T206 green Cobb with CYCLE 350 back sells for 3K....some one was FAKED-OUT !

[tedzan]

I was informed (after the fact) that a GRADED (PSA Authentic-Altered) green portrait Cobb with a CYCLE 350 back recently sold for $3000 at an auction.

Most of us T206 dudes know this is an impossible front/back combo. The green Cobb is a 150/350 series subject. The CYCLE 350 back was printed on the
350-Only series subjects of the T206 set.

I'm not surprised that buyers fell for whatever hype described this card.

I am surprised to see that these RE-FRONTED fakes are still in circulation and are being sold.

If any one on this forum has more specifics on this sale, please chime in.


TED Z

[CMIZ5290]

Ted- what i can't figure out is how in the world someone can pull this off without some kind of telling sign? How in the world can they perfectly attach it without any indications?

[atx840]

Auction

Again its PSA here.

Kevin look at the board member who has a T205 front/T206 back he made, the guys who add paper back to corners and is unseen. There is ways of doing everything dishonest and PSA will encase them for you a lot of the times.

[tedzan]

Have you seen professional paper restorers work on an old piece of art ? It's amazing to watch these guys ply their craft.

To remove a T206 front off a common T206 CYCLE 350 (or BROAD LEAF, DRUM, HINDU, etc.) and then replace that front
with a T206 star (Cobb, Matty, etc.) on that blank front is a "piece of cake" for the professional. And, they do it with un-
believable precision, that it fools the graders (PSA, SGC, etc.) virtually every time.

That is the exact process and that's why I refer to these T206 fakes as have been Re-Fronted.


TED Z

[CMIZ5290]

truly amazing....what a shame it is to have to worry about these freaking morons in the hobby we all love so much.....

[danmckee]

I hate to break this to you but this card is only graded "Authentic" by PSA.

And technically both the front and back are Authentic!

The combination just can't exist.

So, is this card graded wrong? Or shouldn't be graded?

I am not sure of the answer but it is tough to argue with Authentic when the entire card is actually Authentic.

Dan

[barrysloate]

Interesting point Dan, because if I remember correctly the well known Just So Burkett was restored using a different card for its border, and it's also in an AUTHENTIC-ALTERED holder. But something is different with these two examples.

It's pretty clear what was done to the Burkett, and anyone owning it should know it's the product of two different cards. But in the case of the green Cobb/Cycle, wouldn't one assume that the card was issued with a Cycle back and then some alteration took place after the fact?

I believe with Burkett PSA made a conscious decision with its designation; in the case of the Cobb they made a bad mistake. My opinion is neither one should reside in a slab.

[alanu]

I've looked at both the SGC and PSA websites and don't see anywhere they give the standards for their "Authentic" grades, it would be helpful if they had a description similar to the standards/descriptions for their other "grades".

[danmckee]

Well stated Barry! I truly appreciate your input. A very interesting thought and I see your points. Dan.

[barrysloate]

Thanks Dan....no way that Cobb should be in a holder.

[CW]

It's interesting to note that the auction description does not mention the impossible f/b combo, but does mention an erased and re-drawn line on the front. Should the auction house be responsible (for lack of a better word) to know this fact and disclose it in the auction? Would such disclosure have an effect on ending price?

Almost dead centered 1909-11 T206 Ty Cobb (Portrait-Green) has been slabbed AUTHENTIC - ALTERED by PSA. Stunning color with awesome image of Cobb. Corners present EX-MT to NM. Super clean both front and back. Centered close to 50/50 all the way around. The black border on the right side of the image has been erased then re-drawn. Tremendous eye appeal for this filler. Cycle 350 ad back.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by CW

It's interesting to note that the auction description does not mention the impossible f/b combo, but does mention an erased and re-drawn line on the front. Should the auction house be responsible (for lack of a better word) to know this fact and disclose it in the auction? Would such disclosure have an effect on ending price?

Id say yes and not sure as I dont collect t206's...but if I were spending 3k on a card I think Id look up possible front/back combos before doing so.

[HRBAKER]

To me there ought to be a certain line (not sure where it is as I don't do 206s) on level of back scarcity where it becomes incumbent upon a seller to at least ascertain whether it is possible. In this instance if the card was consigned, I'm not sure it occurred to check. The mention of the back does almost seem an afterthought at the very tail end of the description, not even in the title.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

In this instance if the card was consigned, I'm not sure it occurred to check.

Jeff an others - If this were a one time instance of a bad front/back combo in this companies auction I think most people would say shame on the consignor (or doctor) and the auction house just missed it.

But in their previous auction they sold another impossible front/back combo. A Christy Mathewson portrait with a Sovereign 460 back. SCP Listing



This impossible front/back combo was brought to the auction houses attention prior to the lot closing and the listing was neither pulled nor revised.

In their followup auction they listed and sold the impossible Cobb front/back combo with an almost identical write up describing the re-drawn black border.

Looking at the cert numbers the Mathewson and Cobb were submitted together. One would think the outing of the first card would have been a big red flag for the second. That this would have caused the auction house to look closely at the other cards in the submission or consignment. Either this didn't happen or the auction house is well aware and are happy with the way they listed and sold these cards.

[atx840]

Here is another bad combo owned by a board member, its currently not graded.

[HRBAKER]

Tim,
So you are saying that someone made them aware that the cards were "Frankencards" (twice) and they opted not to alter course?

[Abravefan11]

Jeff - Prior to the Mathewson selling the auction house was called and told the card was an impossible front/back and an obvious reback or refront. They chose to let the auction run as it was. I don't know that anyone called about the Cobb but given the subject, back and authentic grade, one would think they would take a moment to check if it was a good combination. Especially considering the Cobb was submitted/consigned with the already known bad Mathewson.

[Jaybird]

I spoke to David Kohler about it once and offered to buy the card to get it out of circulation after speaking to Joe Orlando. I was going to have it in hand and look at it along with some hobby friends including the guys at T206Resource.com to figure out exactly what to look for as others of the same type will inevitably end up in the hobby and most likely will not make the mistake of front back combo mismatch.

David entertained my call the first time but then ignored several follow up calls and never returned my requests.

Joe's position is that they will not holder these cards in future but that in this case the card was holdered as Authentic and they reholdered it as ALTERED as a courtesy to SCP this one time. Joe said that it technically is authentic as Dan states. But, he said that he doesn't think we'll see these sorts of cards in PSA's holders in the future. I took that with a grain of salt. I pointed out some things that fellow collectors have singled out and that PSA should look out for which I think they took notice of but only time will tell.

edited to add:

I went back through my emails and the correspondence. David and I emailed 3 times and spoke once. The cards in question had various things on the flip like trimmed, authentic, altered, etc. When they were sent back to Joe for reholdering, Joe agreed to place the catch-all "Altered" on all of the cards so that they all fell under the same umbrella. I mentioned that they were rebacked cards because they were impossible combos, etc. and I think David and Joe were comfortable that the "Altered" tag covered that problem as well. I disagreed and in my phone conversation with Joe, he said that he didn't think I'd see any similar cards in PSA holders in future.

So, my timeline is that I contacted SCP, then Joe and then went back to talk to David to try and obtain the card and follow up and that's when I received no further response. Just wanted to update so that I'm as accurate as possible with what the course of events was. All of this happened in mid-March of 2012. Emails are dated March 13th and phone calls were hot on the heels of those emails.

[HRBAKER]

Do you think that most people think "rebacked" when they see the word altered?
Maybe recolored, bleached, trimmed, etc. Maybe they do. At a minimum IMO the write up should have mentioned that the "alteration" was creating an impossible f/b combo by combining two cards.

This hobby has it all.

Btw, kudos to you for your efforts here.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Interesting point Dan, because if I remember correctly the well known Just So Burkett was restored using a different card for its border, and it's also in an AUTHENTIC-ALTERED holder. But something is different with these two examples.

It's pretty clear what was done to the Burkett, and anyone owning it should know it's the product of two different cards. But in the case of the green Cobb/Cycle, wouldn't one assume that the card was issued with a Cycle back and then some alteration took place after the fact?

I believe with Burkett PSA made a conscious decision with its designation; in the case of the Cobb they made a bad mistake. My opinion is neither one should reside in a slab.

Barry Sloate said it best here back in Post #8......

" My opinion is neither one should reside in a slab. "


These re-fronted creations are no longer an original T206 (as printed 100+ years ago). Assigning them the status of "Altered" does not cut it (excuse the pun).
What do we have here, TPG people now trying to be "lawyers", so they can cover their a$$'s ?

Crack these phony cards out of their plastic and burn them. Better yet, save yourself the trouble of cracking them open.....just take an axe to the plastic and
shatter it into 100 fragments.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by tedzan

These re-fronted creations are no longer an original T206 (as printed 100+ years ago). Assigning them the status of "Altered" does not cut it (excuse the pun).

I agree. That goes beyond ALTERED. However, we learned from the PSA apologists in the "Moral of story..." thread, PSA's "opinion is clearly relevant" and everyones elses is irrelevant in identifying ALTERED cards.

Funny how that thread fell to the bottom of the page so quickly.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Btw, kudos to you for your efforts here.

+1.

Thank you for the real, repeated efforts at contacting SCP and PSA, and thanks to the person who contacted SCP before the end of the auction in an effort to get the bogus card pulled.

Nice to see some proactive work done to fix/prevent problems rather than the easier finger pointing after a bad card has been sold.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Aloha Leon.....may be biting the hand that feeds some but I would like to suggest a TPG Bash section so we all can show and tell the abominations that are the results of TPG ...and we don't have to worry about our posts getting burried on the bottom or next page. dave.

[barrysloate]

The problem with slabbing this card as AUTHENTIC is bidders may factor in a significant premium for the Cycle back, and it isn't warranted.

[john.clowes]

Wouldn't SGC label the card as 'skinned' or 'rebacked'? Seems like that would be a more accurate description.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The problem with slabbing this card as AUTHENTIC is bidders may factor in a significant premium for the Cycle back, and it isn't warranted.

So obviously true. How crazy that this card was labeled Authentic? Misleading. Disgraceful. If I bought this card, I'd sue PSA tomorrow.

[CW]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The problem with slabbing this card as AUTHENTIC is bidders may factor in a significant premium for the Cycle back, and it isn't warranted.

I would agree. Even though the card looked really nice, in an authentic holder that card would likely sell for under $1K if it had a standard Sweet Cap or Piedmont back.