Cards that CAN and CANNOT be soaked?!

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Leon,

I respectfully disagree with your casual stance regarding taking a card for a soak. In my humble opinion, this practice is as unethical as trimming. Just my two cents.

Best,

Eric

Good luck trying to determine which cards you have that have been soaked. The reason that it is acceptable is that it alters nothing from the card itself (obviously trimming does this and is thusly not accepted). Many really high grade cards that exist in this hobby likely are the result of a good soaking, the cards being in an album for so long is what preserved the corners from being damaged from years or normal wear. It Is fine to take the hard-line stance but at the end of the day it is 100% imperceptible if done correctly and nothing on the card is destroyed or altered, not sure I get why this would be in any way the same as trimming a card.


FYI, never try to soak Clement Brothers Bread cards as the ink on front is water soluble. Colgan's Chips also aren't good "soakers" as the back ink tends to rub off.

[h2oya311]

Ryan - thanks for the note.

yes, the glue is only on the top upper edge. I could almost tear one of the stickers off, but they are so fragile I was worried I might tear through the sticker. I thought maybe a soak would do the trick, although I've never tried it. I'll give it a try on one of the other sheets. Trust me, I'll be practicing a lot (if there looks to be even a remote chance of success) before attempting to free Mr. Rice from his sheet.

To address other concerns on here, I used to be of the same mind regarding soaking, especially when used to enhance the appearance of a card (dirt removal)...in this case, I'm trying to remove a card from an album. I think they are two different animals. That said, where do you draw the line?

I was surprised to see so many members and long-time collectors using the "soak" method. But I still think it is far different from altering a card (like trimming or coloring the chipped paint on a t205).

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Gentlemen (and the few ladies on this board),

Out of curiosity, why is soaking a card acceptable while other alterations are, according to some members of Net54, verboten?

I considered soaking a card...once. After realizing what it would likely do to a T206 with a back stamp and (let's call it) a sticker, I quickly backed off.

Upon further reflection, I am curious as to why this particular form of, "card doctoring" is OK with some who would cry, "foul" under other circumstances. In the grand scheme of things, it seems about the same as taking an eraser to a pencil mark or ironing out the crease in a silk.

Just curious...although I imagine a Net54 beat-down is coming my way for suggesting that soaking a card is unethical.

Best regards,

Eric

I can only speak for myself. I have no problem with soaking as long as it is to remove dirt/stains/musty smell and not ink.

I recently soaked a few 60's Batman, spook stories, and monster laffs that really smelled bad. The soaking removed some dirt and lessened the wrinkles a little. The big benefit for me was it got rid of the horrible musty smell.

[Cardboard Junkie]

"The reason that it is acceptable is that it alters nothing from the card itself."
Incorrect, soaking changes the ph of the card. Search "Pyrolysis" in 54's search feature to find why soaking a card is detrimental.Dave.

[sebie43]

Has anybody ever soaked an E-75?

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

"The reason that it is acceptable is that it alters nothing from the card itself."
Incorrect, soaking changes the ph of the card. Search "Pyrolysis" in 54's search feature to find why soaking a card is detrimental.Dave.

With pyrolysis you are making the assumption that one is using HOT water or steam to do the deed, that is not necessary.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

I have to echo what everyone said and say that soaking is much scarier than it is difficult. It can really enhance the look of a dirty card and remove the paper stuck to the back.

+1 to this, Alex. I'm too scared to soak any of my cards. I know a bunch of you guys have done so successfully, but with my luck, I'd be the rare exception, and destroy a piece of history. And even if it was only some $50 card, I'd want to punch myself in the face a few times.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

+1 to this, Alex. I'm too scared to soak any of my cards. I know a bunch of you guys have done so successfully, but with my luck, I'd be the rare exception, and destroy a piece of history. And even if it was only some $50 card, I'd want to punch myself in the face a few times.

I thought the same thing but luckily it turned out well. My wife doesn't care much about my collection but she loves it when I have a card that gets to soak. We both think it is pretty neat to see the water work it's magic.

[marcdelpercio]

I have soaked thousands of cards, including examples from virtually every major tobacco and caramel set. Most of the bad candidates for soaking have already been mentioned...E94, E98, colored Exhibits, Colgan's. I'd generally also recommend against soaking Old Judges, Fatimas or other similar glossy photographic cards as they can stain and warp in ways that can't be undone.

I do not in any way look at it as an alteration, simply because it is not affecting the card any more than blowing a piece of dust off of it would be. True alterations like trimming, recoloring, rebacking, etc all clearly change the composition of the card by adding, removing, or changing some aspect of the card's original state. Soaking does not do any of these things.

To answer an above comment, soaking in distilled water will not in any way affect the ph of the card and "pyrolysis" will not occur unless you are soaking your cards in a thermal vent at the bottom of the ocean or something. In fact, the temperature of paper would need to get to around 200 degrees before that process would begin to occur as it is basically the first stage of fire oxidation.

[glynparson]

I agree 100%

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Leon,

I respectfully disagree with your casual stance regarding taking a card for a soak. In my humble opinion, this practice is as unethical as trimming. Just my two cents.

Best,

Eric

Hey there Eric ,

I Respect your opinion & belief in every way!

Years ago I have had a many healthy debate/discussions about this ( Off ) topic.
I tend to be a realist and will most often refer to the Common Logic of the issue.
Eric, I do want you to know that there was a time that I thought somewhat as you do now. I didn’t believe that it was unethical, just Somehow Not Right.

Thus, my conclusion has brought me to this answer:

1st… We are Care Takers of an area of America’s most esteemed Past Time. I speaking of those who truly care for these pieces of history.
2nd …There is a difference between “Alteration” and “Restoration”. Altering (ie, Trimming…etc) a Card to get it passed a Part time/Rookie TPG’er for a Higher Grade is definitely Unethical. That’s Logical! Removing a substance that would potentially harm a Card over the Years, Pencil lead, Caramel (Which is basically Sugar, and Sugar deteriorates the hardest of Substances), glue, rust, etc… would be best for the Card, Right?
To my understanding, most Art Relics go thru some sort of periodic Restoration process, on “as needed” basis. Are you in the same frame of mind towards this process, deeming it Unethical?
Wouldn’t you want to protect and preserve these pieces for the future generations to come?

Just to add: Some of us might even pay for someone’s service in this area. I know of a gentleman in Florida who actually performs these tasks for a living.
Rhett mentioned the “101 of Soaking”, some of us might not be willing to even attempt the process.

Eric, if you could explain why soaking a Card would be “Unethical as Trimming”, I would truly listen!
Always willing to learn, maybe I missed something?

In ending, I Hope that the slight off topic, to a Very Good Topic thread, is cheerfully tolerated ; -)

As Always…

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

With pyrolysis you are making the assumption that one is using HOT water or steam to do the deed, that is not necessary.

No. Heat is just the total amount of kinetic energy in "normal" matter.
Anything above (theoretical) absolute zero is "heat".

[Runscott]

Regarding Old Judges, I haven't ever soaked these, but since they are albumens, and I HAVED soaked albumens , they theoretically should soak okay. But I would never do it, mainly because the backing is thicker and would curl - then you've got to deal drying it, which takes exponentially more time as the thickness of the backing increases - I know this from soaking mounted albumen cabinets. In the end, you are likely to have a slightly more attractive, curled card - I would leave those to professionals if you really have to get it done.

Also, not sure if I mentioned it elsewhere, but 'National Copper Plate' premiums soak very easily. I had a disaster of one that couldn't be hurt by soaking, and I was surprised to see how easy it was.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

No. Heat is just the total amount of kinetic energy in "normal" matter.

Anything above (theoretical) absolute zero is "heat".

Holy shit absolute zero. This convo is getting real.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

Thus, my conclusion has brought me to this answer:

1st… We are Care Takers of an area of America’s most esteemed Past Time. I speaking of those who truly care for these pieces of history.
2nd …There is a difference between “Alteration” and “Restoration”. Altering (ie, Trimming…etc) a Card to get it passed a Part time/Rookie TPG’er for a Higher Grade is definitely Unethical. That’s Logical! Removing a substance that would potentially harm a Card over the Years, Pencil lead, Caramel (Which is basically Sugar, and Sugar deteriorates the hardest of Substances), glue, rust, etc… would be best for the Card, Right?
To my understanding, most Art Relics go thru some sort of periodic Restoration process, on “as needed” basis. Are you in the same frame of mind towards this process, deeming it Unethical?
Wouldn’t you want to protect and preserve these pieces for the future generations to come?

Just to add: Some of us might even pay for someone’s service in this area. I know of a gentleman in Florida who actually performs these tasks for a living.
Rhett mentioned the “101 of Soaking”, some of us might not be willing to even attempt the process.

Eric, if you could explain why soaking a Card would be “Unethical as Trimming”, I would truly listen!
Always willing to learn, maybe I missed something?

In ending, I Hope that the slight off topic, to a Very Good Topic thread, is cheerfully tolerated ; -)

As Always…

Nice analysis. I understand Eric's position, as I feel the same way about albumen cards such as Old Judges. But I don't think the word 'unethical' should even be in this conversation. Many of us who feel soaking is okay, are not soaking because of a lack of ethics. And if you decided that it was okay to soak mounted albumen photos, I wouldn't consider you unethical, and I wouldn't feel like you should tell me the photo was soaked (although it would be nice). I just wouldn't do it myself.

If a buyer asked me if a card I was selling them had been soaked, and I knew the answer, I would certainly tell them. I guess the real question becomes: "If you were required to describe a card you were selling, as 'soaked', would you continue to soak cards?"

As far as alterations go, I do feel that the seller has to disclose the fact, or they are being unethical.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Anything above (theoretical) absolute zero is "heat".

You better start freezing your cards then David to get them to absolute zero, you wouldn't want their pH to change on you if they got above that!


David, I get what you are saying (I am a dentist and took more science classes in college than I wish to remember) but you are really splitting hairs here and it is hard to take what you say seriously, that is if you are actually being serious. It's hard to tell since you seem to be one of those guys that frequently gets in arguments with others on this board.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

You better start freezing your cards then David to get them to absolute zero, you wouldn't want their pH to change on you if they got above that!

Not just freezing them. We are talking Demolition Man style cryogenic freezing.

[Cardboard Junkie]

absolute zero is just a theoretical point, like a singularity, it doesn't exist.

I don't want to argue with anyone. Soaking a card may improve its appearance but it will certainly change the ph level of the matter and increase its rate of degradation. That's why professional consevators add chemicals to their soaking solutions to stabilize the material, to prevent further and more rapid decay.
But why discuss this subject, it isn't about what you believe, it is about fact. Ask a professional if pencil/pen/marks can be erased without damaging the fibers. Ask if soaking a card is detrimental in the long run, (it is) Many times these marks can be removed without change to the naked eye. Under the proper the magnification and light, there will always be a trace.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

absolute zero is just a theoretical point, like a singularity, it doesn't exist.

I don't want to argue with anyone. Soaking a card may improve its appearance but it will certainly change the ph level of the matter and increase its rate of degradation. That's why professional consevators add chemicals to their soaking solutions to stabilize the material, to prevent further and more rapid decay.
But why discuss this subject, it isn't about what you believe, it is about fact. Ask a professional if pencil/pen/marks can be erased without damaging the fibers. Ask if soaking a card is detrimental in the long run, (it is) Many times these marks can be removed without change to the naked eye. Under the proper the magnification and light, there will always be a trace.

One could argue that if changing the ph is one direction is harmful, then changing the ph is the other direction would be beneficial. I foresee an investment opportunity in litmus paper as collector's strive to optimize the ph of their collections. I have instructed my broker to look into:

Guangzhou Norm Scientific Instrument Co., Ltd
Shenzhen Yahee High Technologies Corp. Limited &
Hangzhou Liandong Import & Export Co., Ltd.

These are the big 3 litmus paper producers. Whatever happened to good old American Litmus?

I also think TPGs should measure ph and put it on the flip prior to encapsulation.

[Cardboard Junkie]

...in a nitrogen charged chamber, I presume.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

Not just freezing them. We are talking Demolition Man style cryogenic freezing.

Is that like 'Splendid Splintered head' freezing?!?

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Is that like 'Splendid Splintered head' freezing?!?

No. It's much more entertaining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_Man_(film)

[Jim65]

Has anyone soaked Bowmans?

I have a '51 Bowman Otto Graham this is beautiful except has some masking tape on the back.

[ullmandds]

not sure if masking tape's adhesive is water soluble...but I'd guess the card can take it.

[SMPEP]

Can't believe it worked ... but you can add Butterfingers to the list of cards that can be soaked. Just be very careful peeling the backing paper/cardboard off as the butterfingers can rip easily.

Cheers,
Patrick

[JasonD08]

What about E95s?

[ullmandds]

id presume e95's would soak just fine.

[Paul S]

The Black Swamp Find! MY gosh, could you imagine being submerged in a black swamp for a century, and coming out like THAT! I'm thinking of taking a dip in there myself.

[slipk1068]

I read this thread and didn't see anyone mention T207. I have a few T207's with that have a couple spots of glue on the back. The glossy front concerns me. Anyone ever soak a T207?

I am not even sure I would soak them because I am on the fence about whether it is ethical. The long-term affect it will have on cards concerns me. I guess I am leaning towards it being ethical because in some cases, like removing stains, it may preserve the card.

[tuckr1]

Would soaking this card get rid of the splotches?? Not sure what it is, ink? dirt??

Thanks

[ullmandds]

maybe tuckr1...scan is kinda small...hard to see whats going ton there?

[mullinsm]

I'd like to add that T227's may be included on the list of cards that can be soaked.

I was the only bidder on this McDermott in a recent auction, and I bought it specifically to try as my first soak. The card looked terrible, so I figured I didn't have much to lose. The back was completely covered by thick, yellowed, heavy lined paper, and the text underneath was completely unreadable:



As per your suggestions, I used warm, soft tap water, a bowl, a pair of tweezers, and a q-tip. I gently slipped the card into the water and watched it sink.

After only a few minutes, the edges of the glued on paper began to curl up. After 15 minutes of soaking, I was able to easily lift most of the paper off the card. It would have all come up in one piece, if not for the white spot on the right center of the card. It was another kind of glue, or gum, or who knows what, but I had to pull with gentle-but-firm steady pressure for it to slowly let go.



After removing the paper, I replaced the dirty water and let the card soak for another 30 min. I wanted to ensure that any glue residue remaining would be gone before I placed the card on paper towels to dry.

I dried the card overnight using paper towels and a stack of books. I changed out the towels a few times before retiring, then checked on my progress today:



I'm thrilled with how it turned out. It's still a card in poor condition, but now at least it's one I can read and enjoy. For the $10 bid, it was well worth it.

Thanks so much to everyone for their suggestions!

[deadballfreaK]

Maybe 10 years ago I bought about 90 Sporting News M-101-2s glued on loose album pages. one on each side of most sheets. There were about 80 diff, including almost every superstar. Missing Joe Jackson. A couple were damaged by insects. I was gambling that they could be removed. First try didn't work because I chickened out and did not let soak long enough. So they sat around for years. Finally I got the nerve up and tried again. Took one of the least valuable and put it in the kitchen sink and let it go. After about 30 minutes it floated clear. Eventually I was able to remove all but 3 or 4 with no damage whatsoever. They just have discoloration on the back from the 9 globs of glue used. Let me tell you I was almost shaking trying to dip some of them out of the water so as not to tear them in their softened state. The hardest one to take swimming had the Wagner-Cobb pose on one side and Matty on the other. You really have to be careful so as not to tear . I took a sheet of firm plastic and slipped under each one in order to get it out of the water. Then put between 2 paper towels and stacked a ton of books on top. Changed the paper towels about 3 times and let dry overnight with the books still pressing them. Worked fantastic. Not bad for less than ten bucks apiece!

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

I read this thread and didn't see anyone mention T207. I have a few T207's with that have a couple spots of glue on the back. The glossy front concerns me. Anyone ever soak a T207?

I am not even sure I would soak them because I am on the fence about whether it is ethical. The long-term affect it will have on cards concerns me. I guess I am leaning towards it being ethical because in some cases, like removing stains, it may preserve the card.

I second this. Anyone have results from soaking T207's?

[leaflover]

I soaked Salmon and Trout and they liked it!

[Paul S]

Mike, a braisen move on your part.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

No offense taken. I think we have had this conversation before on the board and people seem to have strong opinions on both sides.

If you are doing something to the card that you do not disclose to the buyer than you are doing something wrong...

to me soaking worse than 'schilling' that everyone is angry about...

fine to soak if you disclose it to the buyer.....if not a big deal then the buyer will pay the same no?

You can do it to your own cards but eventually they will reach the secondary market....

[1880nonsports]

have been soaked from something. The cards look better without paper glued on the back that wasn't originally there. If you ever buy a card from me please assume it was at one time soaked - something I will freely disclose if asked............
the double standard quote was quite good.

[1880nonsports]

leaves me nearly speechless.....................

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

leaves me nearly speechless.....................

+1

[1952boyntoncollector]

You don't have to buy a card if its priced to high......plus whoever is shilling..if they 'win' the item they will pay 10% etc..so I don't think it can be that common.... if a card you want to sell for 250..and its at 200..you going to shill for 220? if win you just lost 22 dollars..makes no sense

there are enough ebay auctions and auctions out there we can come up with what we want to offer for a card..if a card is bid too high, we don't buy it..

a reserve is almost the same thing as a schill bid or a starting price at the amount the seller wants...it all comes down to what the buyer wants to pay for the card....a card is worth what someone wants to pay for it..

but at least the buyer knows exactly what the card is.... a soaked card that is not disclosed is assumed to be not soaked........why not tell the buyers on ebay that a card is soaked if no big deal? I haven't seen one listing that says that..

however I see lots of starting prices and reserves on cards...so buyers know how much the seller wants for the card, shilled or not.....at least the buyer knows what the card is..

when cards are won , they we know what someone was willing to pay for the card..whether there were prior shill bids or not.......the card is the card.....

if put 'card was soaked'...will the prices go down from a same listing in which saying the card wasn't soaked?..... if the value is the same..then i a wrong soaking doesn't matter...


but if someone is willing to pay $500 for a card whether there was a shilling to get there or a reserve price...was the problem...to the buyer its worth $500........if put 'buy it now' for $500...or shilling..the outcome is the same....with the soaking ..its not...or lets see at least one ebay listing saying card was soaked...

if a seller of a 1952 Mantle psa tells you on an auction yesterday, that he shilled up to $30,000..cause he didn't want it go for less than that..and he risked paying $3,000 if he
'won' and the card ultimately sold for $35,000...would you subtract value for that? how about if he told you in soaked the card? ...which one hurts the value more..thoughts?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Kzoo

+1

leaves me speechless..that you are left speechless

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

have been soaked from something. The cards look better without paper glued on the back that wasn't originally there. If you ever buy a card from me please assume it was at one time soaked - something I will freely disclose if asked............
the double standard quote was quite good.

I am fine with that soaking to restore etc..as long as it is assumed or known to the buyer... I wouldn't assume that on a 1952 topps card for example....

[Peter_Spaeth]

The overwhelming majority of collectors do not oppose soaking. You are free to believe what you want, of course. But huge numbers of prewar cards have been soaked to remove them safely from scrapbooks, just a fact of life. And I very much doubt you can tell.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The overwhelming majority of collectors do not oppose soaking. You are free to believe what you want, of course. But huge numbers of prewar cards have been soaked to remove them safely from scrapbooks, just a fact of life. And I very much doubt you can tell.

How about postwar..i think my issue is more with postwar...

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

How about postwar..i think my issue is more with postwar...

You should share your thoughts of Post-War soaking in that section.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

You should share your thoughts of Post-War soaking in that section.

Well I talking about both pre and post war..so thought it would be better to take care of in one thread instead of two separate threads....

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

You should share your thoughts of Post-War soaking in that section.

+1 (again)

[xplainer]

What about T206 Polar Bears? The front has several tobacco stains (scrap tobacco), but I'm concerned about the black/blue ink on the back. Anyone soaked a Polar bear?

(Yeah, I set the pins up so someone can knock them down.)

Note: This is my PC. Not to be sold at a later date. My Jimmy Lavender collection.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

If you are doing something to the card that you do not disclose to the buyer than you are doing something wrong...

to me soaking worse than 'schilling' that everyone is angry about...

fine to soak if you disclose it to the buyer.....if not a big deal then the buyer will pay the same no?

You can do it to your own cards but eventually they will reach the secondary market....

I'll respond since I was quoted. Soaking happens and is usually not disclosed. Right or wrong it happens. I would wager that virtually all crisp pre-war cards were glued into a book at one time.