Bvg thoughts???

[661fish]

I am over the inconsistencies with PSA. I know all about SGC. I recently have aquired a few 50's and 60's cards that are beautiful and are what they were graded. Any thoughts about BVG?

[bnorth]

If they are trimmed or sheet cut BVG is your answer. If not I would stick with PSA if selling. Beckett is mainly for new shiny cards. If they are for your personal collection go with whoever you like best.

EDIT: If you like SGC(I do) they are closed for an undetermined time now because of the hurricane. I got an email a little while ago.

[KMayUSA6060]

Are you asking about reputation for that era, slab value, or something else?

[CMIZ5290]

Your post is a bit confusing. Are you saying your cards are raw, or are they presently graded by Beckett?

[ngnichols]

Originally Posted by 661fish

I am over the inconsistencies with PSA. I know all about SGC. I recently have aquired a few 50's and 60's cards that are beautiful and are what they were graded. Any thoughts about BVG?

Andy Broome is their vintage guy and he worked at PSA as a grader at one time. I know from the vintage I've submitted to them the grades are accurate and/or maybe even slightly conservative.

I had a 1948 Leaf - Jackie Robinson that was a BVG 4.5 and every single person who saw the card said it looked at least a full point better than that.

Obviously with the inherent bias in the industry, you're not going to get maximum possible value for the card, but there is definitely inconsistency that exists with PSA and how they view certain aspects of cards - namely centering.

[661fish]

I don't care about resale. PSA had gone downhill imo.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 661fish

I don't care about resale. PSA had gone downhill imo.

Then put them in whatever slab you like the best. To me SGC looks the best and BVG are built the strongest.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Then put them in whatever slab you like the best. To me SGC looks the best and BVG are built the strongest.

+1.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by 661fish

I don't care about resale. PSA had gone downhill imo.

You just lost me there...

[Dewey]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

You just lost me there...

Which part? I feel the same about the first part. Don't know enough about the second part.

[661fish]

In your guys opinion, does Beckett do a good job with vintage? That's what I was trying to get at?

[661fish]

Basically dies Beckett do a good job with vintage?

[herbc]

I've never had a problem with BVG. Have used all of them with similar results. If you're fed up with PSA, why not try something different.

[Leon]

I think BVG does a great job with vintage.

.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think BVG does a great job with vintage.

.

Agreed, and their holders and service are outstanding...

[swarmee]

Depends on what you're fed up with PSA about. Just inconsistency in grading? Why do you want the cards slabbed instead of just raw? Are you willing to pay $13 a card and wait for more months than PSA to get them into an inferior (market price) grader's slab?
Why not have BCCG grade them for a few bucks a card to "confirm" they're not trimmed? Why not just leave them raw?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Depends on what you're fed up with PSA about. Just inconsistency in grading? Why do you want the cards slabbed instead of just raw? Are you willing to pay $13 a card and wait for more months than PSA to get them into an inferior (market price) grader's slab?
Why not have BCCG grade them for a few bucks a card to "confirm" they're not trimmed? Why not just leave them raw?

As much as I do like the BVG grading I don't care for the BCCG product as it is too confusing. They actually do a decent job too, for what they do. But to have another grading scale is and always will be a problem, imo. That said I think they do very well with it at the mass merchants, so as a company, it is probably a good move. I don't think they market their vintage grading very well and that is one reason their cards don't bring the money. They have a stigma from an old policy concerning some sheet cut cards. Not sure about that situation today. All in my most humble opinion, others will differ. (To be transparent they have advertised here before.)

[swarmee]

The main reason I mentioned BCCG is that they're much cheaper than BVG. The slabs are flimsy like old PSA slabs, but if the guy just wants them graded with Mint, Near Mint, Excellent, Very Good, Good, and Poor or better grades, he can save a bunch of money using BCCG. Especially if he doesn't care about resale value.
In his boat, I'd probably wait for SGC to do another $5 special and send them all there at that time. Uniformity and respectable.

[bbcard1]

I remember seeing a recent SGC 30 that sold off our board...great seller, fairly priced card, all that...but my thought was if I could get the grader that gave that card a 30, I'd send my whole collection in today.

[Snapolit1]

If you have a valuable card and it is not PSA or SGC graded I will probably suspect you sent it to another company for a reason. Or went to PSA and didn't like what you heard. I realize that may be completely irrational and a bias but I suspect I am not the only one who feels that way.

Frankly I like how SGC looks. Like a lot of other people.

[samosa4u]

Beckett does do a good job grading vintage cards, but the problem is that they have a small market share. They are popular when it comes to modern cards though. Their holder is pretty secure and you need a sledgehammer to break it.

[jbbama]

I have picked up some nice vintage BVG cards over the years. Buying the card and not the holder, really applies. The perception BVG is inferior to PSA and SGC works well for me.

[herbc]

Originally Posted by jbbama

I have picked up some nice vintage BVG cards over the years. Buying the card and not the holder, really applies. The perception BVG is inferior to PSA and SGC works well for me.

Yep! You got that right. I've watched this insanity spread over the past few years. Also the repeated resubmissions puzzle me. Is it really that complicated?

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by 661fish

I don't care about resale. PSA had gone downhill imo.

The market disagrees with you.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Beckett does do a good job grading vintage cards, but the problem is that they have a small market share. They are popular when it comes to modern cards though. Their holder is pretty secure and you need a sledgehammer to break it.

You think they are small, you should look at GAI.....talk about the collapse of a good thing.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you have a valuable card and it is not PSA or SGC graded I will probably suspect you sent it to another company for a reason. Or went to PSA and didn't like what you heard. I realize that may be completely irrational and a bias but I suspect I am not the only one who feels that way.

Frankly I like how SGC looks. Like a lot of other people.

This spot on.

I agree with Robert's comments too. The market, for the most part, loves PSA and will bring the money the others don't.

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Beckett does do a good job grading vintage cards, but the problem is that they have a small market share. They are popular when it comes to modern cards though. Their holder is pretty secure and you need a sledgehammer to break it.

...yeah but sometimes you have to hold their hand and then re-submit providing more information which one would think they would already have somewhere in their specs library.....if you famously provide large holders and have the word "vintage" in your name , people expect you to identify large vintage sportscards...this incident was years ago , so I presume by now they are more proficient with Dizzy Dean Metropolitan Studios Premiums that were drawn on by some kid back in 1931 ;( really good job too )

......

..

...

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by ngnichols

Andy Broome is their vintage guy and he worked at PSA as a grader at one time. I know from the vintage I've submitted to them the grades are accurate and/or maybe even slightly conservative.

I had a 1948 Leaf - Jackie Robinson that was a BVG 4.5 and every single person who saw the card said it looked at least a full point better than that.

Obviously with the inherent bias in the industry, you're not going to get maximum possible value for the card, but there is definitely inconsistency that exists with PSA and how they view certain aspects of cards - namely centering.

As far as I know, Andy never worked for PSA. I think he was working for a different TPG when he came to Beckett.

[Exhibitman]

Mixed bag.

Their holder is insane--Fort Knox compared to the others.

The card condom on every card can make it difficult to view and scan as compared to other services.

Grading is inconsistently consistent. They are less adverse to minor damage than PSA. A card with a corner ding that would get a 4 from PSA will get a 6-6.5 from BVG. The reality of the grade IMO is somewhere in between.

The subgrades for higher grade items are interesting in that they give you some idea of what the graders focused on.



The branding is very confusing. BVG, BCCG, and now BVA too.

The new black label for their pristine grade is nice idea



I am waiting for the one that goes to 11.

[drcy]

SCD Authentic had a grade of 11.

[swarmee]

PSA returns their fair share of "we don't grade this" or "we don't know what it is" or "it has to be a recognized variation somewhere else". BVG is good for what it is. But with the high bulk price and awful turnaround times on bulk orders, even the young kids are getting angry at the company and are shifting money towards PSA on modern cards.

[SMPEP]

Originally Posted by drcy

SCD Authentic had a grade of 11.

I thought that was only available in Belgium.

[granite75]

For vintage, BVG is the boxed wine of grading.

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[steve B]

Originally Posted by swarmee

PSA returns their fair share of "we don't grade this" or "we don't know what it is" or "it has to be a recognized variation somewhere else". BVG is good for what it is. But with the high bulk price and awful turnaround times on bulk orders, even the young kids are getting angry at the company and are shifting money towards PSA on modern cards.

I guess to be the industry "leader" you've got to do a lot of following.

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by granite75

For vintage, BVG is the boxed wine of grading.

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This is funny! Do you mean boxed wine now or boxed wine Franzia? The newer brand Black Box actually makes a pretty good cabernet table wine that is pretty economical and while it can't compete with the more high dollar wines, it is much kinder on the wallet. But I do get your point

As far as the holders go, by a long long shot the strongest. Hard to crack those!

[Touch'EmAll]

Will admit I ruined a 1987 Fleer Larry Bird trying to get it out of a BVG holder. Will never try again. Thank godness wasn't a spendy card. A few years ago bought a BVG '51 Mays - came back from both PSA and SGC as trimmed.

[frankbmd]

Slabonomics

I have collected all four (PSA, SGC, BVG, GAI) types of slabs for over 10 years in prewar cards.

I have sold all four types of slabs as well. On average I have held cards for five years.

GAI - I only had 20 of these. Before selling any of them, I cracked and submitted them to SGC. They all graded, albeit a bit lower. I have sold half of them, but when they are all sold, I will be in the black easily, because I paid less for the GAIs to begin with.

BVG, SGC & PSA - have all netted me the same percentage ROI. BVGs are a bit cheaper than SGCs on the buy side, and therefore sell for a bit less on the sell side. Similarly SGCs are a bit cheaper than PSAs on the buy side, and therefore sell for a bit less on the sell side.

At least for me, slab diversity has had "no" economic consequences. I am a collector and not a dealer. I try not to overpay or oversell. I am not truly a buy the card not the holder type of guy though, because the holder and the grade do affect what I am willing to pay, and consequently what I am willing to sell for.

The disparity in slab pricing does increase "exponentially" in higher grade and lower pop cards. The effect of the PSA Registry on pricing of high end cards is very real, but in mid and lower graded cards, the difference is manageable for me.

So I buy cards that I like or want at reasonable prices, but never exclude a card from my consideration based on the type of slab. My OCD is focused not on a particular "look" or on a "Registry" position, but rather on a sustainable, yet changing, collection that will hopefully never result in red ink long term. Nor do I expect to become wealthy because of my cardboard.

Sorry, no punch line.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Sorry, no punch line.

Just when I think you're going to get through the whole post without a punchline, I get the non-punchline punchline. Dang!

[irv]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Will admit I ruined a 1987 Fleer Larry Bird trying to get it out of a BVG holder. Will never try again. Thank godness wasn't a spendy card. A few years ago bought a BVG '51 Mays - came back from both PSA and SGC as trimmed.

I followed this vid, from a member on here, and they were incredibly easy to crack open.

I only cracked them as I didn't like the looks of them in those plastic baggies.
I put them in sleeves and vintage top loaders and I am much happier now.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=243539

[tschock]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I have collected all four (PSA, SGC, BVG, GAI) types of slabs for over 10 years in prewar cards.

I have sold all four types of slabs as well.

Finally... someone who actually 'celebrates diversity'.

[glynparson]

Nice secure holder, great at catching counterfeits, terrible at finding alterations, terrible resale value, tough storage of holders. Not sure where the idea of PSA going down hill is coming from I think they have actually improved quiet a bit over the past several years. They are far more consistent than they used to be, though much tighter. BVG has graded far to many trimmed and or sheet cut cards (percentage wise) for me to ever have any faith in their grading abilities. In fact I think they suck as graders but they are good authenticators and there holders are secure as can be.

[toledo_mudhen]

Dont really care for the baggies in the slabs and crossovers from BVG to either of the other 2 has been absolutely terrible - for me anyway.

I have to really really like the card and the price for me to spend on BVG slabbed cards.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Nice secure holder, great at catching counterfeits, terrible at finding alterations, terrible resale value, tough storage of holders. Not sure where the idea of PSA going down hill is coming from I think they have actually improved quiet a bit over the past several years. They are far more consistent than they used to be, though much tighter. BVG has graded far to many trimmed and or sheet cut cards (percentage wise) for me to ever have any faith in their grading abilities. In fact I think they suck as graders but they are good authenticators and there holders are secure as can be.

Agree on the holder., very secure. As I said, I think BVG has some of the best graders in the business. The other graders in the business, whom I have spoken with, think so too. That said, you really don't know what you are talking about with respect to BVG current grading. If you did you wouldn't think the way you do.

ps...I will add that cards in BVG holders don't bring the money of others but that is due to marketing and their old practices which were company mandated (grading sheet cut cards). Sort of like the "hand cut" caveat on all strip cards from SGC, even ones clearly not hand cut. BVG marketing and management leaves a bit to be desired too.

[glynparson]

No offense but I trust my eyes more than yours and I know what i see and I also know what people tell me about getting stuff through. Hell I know several guys that tell people if PSA and SGC reject it for trimmed send to BGS they will usually slab it. Many sheet cut cards have ended up in their holders this is common knowledge in the hobby. I understand thy are nice guys and may be your friends but I think they suck at detecting alterations and I still like you but frankly don't care if you think I know what i am talking about or not because I know what goes on. The alterations I am referring to them missing are trimming and filing they seem to be good at the painting and as i have said seem to be excellent at detecting counterfeits. I am sorry but i truly feel they are VERY poor at determining factory cuts.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by glynparson

No offense but I trust my eyes more than yours and I know what i see and I also know what people tell me about getting stuff through. Hell I know several guys that tell people if PSA and SGC reject it for trimmed send to BGS they will usually slab it. Many sheet cut cards have ended up in their holders this is common knowledge in the hobby. I understand thy are nice guys and may be your friends but I think they suck at detecting alterations and I still like you but frankly don't care if you think I know what i am talking about or not because I know what goes on.

I don't know anyone at BGS. Yes, the head grader at BVG is a friend of mine. When I sold my collection a few years ago it all went to SGC to be graded....But I do submit some things to Beckett too....
It (BGS) is different graders (same company) than BVG.....very poor marketing on their part especially with the whole BCCG numbering thing too. I might not disagree with you on their other subsidiaries but we can just agree to disagree on BVG otherwise. And I agree BVG doesn't bring the money either but it's not the grader's fault on that.

[botn]

Originally Posted by glynparson

No offense but I trust my eyes more than yours and I know what i see and I also know what people tell me about getting stuff through. Hell I know several guys that tell people if PSA and SGC reject it for trimmed send to BGS they will usually slab it. Many sheet cut cards have ended up in their holders this is common knowledge in the hobby. I understand thy are nice guys and may be your friends but I think they suck at detecting alterations and I still like you but frankly don't care if you think I know what i am talking about or not because I know what goes on. The alterations I am referring to them missing are trimming and filing they seem to be good at the painting and as i have said seem to be excellent at detecting counterfeits. I am sorry but i truly feel they are VERY poor at determining factory cuts.

I agree completely Glyn and know your experience and qualifications for detecting altered cards. I know of a couple of dealers who go the Beckett route after SGC and PSA boot their cards. Sadly I have heard far too many horror stories from collectors, as well as my own experiences, of recently graded Beckett cards which do not cross at any grade and when the same cards have been broken out, they have not regraded and it is usually for trimming.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Slabonomics
I have collected all four (PSA, SGC, BVG, GAI) types of slabs for over 10 years in prewar cards.
...
I am a collector and not a dealer. I try not to overpay or oversell. I am not truly a buy the card not the holder type of guy though, because the holder and the grade do affect what I am willing to pay, and consequently what I am willing to sell for.
...
My OCD is focused not on a particular "look" or on a "Registry" position, but rather on a sustainable, yet changing, collection that will hopefully never result in red ink long term. Nor do I expect to become wealthy because of my cardboard.

Frank, I don't know you, but this is so well put, it makes me want to buy you a beer!! All of these quoted points resonate with me extremely well. Good job sir!!

[Jcfowler6]

I like cards and not the plastic they are in.


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