1938 Goudey Proof

[barrysloate]

Not a private email...not that!

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Update: Another deal just closed.

Geez..I almost wish I hadn't told him to stay out of my inbox.

No Christmas wishes for me....

[birdman42]

Originally Posted by Yankeefan51

Whilst we don't want to interrupt your fun, and recognize there are only a handful of Board Members who could

(a) appreciate the sheet and its history
(b) sell their entire collection for the value the Garter Sheet would realize

Bruce,

While I might agree with you on #2, I disagree with #1. I'm an armpit collector if ever there was one, but just looking at the picture of that sheet--and I can only imagine how beautiful it is in person--I can fully appreciate both its history and its significance as a hobby item.

Originally Posted by Yankeefan51

We thought you would like to know that the piece was discovered by Mr. Mint in the late 1980's... he didn't know what it was and sold it for a song to
Bill Mastro who sold it to Rob Lifson, who sold it to us.

You bought the sheet from Rob, so you probably paid a very fair price at the time for the item. Most areas of the hobby have seen big price increases over the last 20 years. I wonder how much the poor sap got from Mr. Mint, though--who probably thought he was making a killing when he sold it "for a song."

Originally Posted by Yankeefan51

As for selling it...while the Chase is on...there is very little Chance

Now see? There's the other Bruce. The personable Bruce who can have a little fun with the hobby. I say, show us some more of that guy.

Bill

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Leon

Just to pile on the fact that it's not a big deal, I too think an innocent mistake is just that, innocent and no big deal. I wish this mistake Brucii made was even in the top 200 that I have ever made. I would be clicking my heels and happy as a lark. When you can laugh at yourself is the time you know you have your esteem in the correct place. I am not sure the Group is there yet. The other day I went around all day wearing one of my T-shirts inside out. My 13 yr old pointed it out. We had a great laugh. That is what life is all about. Afterwards I went ahead and put it on, right side out. Who cares? Life is too short not to be able to laugh at yourself. best regards

Leon,
Here in the deep south (you know the home of rotting little shacks just to keep this on topic) that is how we do it. It cuts the need to do laundry in half.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Bigb13

Whats the problem on this board? Is it only a certain few that can respond on this board? I responded to something before and its gone. Why? Rob

Bigb13,

I'm not sure what you're looking for. All of your posts are still here. Nothing is gone. I responded, politely, to your question...twice. The answer was pretty simplistic, because the question was pretty easy. You didn't ask any additional questions.

What else do you want? More opinions on how to get your money back? What do you expect from the board?

Truth is, this wasn't a thread you started. How can you complain that it's gone off track?

Now, if Archive complains, we'll listen.

[Anthony S.]

I was thrown from a moving train by an Archive when I was 12.

Still wake up screaming.

So what is the realized value of that sheet. If I am not mistaken I do think there are many board members here that could sell their collection and buy several of those sheets. Kinda like my T205 Johnson SGC 7. To me a very big deal but to others it is just a card because they may own one the same or higher, or just a better and more rare card.

[packs]

Excuse me for my ignorance, but why are the Boston Garter cards so revered? They're pretty doofy cards. Doesn't their inherent rarity come from the fact that most people probably hated them and didn't keep them? I know sets automatically acrue value based on supply, but why the Garters to such a high degree?

[barrysloate]

Boston Garters weren't really a card set in the traditional sense. They are more like advertising cards, and were likely available only in stores that sold the product. They weren't something kids were likely to collect at the time they were issued. Most collectors today find them to be quite attractive, and they are certainly rare.

[packs]

Beauty is certainly in the eyes of the beholder. To me it would be hard to part with thousands of dollars for a picture of a guy in his underwear. Though I like the examples from the other years a lot more, especially the Sepias.

[barrysloate]

There are three different years of Garters. There's a picture of a second color design, in fact Joe Jackson, in the memorabilia section in the thread about best pickups of the decade. And there was a black and white photographic issue the final year of production- there is a picture of one over here in the best pickups of 2009 thread. It's a very interesting three year issue.

[Al C.risafulli]

Seller is officially a dirtbag.

His first listing said he'd only seen one of these before.

The week after it sold, he listed another, and his listing said he'd only seen one other. I jokingly said "Is he going to list another one next week, and say he's only seen two others?"

Well that's exactly what he did.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1938-GOUDEY-PROO...ht_1050wt_1146

There's got to be a way to stop this.

-Al

[Robextend]

And not surprising positive feedback has already been left on the McCormick he sold:

"nice 38 proof!!! unique!! fast shipping!"

[TomKovacs]

baseballscrapbook14.jpg

Here is "proof" of where the McCormick came from, in case there was any doubt of what these really are.

[teetwoohsix]

So now we can see where the fronts of the cards are coming from,pretty much figured out where the backs of the cards are from-GAI says they no longer grade cards,that was the "old"GAI-the "Goudey" is spelled "Goudy" on the flips,which makes you have to wonder if this was an inside job-maybe before they chose to stop grading cards,someone decided to slab the "fake-whatever-they-are's" and intentionally spell Goudey wrong so they can't be accused of some type of fraud..............the "decent" thing would be for GAI to shed some light on these "cards",even if they did stop grading cards...........

[painthistorian]

The person that is selling these cards happens to live in the same town as us, he is a regular vendor on e bay that also has sold under id disney123. He is a reliable dealer and personable guy although he is really is not knowledgeable about vintage cards. The fact that he is selling these frankencards is wrong but GAI is very wrong for ever putting their "new label" on this issue and I just cannot believe Mike Baker will not admit they made a mistake and take this off the market.

[Al C.risafulli]

The seller has been advised multiple times that the cards he's selling are fake. He continues to sell them anyway. On top of that, he's being deceptive in his selling/listing technique with the "only seen one other" listing. Next week he'll list a fourth card and say he's "only seen three others."

He knows enough to know what he's doing. The seller does not get a pass in this case, in my book.

That said, the cards in the holders are fake. Thankfully, though, the flips are tamper-proof, so at least we don't have to worry about that. I guess it's just unfortunate that they're not water-tight as well.

-Al

[Al C.risafulli]

Guess what! The seller has another one listed!

And this time, he's only seen THREE other proofs!

What a dirtbag, and a deliberate attempt to deceive.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1938-GOUDEY-PROO...#ht_966wt_1146

-Al

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Bigb13

Whats the problem on this board? Is it only a certain few that can respond on this board? I responded to something before and its gone. Why? Rob

Not to worry Al. The first and third ones auctioned went to the same seller. And the second one, which went to Bigb13 has also been delivered.

I do find it interesting that the guy who was mad at everyone, received his card, and left positive feedback.

A month ago he wanted to know where to go to get his money back (GAI, Ebay, Paypal, the seller?)

Now, he's happy with the card.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Not to worry Al. The first and third ones auctioned went to the same seller. And the second one, which went to Bigb13 has also been delivered.

I do find it interesting that the guy who was mad at everyone received his card and left positive feedback.

A month ago he wanted to know where to go to get his money back (GAI, Ebay, Paypal, the seller?)

Now, he's happy with the card.

A happy customer is a repeat customer. Lets just hope all of those folks happy with their "cards" continue to buy them so no one else will get burnt.

[Bigb13]

Well now that I see that scrapbook with those pictures in it I have reopened my paypal claim as now I see proof that they were card out of a mag and glued onto a 35 Goudey. Rob

[Al C.risafulli]

Rob:

With all due respect, you found this thread a month ago. It contained all the proof necessary to make it clear that these "cards" were phony.

The expert who graded these cards disassociated himself with them without giving you any information whatsoever, which should really be all you needed.

On the 14th, you were asking this forum if you should go back to Global and ask for your money back, and on the 30th you were leaving positive feedback for the seller (4 days after Tom posted the scan of the magazine cutouts).

At some point between December 14 and December 30, you decided that all the expertise on this board was incorrect, and that the card was good enough to leave positive feedback for the seller. What changed your mind?

-Al

[Jim VB]

You ask a lot of questions for a man from New Jersey!

[Bigb13]

In the first place I do have a life and am not on this board very minute of my life like some of you guys. Second I did not see the picture of the scrapbook until today again my fault that I was not watching every move on this subject but had to pull myself away so I could busy myself with my family. As for the positive feedback you can see all I put was interesting card. Some of the people here did have doubts about it. Some thought it might be real but today when I saw it in the scrapbook I knew for sure it was fake. So you must forgive me for not getting on here more often. But I contacted pay pal and they reopened the case and they said that they were looking into the one he has up now. If the person that has that scrapbook could possibly put up another picture but with the whole page I would appreciate that greatly. Rob

[Al C.risafulli]

Rob, I think you're misunderstanding me.

I'm not asking what happened between December 30 and today.

I'm asking what happened between December 14, when you were on this forum asking where you should go to get your money back, and December 30, when you left positive feedback for the seller.

On the 14th you were convinced the card was bad.

On the 30th you left positive feedback.

Something changed your mind in that 16-day period. What was it?

I ask because feedback stating "THIS CARD IS A FAKE" might have prevented others from bidding on the next ones that the seller has offered. He's put a total of four on eBay now, knowing each one was a fake.

Instead, there's positive feedback, which doesn't warn potential bidders.

So I'm curious as to what made you decide that the cards might be real?

-Al

PS - For the record, I DON'T have a life, but I'm still not on this board every minute of it. Sometimes I look at porn.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by botn

this Bruce did not wish me a Merry Christmas but told me to go play in the fires.

Just.... read.... thread.....

....can't..... stop..... laughing... especially at this line.....

[uffda51]

(in the spirit of Spartacus) I am Archive!

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

Sometimes I look at porn.

And this... is one of his finer qualities.

[Batter67up]

I filed a complaint on his current auction with ebay. Hopefully this guy gets shut down. People like this give our hobby a really bad name.

[Bigb13]

Ebay and PayPal will do nothing about this shit. Rob

[Batter67up]

These type of things are the very reason people often get out of our hobby. The common theme: fake, counterfit, switched out cards. or unqualified graders or companies grading cards. Why should anyone take the risk of spending $100, $1000, or $10,000 on a card that is not real. Talk is cheap until you get burned yourself. I guess if you are filthy rich its not that big of a deal. I believe the majority of us don't fall into this group. Companies like PSA and SGA should prosecute these people to help ensure the intergrity of their industry. When we purchase over the internet it is often like flipping a coin on the validty of ther card. This was previously the case with raw cards and now this is the case with graded cards.

[teetwoohsix]

There are two MAJOR problems with this-
The seller selling the fake item knowing its a fake,and,GAI excusing themselves from any responsibility to buy these fakes back and get them out of the market.
I have heard of situations where PSA & SGC have made an error grading a fake,and did the right thing by purchasing the item back and removing it from circulation.
Ebay is also at fault for letting this seller sell the fakes.
Bad news all the way around.

[Al C.risafulli]

I'm not surprised that eBay and Paypal won't do anything about it, since the card the seller auctioned was properly described and the buyer received it and left positive feedback.

As far as PSA or SGC prosecuting, what's to prosecute? This is not the responsibility of the two grading companies that would never have graded these cards. It's the responsibility of collectors to be educated about the cards that they're buying - and it's also the responsibility of collectors to refuse to recognize the legitimacy of the grading company that slabbed this crap.

This is the "best grader in the hobby," by the way.

And if it sounds like I'm really pissed off about this, it's because I am - I collect '38 Goudey. It's my favorite set. I've devoted a good portion of my hobby time over the last 5 years learning about these cards, and trying to solve some of the set's mysteries. And there ARE mysteries, and one of them has to do specifically with "missing" cards that should have been produced - so the idea of "proof" cards is actually plausible. So when this kind of crap comes out, you bet it makes me crazy.

-Al

[teetwoohsix]

The guy selling them must be a real piece of work.You said he's been told numerous times they are fake,and any decent seller would quit selling them and thank you for pointing it out to him.
And you are right Al-he keeps on popping up with a new one,and keeps on with the "I've only seen two others....I've only seen three others...(something to that effect)"..........
So how many could he have?
What is Ebay doing about it?

[steve B]

Ok, so this is totally wrong, but I've seen it done by some of the old bicycle crowd when there's a scam afoot (Usually involving "selling" a bike that had been sold legitimately before - the scammer steals the picture and sells through a hijacked account)

What they've done is to have a second throwaway Ebay account, and two of the people bid the item up to some silly price like 2 million or so. Then they stall long enough for the bill to reach the seller for the fees. Tougher now that paypal is required, but still possible. Before the paypal only rule they'd claim they mailed payment, worked great since the scammers wanted it mailed to a different address.

And yes, it's very wrong and I wouldn't reccomend it etc......

Steve

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Batter67up

These type of things are the very reason people often get out of our hobby. The common theme: fake, counterfit, switched out cards. or unqualified graders or companies grading cards. Why should anyone take the risk of spending $100, $1000, or $10,000 on a card that is not real. Talk is cheap until you get burned yourself. I guess if you are filthy rich its not that big of a deal. I believe the majority of us don't fall into this group. Companies like PSA and SGA should prosecute these people to help ensure the intergrity of their industry. When we purchase over the internet it is often like flipping a coin on the validty of ther card. This was previously the case with raw cards and now this is the case with graded cards.

This particular mess isn't on PSA. It's not on SCG. Not Ebay. Not Paypal.


It falls on a company that no longer exists (GAI), the seller, and uneducated buyers. Allocate the blame in whatever proportion you'd like.

It won't stop until someone buys some of his cards and LEAVES NEGATIVE FEEDBACK! If you buy his cards, find out you've been scammed, and then leave positive feedback, you've become part of the problem.

A simple line stating "1938 Goudey cards are fake and the seller knows it!" would suffice.





Edited to add: By the way, anyone reading this thread who doesn't go all the way back, but at least to post #50, is doing themselves a disservice! BEST. THREAD. EVER.

[calvindog]

Yes, and I left two negative feedbacks for a fraudster who had an underbidder who just bids on his items and also has a fake name (yes, I checked) drive up my final price twice -- and the negative feedbacks were removed by ebay in 3 days without even telling me.

Look, as I've said repeatedly, this hobby is filled with fraud and it is presumed and shrugged off as a 'cost of doing business.' Auction companies engage in multi-million dollar obvious fraud and a majority of people on the board still defend them. Dealers at shows lie to customers' faces and we're told that we should just laugh about it and walk away.

By the way, I have now been banned by Mastro/Legendary which makes them the second set of great guys who have banned me in the past six months. So, at least I'm annoying the right people.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Dealers at shows lie to customers' faces and we're told that we should just laugh about it and walk away.

Wasn't me that told you that! I do see a difference between a dealer who drastically overprices his cards and an auction house that shills. The former is just stupidity. The latter is fraud.

The part where he told you it was "Cobb's Rookie"? That moved him past stupidity and into fraud.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by calvindog

By the way, I have now been banned by Mastro/Legendary...

Nice that they waited until after you bought your D322 Wagner from them to do that.

[calvindog]

And tens of thousands of dollars of other cards as well. My advice to would-be consignors of valuable Cobb and Chase items in the future: you might want to try REA if you want a certain guy from NYC with apparently bigger pockets than brains to drive up the price on your cards because he won't be bidding in Mastro/Legendary/Goodwin.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And tens of thousands of dollars of other cards as well. My advice to would-be consignors of valuable Cobb and Chase items in the future: you might want to try REA if you want a certain guy from NYC with apparently bigger pockets than brains to drive up the price on your cards because he won't be bidding in Mastro/Legendary/Goodwin.

Despite being blocked from bidding in their auctions, you might want to ask to see what cards they have behind their tables.

[BleedinBlue]

http://weissauctions.auctionflex.com...enum=1&lang=En

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

By the way, anyone reading this thread who doesn't go all the way back, but at least to post #50, is doing themselves a disservice! BEST. THREAD. EVER.

I agree. This thread was positively priceless. Thanks to those who revived the discussion about it.

Edited to add: The Andrew thread is definitely a close second, though, in my opinion

Sorry I didn't find Net54 sooner. You guys (and gals) are great.

Peace to all. Hope I didn't stir things up too much by bumping this thread back to the top.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Rich Klein]

So I finally read this thread and was laughing so darned hard that my manager had to come over and ask why

She agreed that suing yourself is a classic. And when I added about Bruce being no longer with us, it became even better

Rich

[Griffins]

just as funny today as it was at the time. Rest in peace Bruce, and thanks for the laughs- intentional or not.

[HRBAKER]

THE definitive all-time classic N54 thread.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Not just the honors, but from The Wharton School, in case you didn't know.

I just want to point out that one Donald J Trump also proudly claims he was a star student at the Wharton school.

[Jeff1970Red]

Bump