Lesson learned; Max bid on eBay

[DanP]

I just learned a valuable lesson about using maximum bids on eBay. I was bidding from my phone and too lazy to go to my PC and use Bidnapper. I entered a maximum bid directly on Ebay. I never usually do this, not even with auction houses.

Here's what happened:

Yesterday someone outbid me at $2,550. Fine, I was OK with losing the auction at this price.

This morning that bid was retracted (conveniently just before the bid retraction limit of 12 hours of the end time).

So now I'm the high bidder at $1,950.

So now the seller knows what my maximum bid was! So guess what's going to happen just before the auction end time? Someone is going to bid $2,450 to bring me to my maximum bid.

I understand the "If you win the auction at what you bid, don't complain" thinking. However, this type of crap really irritates me. I tried to retract my bid but by the time I noticed what was going on it was within the 12 hour limit.

Most likely this will be a $500 lesson learned (kind of). I just thought I'd pass this information along so others don't make the same mistake. Whether what I'm predicting happens or not, next time I'm using Bidnapper or just putting my max bid in within the last few minutes of the auction.

[tiger8mush]

sorry to hear that happen Dan

If that happens you could always contact the seller and let them know you were obviously shilled and that you'd like to cancel the transaction, unless you're cool with paying that max bid price of course.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

If that happens you could always contact the seller and let them know you were obviously shilled and that you'd like to cancel the transaction, unless you're cool with paying that max bid price of course.

I would wait and see how the auction plays out, but I agree with this advice if you get shilled up.

[DanP]

Thanks for the kind comments and advice. After thinking this over, if I end up winning the auction at my maximum bid I'll be happy. That's all that matters to me.

Either way, I wanted to pass the information along to the board.

[DanP]

I just checked, it's almost up to my max bid already. Check out the bidding! It looks like they're not waiting until the last minute.

[iwantitiwinit]

Who's the seller.

[DanP]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Who's the seller.

carterscards2006

They seem to be a re-seller. They probably don't have anything to do with the shilling.

[111gecko]

I had email conversations with this seller first thing this morning. Here is what happened:

A new buyer (Ebay ID: kesjimjam 0 Feedback) opened an account and bid up several of the sets he is selling. Seller said he called EBay immediately and they told him to contact buyer and inquire about payment etc. Seller gave him 3 hours and he did not respond. He then deleted every one of the buyer's bids and blocked him.

[7nohitter]

Wow, some beautiful cards

[Jantz]

I just had a similar situation happen to me, but a different seller.

Its amusing how some Ebay buyers run up a price, then back out.

Within an hour the seller sent me a Second Chance Offer, which I refused and informed him to relist the item.

One week later and no relisting. Imagine that

I'd ask the seller to cancel my bid as I'd have no interest in bidding in an obviously shilled auction. Just another thought.

[Jantz]

Update to my first post (#11)

The seller now messaged me thru Ebay and informed me that he wants to make a deal outside of Ebay.

This just keeps getting better.

BTW, Hope it works out for you Dan.

J@ntz

[Brian Van Horn]

Dan,

Just a heads up. Here is a previous Net54 post on the seller:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...t=carterscards

[1952boyntoncollector]

yeah I have had dealings with the seller...hes one of those 'no hurry to sell' guys or 'I have higher offer' when deal with him direct and then days later its on ebay no reserve...

[Exhibitman]

Enter Scumbag.

Song they should track behind all of their listings.

Sorry that happened but not surprised. eBay is shill heaven now and not using a sniper program is as good as asking for it, especially with the consignment sellers.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

I'd ask the seller to cancel my bid as I'd have no interest in bidding in an obviously shilled auction. Just another thought.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Enter Scumbag.

Song they should track behind all of their listings.

Sorry that happened but not surprised. eBay is shill heaven now and not using a sniper program is as good as asking for it, especially with the consignment sellers.

Guys, this auction was not shilled. I'm pretty sure this is the item in question...

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

If you look at the bidding history, the guy that Dan was bidding against originally bid before Dan bid. Besides, a shiller could have ran it up even more.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Guys, this auction was not shilled. I'm pretty sure this is the item in question...

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

If you look at the bidding history, the guy that Dan was bidding against originally bid before Dan bid. Besides, a shiller could have ran it up even more.

It seems his concern was a bit pre-mature. I assume Dan is pleased, as he indicated his max bid was $2500 and that he was willing to pay that amount.

[Fred]

Here's a scenario - You make a bid in an auction (lets say for about $2K) and you were outbid. Knowing you didn't have to commit to paying for that item (because you were outbid on it) you bid on another item for about the same price. Then a bid retraction occurs shortly before the auction ended where you were outbid and you are again the high bidder in that auction and lets say you win that auction. Shortly after that you also win the other auction for $2K. Does that mean you have to commit to paying for both auctions?

[111gecko]

Guys, this auction was not shilled. I'm pretty sure this is the item in question...

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

If you look at the bidding history, the guy that Dan was bidding against originally bid before Dan bid. Besides, a shiller could have ran it up even more.
__________________

+ 1,000,000....

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

It seems his concern was a bit pre-mature. I assume Dan is pleased, as he indicated his max bid was $2500 and that he was willing to pay that amount.

I don't think his concern was premature. Please don't misconstrue the following because I'm not making any accusations here. What happens if the "0" bidder was made up by someone that wanted to reveal the high bid and what happens if the seller "knew" the under bidder? Again, I'm not saying that's the case here. I'm just saying "what if?" I'd be a bit unhappy with soemone retracting a bid like that on an auction I was bidding on.

It may not have been the case here but....

[D. Bergin]

Based on another post above and looking at the bids, the bid was cancelled by the seller because of concerns about the veracity of the bidder. It wasn't retracted.

Originally Posted by Fred

I don't think his concern was premature. Please don't misconstrue the following because I'm not making any accusations here. What happens if the "0" bidder was made up by someone that wanted to reveal the high bid and what happens if the seller "knew" the under bidder? Again, I'm not saying that's the case here. I'm just saying "what if?" I'd be a bit unhappy with soemone retracting a bid like that on an auction I was bidding on.

It may not have been the case here but....

Apparently the bid was canceled by the seller and not retracted. It makes no difference though because the card never got shilled up to Dan's max which was his concern but didn't occur, which is why I said the concern may have been a bit pre-mature. There was an assumption on Dan's part, and mine when I gave my advice, that the auction was destined to be shilled up to his max bid amount. We were mistaken and all is well from Dan's perspective...I assume anyways, which I should probably stop doing as this scenario illustrates.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Guys, this auction was not shilled. I'm pretty sure this is the item in question...

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

If you look at the bidding history, the guy that Dan was bidding against originally bid before Dan bid. Besides, a shiller could have ran it up even more.

Just because the person bid before Dan bid, I don't see how that proves that this was not shilling. Many instances of shilling happen when a seller/consignor have a "hidden reserve" that they are trying to shill the price up to. So the person doesn't have to shill up to the max bid, just up to their "reserve." In addition, the bidder may have seen this thread on this board, and didn't want to seem too obvious.

That the bidder who had his bid retracted wasn't the underbidder doesn't matter either. Obviously in this case, that bidder was a 0 feedback bidder so it could have just been a new account created to see what the max bid was. That new account "may" have been associated with the underbidder (or not).

Obviously, this doesn't prove shilling either. The 0 feedback bidder could have been a completely different person not associated with the underbidder. I've seen cases where someone puts in a large bid like this to try to determine the max bid for the highest bidder, probably in order to determine if they want to put a snipe in if the max bid is still lower than what they are looking at. If if there is a regular reserve on the card, they put in a high bid to try to determine what reserve the seller set on the card. I guess the point is that this could still be anything, and I think the best strategy in general is to still snipe, and not put max bids in, especially ebay auctions.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by glchen

Just because the person bid before Dan bid, I don't see how that proves that this was not shilling. Many instances of shilling happen when a seller/consignor have a "hidden reserve" that they are trying to shill the price up to. So the person doesn't have to shill up to the max bid, just up to their "reserve." In addition, the bidder may have seen this thread on this board, and didn't want to seem too obvious.

That the bidder who had his bid retracted wasn't the underbidder doesn't matter either. Obviously in this case, that bidder was a 0 feedback bidder so it could have just been a new account created to see what the max bid was. That new account "may" have been associated with the underbidder (or not).

Obviously, this doesn't prove shilling either. The 0 feedback bidder could have been a completely different person not associated with the underbidder. I've seen cases where someone puts in a large bid like this to try to determine the max bid for the highest bidder, probably in order to determine if they want to put a snipe in if the max bid is still lower than what they are looking at. If if there is a regular reserve on the card, they put in a high bid to try to determine what reserve the seller set on the card. I guess the point is that this could still be anything, and I think the best strategy in general is to still snipe, and not put max bids in, especially ebay auctions.

Come on, Gary. Are you for real?

If someone wanted to shill Dan up, they obviously could have because his proxy bid was exposed with the bid cancellation.

Did you even look at the bidding history? Did you notice that the user that had his bid cancelled is no longer a registered user? Did you also notice that he bid on several other items from 6 other sellers too?

Read before you post.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Come on, Gary. Are you for real?

If someone wanted to shill Dan up, they obviously could have because his proxy bid was exposed with the bid cancellation.

Did you even look at the bidding history? Did you notice that the user that had his bid cancelled is no longer a registered user? Did you also notice that he bid on several other items from 6 other sellers too?

Read before you post.

David, I don't know if you're just being naïve, but I did look at the bidding history. I don't see how that proves anything. People who shill often bid in other auctions to try to mask their shilling activities. The fact that he's no longer a registered bidder doesn't mean anything. Please read my post completely also. As I stated, it may not be shilling, but I don't think that the bidding history proves this.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Yes, Gary, I'm being naive.

Clearly I don't get it.

[glchen]

Don't worry, David. At least you have no peer in being able to detect altered cards.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I have two questions for you, Gary.

1) If the auction was shilled (which you clearly infer), why didn't the shiller run Dan's bid up to the max? After all, nothing was stopping him.

2) The only bidder that could have shilled that auction would have been n***i (593). So, here is another auction with the same NARU'd user. Who is the shiller on this one since obviously n***i (593) didn't bid in this one?

I would love to hear some more of your wisdom.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

[glchen]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I have two questions for you, Gary.

1) If the auction was shilled (which you clearly infer), why didn't the shiller run Dan's bid up to the max? After all, nothing was stopping him.

2) The only bidder that could have shilled that auction would have been n***i (593). So, here is another auction with the same NARU'd user. Who is the shiller on this one since obviously n***i (593) didn't bid in this one?

I would love to hear some more of your wisdom.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

David, clearly we are working off of different definitions of shill bidding. For you, it looks like shilling only means when artificial bids are created that run the winning bid up to their max bid. For me, shilling is any artificial bids created by the seller/consignor (or someone related) with the intention of increasing the final price of the item.

As I said in my initial post in this thread (#24), the consignor may have had a hidden reserve that he wanted to be met. Therefore, he shilled to drive the price up to his reserve price. He may have stopped at that point because he thought that price was sufficient for him, or he may have stopped because he had seen this thread so didn't want to bring additional attention to himself.

For the second auction that you are showing, the consignor may have decided that no additional shilling was necessary because the price at that point already surpassed his hidden reserve.

Again, my point here is that unless you know who the consignor and bidders are, you really do not know if you are being shilled or not. Once ebay started masking bidder id's, it made it significantly more difficult to determine if there is shilling going on. I remember a while back, Jeff believed that he was shilled in a PWCC auction for a Cobb card. However, in that instance, I was the consignor to PWCC for that item. I asked PWCC who the underbidder in that auction was, and I sent that ebay id over to Jeff to try to prove to him that no shilling occurred in that auction. So unless the consignor for these items speaks up, and then provides the identities for the bidders in question, we really won't know what really happened in these auctions.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by glchen

As I said in my initial post in this thread (#24), the consignor may have had a hidden reserve that he wanted to be met.

As you ALSO said in your initial post, "that bidder was a 0 feedback bidder so it could have just been a new account created to see what the max bid was."

Come one, Gary, if your going to make ridiculous comments, back them up. You clearly inferred that n***i (593) created the 0 feedback bidder to see what the max bid was. So, where is n***i (593) in the second auction? Where is the shill in this auction?

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...565&rmvSB=true

In other words, what was the 0 feedback user's motivation for bidding on it?

[glchen]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

As you ALSO said in your initial post, "that bidder was a 0 feedback bidder so it could have just been a new account created to see what the max bid was."

Come one, Gary, if your going to make ridiculous comments, back them up. You clearly inferred that n***i (593) created the 0 feedback bidder to see what the max bid was. So, where is n***i (593) in the second auction? Where is the shill in this auction?

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...565&rmvSB=true

In other words, what was the 0 feedback user's motivation for bidding on it?

David, why does every action need to be linked with the same id's in both? Couldn't n***i (593) not bid in that auction or instead use a different account just to throw you off?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by glchen

David, why does every action need to be linked with the same id's in both? Couldn't n***i (593) not bid in that auction or instead use a different account just to throw you off?

Yes, clearly some elaborate scheme by the seller to use multiple accounts and even create new ones, all in an effort to shill his auctions.

Your ignorance is amazing!

[glchen]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Yes, clearly some elaborate scheme by the seller to use multiple accounts and even create new ones, all in an effort to shill his auctions.

Your ignorance is amazing!

David, I'm just going to have to move on and agree to disagree with you in this case. What I find amazing is your inclination to not read my entire posts and just try to pick and choose my statements that seem to fit your thesis. I have stated that I do not know unequivocally what occurred in these auctions. You seem to know exactly what went down. More power to you.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by glchen

You seem to know exactly what went down. More power to you.

Actually, I do know exactly what went down because I had someone PM me with more details after I posted what I did in Post #17.

I won't reveal that user's name or what he said since it was said in private, but I have a little more information than you do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The old, I know more than you but I can't tell you what even though I wish I could thing.

[bobbyw8469]

I once stayed at a Holiday Inn.

[Exhibitman]

Anyone like applesauce?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't understand placing a bid any time before 10 seconds to go. Use a snipe service.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't understand placing a bid any time before 10 seconds to go. Use a snipe service.

+1

[gregr2]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't understand placing a bid any time before 10 seconds to go. Use a snipe service.

+2

[CW]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Anyone like applesauce?

yes, but only with pork chops.

[CW]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't understand placing a bid any time before 10 seconds to go. Use a snipe service.

Originally Posted by T206Collector

+1

Originally Posted by gregr2

+2

Pfff... maybe if it was a service that you could sign up for free, THEN...

[vintagetoppsguy]

I don’t understand how a snipe prevents shilling.

Example: You’re watching an item that has a current high bid of $1650 (it’s a legitimate bid). The seller is concerned that the item will go for less than the $2K he has into it, so he has his friend place a shill bid of $2000. The current high bid is now $1675. You really want the item and set your snipe to $2200. There are no other bidders. As the auction is about to end, your snipe is placed and you end up winning the item for $2025, still $175 less than your snipe amount.

Tell me, how did sniping protect you from shilling? Weren’t you still shilled up by $350, or am I missing something?

[chaddurbin]

looks like shilling by 593* to me...and if you don't use a sniping service to prevent shilling then i'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.

[gregr2]

Originally Posted by CW

Pfff... maybe if it was a service that you could sign up for free, THEN...

Most, if not all of the sniping services are free. Check out gavelsnipe.com

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

...and if you don't use a sniping service to prevent shilling then i'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.

That in 2015 someone still has to say this really just makes clear how dumb the average collector really is.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I don’t understand how a snipe prevents shilling.

Example: You’re watching an item that has a current high bid of $1650 (it’s a legitimate bid). The seller is concerned that the item will go for less than the $2K he has into it, so he has his friend place a shill bid of $2000. The current high bid is now $1675. You really want the item and set your snipe to $2200. There are no other bidders. As the auction is about to end, your snipe is placed and you end up winning the item for $2025, still $175 less than your snipe amount.

Tell me, how did sniping protect you from shilling? Weren’t you still shilled up by $350, or am I missing something?

And yes, when consignors use hidden (illegal) reserves there's a limit to what a sniping service can do; however, it still provides some protection.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And yes, when consignors use hidden (illegal) reserves there's a limit to what a sniping service can do; however, it still provides some protection.

right if a seller knows what the current bid is he can have someone beat it and retract and then have another bidder bid right below the highest authority of the real bidder.....in the last 10 seconds this cant be done....seller will have to risk 'winning' the item with secret reserve if hes the high bidder end of auction..he not guaranteed to not be the highest bidder if cant do the retraction game...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And yes, when consignors use hidden (illegal) reserves there's a limit to what a sniping service can do; however, it still provides some protection.

Jeff, no it doesn't. It works out the same. Let me give you the same example (using the same bid amounts), but this time you bid during the auction rather than snipe.

Example: You’re watching an item that has a current high bid of $1650 (it’s a legitimate bid). You really want the item and place a proxy bid (instead of a snipe) of $2200. You're then current high bidder at $1675. The seller is concerned that the item will go for less than the $2K he has into it, so he has his friend place a shill bid of $2000. The current high bid is now $2025, but you're still the current high bidder. There are no other bidders and you end up winning the auction for that amount.

In both examples, you're still artificially bid up by the same amount ($350). So, it made no difference whether you would have sniped our not.

I'm not being facetious, but I really don't get it unless somehow it makes you feel better about the situation to be artificially run up at the end of the auction (by placing a snipe) rather than to be artificially run up during the auction (by placing a proxy bid). To me, they're one in the same.