guy.

[CobbSpikedMe]

It's nice to hear they fixed their mistake. And kudos to all on the board who saw the overgraded card in the slab and spoke their minds regarding the inconsistency of the grade and the card. Well done everyone. And what good eyes you have.

[4815162342]

Thanks Leon for posting this, and good job Chris and Joe O!

[GregMitch34]

Good to hear about respect for Heritage. I have not dealt with them on cards yet but they did a handle a rare book this year very well and now I have a bunch of more "literary" lots and rock and roll lots (including a John Lennon letter to me) coming this fall so glad to hear about their honesty and transparency.

[ullmandds]

Nice rectification!! Now the real 10...what a f'in blazer!!!! Can't wait to see the hammer on that one!

[Matthew H]

Very cool. When I saw the green psa 9 in the near complete set I was thinking how it actually looks nicer then the 10... This makes more sense now; I still think the green one looks better in the scan though.

[Exhibitman]

Classic...

[esd10]

i think for the most part psa gets it right but there are times you scratch your head wonder what they are thinking but nice job catching the mistake befor someone paid alot more money for it than needed.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Leon

I had a fairly long chat with Chris Ivy about it today as well as Joe Orlando. Chris and Joe both said that when they looked at the card in the holder they knew immediately there was an issue. The PSA 10 card IS graded correctly but when it was to be put in it's holder the PSA operations folks DID in fact pick up one of the PSA 8.5s and put it in the PSA 10 holder by mistake. .
.

So I could see how Joe might have missed this since it is not his job to verify grades but Chris noticed there was an issue with the 10 but put up a picture of it anyway before contacting PSA to correct it?

Additionally, since the 10 is sandwiched between two 8s based on the sequential cert numbers (note to OP who thinks there are only 3 Wagners when there were 46 graded from this find) how did the 10 get switched with an 8.5? My understanding is that cards get assigned cert numbers upon receipt and for good reason are left in order in the boxes once graded. Flips are printed and cards are holdered in order.

Greg

[Leon]

Originally Posted by botn

.... how did the 10 get switched with an 8.5? ...


Greg

Maybe the cards got out of order and it was a mistake?

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Once again praise praise praise for PSA making a mistake. This time enough attention had been brought to the card to warrant looking further into it. Heck it isn't tough to find a so called 8 or high to call it a 10 make the switch and say all is fine.

If these were modern cards they would be lucky to get an 8 with the registry being off and the color bleeding off the borders. So much attention is given to sharp corners and centering it is ridiculous. The 10 has obvious immediate visual defects I just don't get how the cards warrant the applied grades. The card in the first 10 holder that is know an 8.5 has so many obvious defects (the big one is the extra red color on the back plus the other defects mentioned in the 10 card.I don't know how it warrants anything more than a 6.

Great looking cards but not to the level of the grades. If you think so that is your and opinion and you are free to spend your money as such. To me I am not in this game, even if I could afford it.

Lee

[Cardboard Junkie]

Great looking cards but not to the level of the grades.
Lee[/QUOTE]

I agree, the first thing I noticed about this card is the imperfect registration. It is a beautiful card but not a 10. dave

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me, the whole concept of the 10 (or 98) grade is meaningless and rather arbitrary (although great marketing). If a card is Mint it should be essentially flawless, so the notion of an even higher grade makes no sense.

[botn]

Originally Posted by leon

maybe the cards got out of order and it was a mistake?

rose-colored-glasses.jpg

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Leon

Since this is rather important, especially considering what was spoken about on the board, I want to start a new thread to make sure the issue gets addressed correctly. In the Black Swamp find there is a PSA 10 E98 Wagner. The one that was previously shown on the board was an operational mistake that PSA made. I had a fairly long chat with Chris Ivy about it today as well as Joe Orlando. Chris and Joe both said that when they looked at the card in the holder they knew immediately there was an issue. The PSA 10 card IS graded correctly but when it was to be put in it's holder the PSA operations folks DID in fact pick up one of the PSA 8.5s and put it in the PSA 10 holder by mistake. That being said the certification number was correct, only the card in the holder wasn't. The mistake has been corrected and the 8.5 is in it's correct holder and the 10 is in it's correct holder now. Joe made special mention that it is to Heritage Auctions credit that the mistake was brought to his attention very quickly (it has been in it's correct holder for days now), fixed and no one was hurt by it. It deserves being noted again that this was not a grading error but rather an operational one. He is upset with his company for making the mistake and is addressing the issue internally so it won't happen again. Say what you want to about PSA, but each of the few times I Have spoken with Joe O. I came away being impressed with his honesty, integrity and love of the hobby.


http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...No=68001#Photo


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now if Joe could just do the same thing with autographs. gets some heads rolling over there joe!

[Cardboard Junkie]

"Say what you want to about PSA, but each of the few times I Have spoken with Joe O. I came away being impressed with his honesty, integrity and love of the hobby." (Leon)



It takes one to know one aloha, dave pierson

[travrosty]

joe o . doesnt comment on laser printed autographs, why it happened, how it happened, how he is going to make sure it doesnt happen again, how many could possible still be out there in encapsulated holders.

i have noticed when it comes to the TOUGH questions, he clams up and won't say anything. always no comment.

softballs he hits out of the park, however.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Hey Travis, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. (I just wonder what he's doing in that handbasket) dave.

[buymycards]

When my dentist graded my teeth he gave my molars "8"'s and I could have sworn they would grade out as 9's. Must have been off centered or maybe print marks.

[glynparson]

I have found him to be a good guy. You must remember he does have a job to do as President of PSA which includes protecting the brand and remember he comes from law school so he has that lawyer training. I do think he cares about the hobby, he was a collector long before he went to work at PSA. I've had some issues over the years, as every dealer does at some point in time, and I found Joe always handled them professionally and courteously. I know others did not fair so well, hi Dan, but I've never had an issue that they didn't at least attempt to help resolve.

[danmckee]

Leon, while Joe was being honest and full of integrity and caring about the hobby, did you bother to ask him why he never paid me my legal fees after I won my lawsuit?

The back of PSA's submission form at the time stated that if you won a judgement against them, that they would pay your legal fees.

When I called Joe and asked for the fees, he screamed and hung up on me.

honest, integrity, caring for the hobby.

Dan Mckee

[Cardboard Junkie]

I could carve a better man out of a banana. dave

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

I could carve a better man out of a banana. dave

But can you stick the banana where the sun don't shine? I am sure that would be a great place for it. Or you could stick it in your pie hole so stupid things quit coming out of it? aloha

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Leon

But can you stick the banana where the sun don't shine? I am sure that would be a great place for it. Or you could stick it in your pie hole so stupid things quit coming out of it? aloha

harsh.

[Cardboard Junkie]

edited

[danmckee]

Peon Luckey?????????

That is funny! but not cool.

Leon is the board master and I adhere to his policies

still funny and I hope he laughs too but Leon is not a Peon, he is a friend and though we disagree sometimes, he still runs this board and I agree with all of his decisions regarding the board.

Dan

[botn]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Leon, while Joe was being honest and full of integrity and caring about the hobby, did you bother to ask him why he never paid me my legal fees after I won my lawsuit?

The back of PSA's submission form at the time stated that if you won a judgement against them, that they would pay your legal fees.

When I called Joe and asked for the fees, he screamed and hung up on me.

honest, integrity, caring for the hobby.

Dan Mckee

Dan I would do the same thing to you if you called me to simply say "Hello". At least Joe took your call. He will not take mine ever again.

Seriously though, in this thread Leon has already described or characterized Heritage and Joe as having integrity and caring about the hobby. I attempted to engage him in a discussion to no avail. Leon has spoken...or not.

Hope all is well.

Greg

[Cardboard Junkie]

I know one thing for sure. Will Rogers never met J. O. aloha, dave.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by botn

Dan I would do the same thing to you if you called me to simply say "Hello". At least Joe took your call. He will not take mine ever again.

Seriously though, in this thread Leon has already described or characterized Heritage and Joe as having integrity and caring about the hobby. I attempted to engage him in a discussion to no avail. Leon has spoken...or not.

Hope all is well.

Greg

Maybe if you didn't act like a freaking idiot he would speak with you too?

[botn]

Originally Posted by Leon

Maybe if you didn't act like a freaking idiot he would speak with you too?

I will never be as good as you are at kissin' ass.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by botn

Dan I would do the same thing to you if you called me to simply say "Hello". At least Joe took your call. He will not take mine ever again.

Seriously though, in this thread Leon has already described or characterized Heritage and Joe as having integrity and caring about the hobby. I attempted to engage him in a discussion to no avail. Leon has spoken...or not.

Hope all is well.

Greg

It has been many years but if I remember correctly he was anxious to talk to me at the time because of something I posted on here about him in court.

He got the last dig in as he hung up on me.

You have to love our legal system though, I do nothing wrong, I have an item of mine lost by a company, I go through the proper channels to recoup my funds, and I still lose $1800 in legal fees and travel that I was not allowed to add to the lawsuit.

No wonder people get shot after court rulings.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by danmckee

It has been many years but if I remember correctly he was anxious to talk to me at the time because of something I posted on here about him in court.

He got the last dig in as he hung up on me.

You have to love our legal system though, I do nothing wrong, I have an item of mine lost by a company, I go through the proper channels to recoup my funds, and I still lose $1800 in legal fees and travel that I was not allowed to add to the lawsuit.

No wonder people get shot after court rulings.

If I just lost a court case to you I would probably hang up on you too. IF the law said the loser had to pay court and legal fees then they should have done it. If not, then I doubt his company would want to pony up. I understand your frustration. Joe never said he, or his company, was perfect. Actually, as a good friend of mine, I am glad you won Dan. That doesn't make me think Joe or PSA is evil though. It makes me think they lost your Magie card and had to pay for their error.

[ullmandds]

Lawsuits rarely end amicably! Some douche bag ran over my parked motorcycle a few years ago in front of 10 to 15 witnesses! he was so nice when it happened but when it came time to retribution he was a prick! People's true colors tend to reveal themselves in situations such as these.

Similarly I lost the use of my motorcycle for the whole summer and countless hours of my time trying to get this douche to pay never to be reimbursed!

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Leon

If I just lost a court case to you I would probably hang up on you too. IF the law said the loser had to pay court and legal fees then they should have done it. If not, then I doubt his company would want to pony up. I understand your frustration. Joe never said he, or his company, was perfect. Actually, as a good friend of mine, I am glad you won Dan. That doesn't make me think Joe or PSA is evil though. It makes me think they lost your Magie card and had to pay for their error.

uh ok, my point is:

PSA stated on the back of their forms at the time that if you won a judgement against them, they would cover your legal fees.

I agree it wasn't legally a responsibility for Joe to cover them but I spoke up in this thread about his integrity and honesty and to me, not paying me when the back of your form states that you will, is not a sign of integrity or honesty.

Also, I might add that after we won the judgemment, we were not paid until my council sent a letter thereatening to have a Sheriff watch PSA open their incoming mail and to collect my funds then.

A check was Fedex'd to me the next day.

integrity, honesty, cares about the hobby.

Dan Mckee


P.S. thanks for being glad I won, me too! It was a nightmare of an ordeal and one I do not wish on anyone to have to go through. It was very stressful.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Leon

If I just lost a court case to you I would probably hang up on you too. IF the law said the loser had to pay court and legal fees then they should have done it. If not, then I doubt his company would want to pony up. I understand your frustration. Joe never said he, or his company, was perfect. Actually, as a good friend of mine, I am glad you won Dan. That doesn't make me think Joe or PSA is evil though. It makes me think they lost your Magie card and had to pay for their error.

why did i take court for them to pay for the card, if they are so nice?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by danmckee

It has been many years but if I remember correctly he was anxious to talk to me at the time because of something I posted on here about him in court.

He got the last dig in as he hung up on me.

You have to love our legal system though, I do nothing wrong, I have an item of mine lost by a company, I go through the proper channels to recoup my funds, and I still lose $1800 in legal fees and travel that I was not allowed to add to the lawsuit.

No wonder people get shot after court rulings.

Someone didn't charge you nearly enough!!

[Exhibitman]

Never mind