Blue front 1958 Hank Aaron

[tbob]

Just curious about the card which was in eBay and went off last night. I bid on it but as it was bearing $400 I bailed. I am strictly a pre-war guy but just finished a master set of '58s with all the yellow name and team variations, card by card, because it was my first set as a little kid that I collected.
The blue 'freak' Aaron was a pretty card. Very blue, not bluish green (the normal Aaron's are dark green). I wondered how common this card was, or rather how rare? Has anyone ever seen one of these before? Thanks for weighing in. Sorry for not having the link but it was sold by gregmorris cards the night of 3-9 on the Bay.

Bob, here's a pic and a link to the auction:




http://www.ebay.com/itm/1958-Topps-S...item58acc0352e

[NateMack]

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item...obalID=EBAY-US

Found it, here is a link. Hope it works

[vintage954]

That blue variation went for a lot!

I have an off topic question for everyone, and I didn't want to start a war but does anyone buy from gregmorriscards? I've been buying from him for years and always picked up commons for .99-1.50 but within the last two months I've noticed the same exact cards I've purchased multiple times going for 3 or 4 times more.
I'm starting to think that he is "shilling" his own auctions. Am I out of line?

[ALR-bishop]

Here is mine. It is scarce but recurring.I have seen at least a half dozen on ebay or in threads. Do not know if they are all due to light damage or a print run defect. If the latter, you would think other cards in the set would be affected. I did not pay nearly that much for mine on ebay a couple of years back, but it has since been discussed in threads here and on CU ,and so may now have more recognition in the community of variation/oddity collectors

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by vintage954

That blue variation went for a lot!

I have an off topic question for everyone, and I didn't want to start a war but does anyone buy from gregmorriscards? I've been buying from him for years and always picked up commons for .99-1.50 but within the last two months I've noticed the same exact cards I've purchased multiple times going for 3 or 4 times more.
I'm starting to think that he is "shilling" his own auctions. Am I out of line?

"Shilling" is hardly off topic in these parts but you'll be reminded to use your full name if you are going to accuse someone directly. Can you at least provide some examples? Links, etc.

[vintage954]

Remember, I'm not "accusing" anyone. I simply asked if anyone is noticing it. Like I said, I've ordered from Greg for years and I continue to order daily and WILL continue.

[bnorth]

The blue cards are because they are missing the yellow from the printing process or it was removed. Yellow is very easy to remove and I would guess 99% of this type of cards are altered. The missing ink cards are my 2nd favorite printing error. I never buy them unless I can look at them in hand because finding a real one is next to impossible. Notice how this mysteriously only happens on star players cards.

Can't give a 100% yes or no on this one. The area around the Indian is the only place that really worries me. If it is real it should not be that off white, It should be white like the borders.

[ALR-bishop]

Here is a different example that Ben and I discussed in another thread. Likely due exposure to light. Maybe tampering.

[frankh8147]

"I have an off topic question for everyone, and I didn't want to start a war but does anyone buy from gregmorriscards? I've been buying from him for years and always picked up commons for .99-1.50 but within the last two months I've noticed the same exact cards I've purchased multiple times going for 3 or 4 times more.
I'm starting to think that he is "shilling" his own auctions. Am I out of line?"


As far as I am concerned, he is a very, very good seller. I won the below item at a very fair price and have been looking for it a few years so as far as i'm concerned, he's a hero haha. I messaged him a few times during the process and he was very professional, courteous and polite. My point though, if his higher dollar items are selling at fair prices, I highly doubt he would shill lower dollar items.

[ALR-bishop]

If I had a prior or ongoing business relationship with a seller with whom I was otherwise generally pleased, and noticed some odd results in recent auctions in which I participated, I would first take up the matter directly with the seller, who may or may not have a simple explanation.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by vintage954

That blue variation went for a lot!

I have an off topic question for everyone, and I didn't want to start a war but does anyone buy from gregmorriscards? I've been buying from him for years and always picked up commons for .99-1.50 but within the last two months I've noticed the same exact cards I've purchased multiple times going for 3 or 4 times more.
I'm starting to think that he is "shilling" his own auctions. Am I out of line?

Greg and I never have and never will shill auctions. Every card sold. I can't release who won the card but it is a very avid collector.

[Republicaninmass]

I would hope by now most of us in the hobby know who 9***9 is although one of the lower bidders b***b had/has some strange habits

[vintagetoppsguy]

Nevermind, I was confused.

[Sean1125]

redacted

[Rich Klein]

One of the dealers at my little Plano show last Sunday bought a blue front Aaron he only found out about through Sean's auctions. He thinks it will grade a "7".

Rich

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I would hope by now most of us in the hobby know who 9***9 is although one of the lower bidders b***b had/has some strange habits

Not sure what this means but if you are suggesting that this is a shill bidder I can assure you this is not the case. This is a bidder who seriously wanted the card and is well respected in the hobby.

[mrmantlecollector]

Here is mine. Picked it up at a card show a couple of years ago fo $20.00
Have seen a few more sence then and there have been a couple of post on this card on this forum.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by mrmantlecollector

Here is mine. Picked it up at a card show a couple of years ago fo $20.00
Have seen a few more sence then and there have been a couple of post on this card on this forum.

Thanks Jerry, I appreciate seeing the card and the info!
Bob M.

[mattsedate]

Originally Posted by NewEnglandBaseBallist

Bob, here's a pic and a link to the auction:




http://www.ebay.com/itm/1958-Topps-S...item58acc0352e

The true home run king.

[mattsedate]

Originally Posted by frankh8147

"I have an off topic question for everyone, and I didn't want to start a war but does anyone buy from gregmorriscards? I've been buying from him for years and always picked up commons for .99-1.50 but within the last two months I've noticed the same exact cards I've purchased multiple times going for 3 or 4 times more.
I'm starting to think that he is "shilling" his own auctions. Am I out of line?"


As far as I am concerned, he is a very, very good seller. I won the below item at a very fair price and have been looking for it a few years so as far as i'm concerned, he's a hero haha. I messaged him a few times during the process and he was very professional, courteous and polite. My point though, if his higher dollar items are selling at fair prices, I highly doubt he would shill lower dollar items.

The people could be shilling out of spite and get outbid, so the items go for higher in price. He may not have anything to do with it. There seem to be so many different ways of shilling. There are probably people that have shilled and don't view it and having shilled.

[Exhibitman]

Great thread here, guys.

After reading the posts and looking for a blue card for a while I am less comfortable with their legitimacy than I had been before. The white letter variation of the Aaron card has yellow in the logo area and a green background. Ditto the other white letter cards--they have their normal yellows. If the Aaron is legit, there should be an entire sheet worth of printing errors without yellow in them to accompany it, and given the number of them we are seeing lately, there should be quite a few no-yellow cards that are not the white letter variation. So I guess the question is, does anyone else have a yellow ink totally missing card from the 1958 series the Aaron is in?

[ALR-bishop]

Could you "create" such a card by exposure to the sun or other light source ?

Anyone know what cards are on the same sheet with the Aaron ?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Could you "create" such a card by exposure to the sun or other light source ?

Anyone know what cards are on the same sheet with the Aaron ?

Al you would be amazed at what can be "created" with proper exposure.

[ALR-bishop]

Well, I only paid $25 for mine sometime back, so I like it

[doug.goodman]

Adam -

I hadn't seen your post before we had lunch today, it was good to see you.

The blue Aaron that started this thread was once owned by me, I have held all of the variations in my hands at the same time and I believe it to be "real", not faded.

I agree that it seems that there should be other cards with similar issues, I occasionally run searches on those cards, but have never seen any of them.

I believe that other potential blue back cards should be - Burdette, Mantilla, Rice, Ernie Johnson, Tanner, Logan and Torre.

Doug

[BillP]

Originally Posted by vintage954

That blue variation went for a lot!

I have an off topic question for everyone, and I didn't want to start a war but does anyone buy from gregmorriscards? I've been buying from him for years and always picked up commons for .99-1.50 but within the last two months I've noticed the same exact cards I've purchased multiple times going for 3 or 4 times more.
I'm starting to think that he is "shilling" his own auctions. Am I out of line?

I have bought many and am always pleased with the grading and service. I do think that the cards are bid up higher than base, but I attribute that to the somewhat undergrading that is in the description. I doubt that someone, for commons has the wherewithal to bid up these cards.

[glynparson]

But I have seen two in my life before they were considered a better card then the regular Aaron. Back in the late 1980s there was one every week at the leesport flea market. Priced at about 75% of Beckett which at the time was laughably high because people considered this a major defect. I saw another in a collection sometime in the mid1990s. Mostly mid to higher grade cards, lititz pa, man had multiples up to 20 of every topps card 1955 -1962. Bought some of collection, never could get ahold if him for the rest. I am not saying you can not create them but I am highly confident it is a legit card in some cases.

[ALR-bishop]

There is one of these in the current Heritage Auction , lot 80707, a BVG 6.5, MB $200

[bnorth]

After a little "testing" in my home lab I would say that at least 99.9% of the blue 1958 Aaron cards are fake. I would say all of them, but there is a slim chance 1 or 2 might be real. If it was just not the Aaron that shows up blue in this set I would give it a little more chance of being real. Since there are no other blue cards showing up I stick with most are fake/altered.

Not wanting to chance hurting a 58 Aaron card I picked card #451 Joe Taylor as my test subject from the 58 Topps set. I know it has a different shade of green background, but in science green is green.

Here are the before after pictures and before anyone asks no I will not tell you how it is done.

[glynparson]

Statement that there are probably real ones out there as I had seen the Aaron back when this would have been seen as a negative and not a positive, also cards don't look quite the same to me as an Aaron.

[sflayank]

of course the blue aarons are counterfeit...amazing to me it took this long for someone to say it

[steve B]

I'd say that's proof that some are fake. Thanks for doing the experiment.

I also understand not telling how. For what it's worth you might share that with the big three grading companies. fwiw I'd be very interested in knowing, from a technical standpoint. I was the sort of person to fake stuff I'd have done it long ago. Having the technical knowledge includes the responsibility of not using it the wrong way.

Did the process leave any clues behind? It looks like the cards logo didn't have the yellow entirely removed. But I'm wondering if whatever was done left chemical residue, or changed how the card reacts to UV. If there's a way to tell an actual missing color card from an altered one that would be the best outcome.

Without that, I'd have to say that any Topps card with missing yellow should be suspected of being altered.
Besides the cards that would be obvious like green backgrounds, there should be commons with less obvious missing yellow if it's actually missing. (And of course, they'd be just as easy to fake)

Steve B

Originally Posted by bnorth

After a little "testing" in my home lab I would say that at least 99.9% of the blue 1958 Aaron cards are fake. I would say all of them, but there is a slim chance 1 or 2 might be real. If it was just not the Aaron that shows up blue in this set I would give it a little more chance of being real. Since there are no other blue cards showing up I stick with most are fake/altered.

Not wanting to chance hurting a 58 Aaron card I picked card #451 Joe Taylor as my test subject from the 58 Topps set. I know it has a different shade of green background, but in science green is green.

Here are the before after pictures and before anyone asks no I will not tell you how it is done.

[ALR-bishop]

Originally Posted by sflayank

of course the blue aarons are counterfeit...amazing to me it took this long for someone to say it

Not sure about the rest Larry but I was waiting for your opinion before deciding which way to go

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sflayank

of course the blue aarons are counterfeit...amazing to me it took this long for someone to say it

I have been saying it since post 8 in this thread. I just have proof now that they can be made.

Steve there is no chemical residue on the card and it reacts the same as any normal card from the 1958 Topps set under UV light.

Not all missing color cards are suspect. Some year/brand of cards are easy to remove colors and some are not.

This card is one of the few cards I 100% stand behind as leaving the factory missing the yellow ink. I have found a few other cards from this set also missing the yellow.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Not sure about the rest Larry but I was waiting for your opinion before deciding which way to go

No faith in me Al?

[doug.goodman]

Showing that it is possible to create a fake blue card does not prove that all blue cards are fake.

Doug

[Footballdude]

Been reading, and re-reading, this thread with interest. First let me say I am not generally a baseball collector and I have never owned a '58 Aaron, so I cannot comment on other peoples card that they have in their hands and can see better than I.
Having said that, I am generally a skeptic, and here is why.

Doing some general research on printing, I have found out that this type of printing is referred to as CMYK printing (C=cyan, M=magenta, Y=yellow, and K="key" or black). It is my understanding that printing is generally done in the order of the initials. In otherwords, a sheet is printed with cyan first, Magenta second, yellow third and finally black. There are a couple ways I could see a sheet getting through without the yellow being printed.
1 - The press ran out of yellow ink.
2 - An operator removed the sheet after the magenta printing, skipped the yellow and put it back on the press before the black (not likely in my mind).
3 - 2 consecutive sheets could have got stuck together after printing the cyan and magenta. If stuck together, the top sheet would recieve the yellow, but not the bottom sheet. This sort of thing happens, I'm sure, however it doesn't seem likely that the sheets would separate after the yellow and each make it through the black process. I would think if the sheets got stuck together, the bottom sheet would miss the yellow and the black.

Regardless if any of these happens, the fact remains that the entire sheet would be missing the yellow.

Here is a picture I found on the internet, of a partial(?) uncut sheet of 77, 1958 Topps baseball cards, that includes the Aaron card.

[IMG][/IMG]
If a single sheet, assuming a sheet only consisted of these 77 cards, made it through without the yellow, then not only would there be a blue Aaron card, but the 32 cards shown that have a yellow background, would in fact be white. This would include Ted Williams, Duke Snider and Don Drysdale.

My own opinion is that most are sun, or light faded, but I don't mean intentionally.

I have seen numerous card dealers over the years, both in shops and open-air sellers, who have had the same stock of show case cards for years. Cards that sit in showcases, without being rotated or sold, will, over time, fade from the sun or even fluorescent lights.
the Aron card is a key card in the set and would have been more likely to be in a showcase than other "common cards from the set, thus it is more likely to get faded.

Does this mean that all are illegitimate? Of course not. Anything is possible with Topps' suspect quality control.

Looking at some of the "blue" Aarons I can find on the net, it is obvious to me they are indeed faded. You can still tell the white around the Braves logo has yellow tinge to it, compared to the white border of the card.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[ALR-bishop]

Thanks for your contribution Richard. Good post

[brewing]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

After reading the posts and looking for a blue card for a while I am less comfortable with their legitimacy than I had been before. The white letter variation of the Aaron card has yellow in the logo area and a green background. Ditto the other white letter cards--they have their normal yellows. If the Aaron is legit, there should be an entire sheet worth of printing errors without yellow in them to accompany it, and given the number of them we are seeing lately, there should be quite a few no-yellow cards that are not the white letter variation. So I guess the question is, does anyone else have a yellow ink totally missing card from the 1958 series the Aaron is in?

Adam was the first to bring it up and Richard restated it with a picture of the sheet.

Put me in the camp that believes the ones that have been in the hobby when it was considered a negative are from fading and the newer ones are from the same or intentional fading.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by brewing

Put me in the camp that believes the ones that have been in the hobby when it was considered a negative are from fading and the newer ones are from the same or intentional fading.

This is what I believe also. I have never seen a real non faded one and ALL the pictures of them I have seen including the ones in this thread have the signs of "fading".

One of the things I look for in a real missing yellow card or one that has been faded is if there is any yellow at all left. In my experience yellow shows up in a picture better than it does on the card in hand. A faint even yellow is a big red flag for me. Like in the logo of every card pictured in this thread. On all the real light yellow printed cards I have seen the yellow in not as even with lighter/darker spots in it as the ink runs out in the press. I know we have a couple others with printing experience please add your experience also.

The Mantle pictured below is an example of what a card looks like before the press completely runs out of ink. It is a patchy yellow not a faint even yellow. It is easiest to see in the words Valuable Players.

I also want to point out I am not trying to put anybodys card(s) down I am just trying to save error collector's a lot of money by not buying altered cards.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Thanks for your contribution Richard. Good post

Yes, thank you Richard.

[doug.goodman]

Maybe...

Just maybe...

The yellow on some printings of the 1958 sheet that contains the Aaron cardhad a similar issue to the black on some 1990 printings that caused the Frank Thomas no name error.

Maybe.

[Footballdude]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Yes, thank you Richard.

You're very welcome. I actually never heard of these, but it was fun looking into it.


I remember when the Frank Thomas no name error came out. It was all the rage. But until last night I had no idea how it was caused. It appears a piece of some foreign "material" got trapped between the printing plate and the sheet, causing large portions of several cards to come up minus the black ink.

I guess something like this could have happened in the Aaron case as well. Anything is possible with Topps, especially since they were probably not too concerned with what future card collectors thought. However like the Thomas card, there should be at the very least, a few cards surrounding it affected by it as well.

[roce4e52]

These are cards I have picked up over my 7 years working on this set. Any opinions on the square blotches of correct color? Also paid less than $100 for all the blues so don't think they were made this way on purpose but not sure how they came to look like they do.

[brewing]

My theory on the blotches.
They were in a card shop near a window or under a light, and the holder had a price tag on it.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by brewing

My theory on the blotches.
They were in a card shop near a window or under a light, and the holder had a price tag on it.

Bingo we have a winner. Those square and round spots on faded cards are caused by price stickers. I buy these cards when I can find then. It lets me know what year/brand cards fade easily and what colors on the card fade. It is different for different year/brand and even back to front on some cards. Knowing this information has saved me a lot of $ from buying altered cards over the years.

ALR-bishop(Hi AL)started a thread a while back on fake cards in this section. As I have time in the next week or so I will add some pictures and information on faded/altered cards and how to spot them in that thread.

[Exhibitman]

Bingo! Those sticker patches are great evidence.

[roce4e52]

I would assume then that the reason we do not see the other low number commons with the missing/faded yellow is because they would never have been displayed but kept in boxes.?. So far have only found the stars as seen above.
Bill D.

[brewing]

There is a similar white letter 1969 Mantle on the bay right now. Looks faded to me, but it's in a slab.