"True" T206 rookies backs?

[Knightlax5]

I'm working on a HOF rookie collection. For those HOFer's with their rookies in t206, do you guys consider any one of the backs more of "a true rookie" than other backs? I know some of the backs were released earlier than others. I know its a crazy level of detail but its been something I've been considering as i build my collection. Thanks in advance!

[Rhotchkiss]

Simplifying things: Series 150 was 1909, series 350 was 1910, and series 460 was 1911. Any cards with a series 150 back, or released along with series 150 - old mill, EPDG, brown Hindu- would be earliest t206 issue for a player. Thus, if you want the earlier t206 of a player, then the back does matter bc it indicates year of issue.

[h2oya311]

There’s only really one “rookie” in the t206 set. Marquard (hands at side) with a 150 back (or other backs that coincide with that 1909 date). Some might argue Speaker’s rookie is the t206, but there are some 1909 issues that pre-date the Speaker, which doesn’t come in a 150 back. I believe Speaker only comes in the 350 or 350-460, issued in 1910 and 1911 respectively.

Just my opinion and doing this from the top of my head, so please forgive any errors I may have made.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

There’s only really one “rookie” in the t206 set. Marquard (hands at side) with a 150 back (or other backs that coincide with that 1909 date). Some might argue Speaker’s rookie is the t206, but there are some 1909 issues that pre-date the Speaker, which doesn’t come in a 150 back. I believe Speaker only comes in the 350 or 350-460, issued in 1910 and 1911 respectively.

Just my opinion and doing this from the top of my head, so please forgive any errors I may have made.

Here's a question...since Zach Wheat was printed in the 350-460 Series group in 1911, what is his earliest card/card-like thing that has a (at least somewhat) confirmed printing date, and not just a range of years?

Brian

[bcbgcbrcb]

1909 Boston Herald Speaker would be his earliest individual appearance that avoids the range of years issue. Obviously, not a card but a catalogued set in the Standard Catalogue of Vintage BB Cards.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Here's a question...since Zach Wheat was printed in the 350-460 Series group in 1911, what is his earliest card/card-like thing that has a (at least somewhat) confirmed printing date, and not just a range of years?

Brian

Is it known if his T215 Red Cross is from 1910 or 1911?
Same question for his PX7 Domino Disk (1910-12)

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

There’s only really one “rookie” in the t206 set.

Really? That seems remarkable for a set with a couple hundred players in it. Or are you talking HOF RCs only?

I know a bunch are minor leaguers, and ML cards don't normally count for RCs, but say today if they were part of the Topps flagship (Base) set, they would maybe count.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Here's a question...since Zach Wheat was printed in the 350-460 Series group in 1911, what is his earliest card/card-like thing that has a (at least somewhat) confirmed printing date, and not just a range of years?

Brian

I knew I should have consulted my own website before responding about HOF "rookies" in the T206 set. FWIW, it isn't yet complete, but it's my mission to finally complete it by this year. For those so inclined to check it out:

https://imageevent.com/derekgranger/hofearliest

T206 HOF rookies, depending on one's definition, could include the following:

Home Run Baker - 1910 (Series of 350)
Eddie Collins - 1909 (Series of 150)
Rube Marquard - Hands at Thighs - 1909 (Series of 150)
Tris Speaker - Spring of 1910 (Series of 350)
Zach Wheat - 1910 (Series of 350)

My checklist of earliest known cards/photos of Wheat is the following:

1900s Kelso Studio Cabinet Card (with brothers)
c1905-06 Cabinet (Union City uniform) (2 variations)
1906 Prairie Roses Team Cabinet
1909-12 PX7 Sweet Caporal Domino Discs
1910 T206 (series of 350)
1910 T213 Coupon Cigarettes (Brown Caption)
1910-12 T215 Red Cross Tobacco (Brown Caption)
1910-12 Sweet Caporal Pins (Large Letters)
1910-12 Sweet Caporal Pins (Small Letters)
1910 Brooklyn Superbas Team Postcard (Spring Training Hot Springs)
c1910 RPPC

[brianp-beme]

Nice list of collectible Wheat items Derek. A few remarks...

The T206 Wheat card was part of what has been identified as the 460 Only Series print group, which includes cards with backs that have "350-460 Subjects", but no "350 Subjects" backs. The printing timeline for this group of 48 cards is supposedly 1911.

Being that this is the case, I have my doubts that the Wheat design was first utilized in the 1910 T213-1 Coupon or the 1910-12 T215 Red Cross (brown caption) sets. Logically thinking, the ATC commissioned the designs for its T206 issue, and then utilized these designs for other sets. The inclusion in the Red Cross (brown caption) set makes sense, because of the identified issue dates (1910-1912) allow for it to be a card that was printed possibly in either 1911 or 1912.

However the inclusion of Wheat in T213-1 Coupon set calls into question its strictly 1910 dating, since his card's design was first introduced in the "460 Only" T206 print group in 1911.

My thought is that the T213-1 Coupon set was either printed over a span of two years (1910 and 1911), or perhaps just 1911.

Maybe some research about the design composition of the T213-1 set (what print groups the designs come from) has been conducted in the past, but I still just might look into it to see if the T213-1 set was indeed a multi-year production)

EDIT: Just checked the T213-1 Coupon checklist, and Wheat is not included in this set. His T213-1 Coupon entry in the earliest HOF item list should be stricken, and perhaps threshed as well, so as to separate the Wheat from the chaff. There goes my fun research project, as I will assume that earlier hobbyist correctly pegged the T213-1 Coupon set as being issued in 1910.


Brian

[Kidnapped18]

Here's my list so any of these should work

Eddie Collins – 6
MLB Debut September 17, 1906
EPDG
Hindu Brown
Piedmont 350
Sovereign 350
Sweet Caporal 350/25
Sweet Caporal 350/30


Tris Speaker – 4
MLB Debut September 14, 1907
Piedmont 350
Sovereign 350
Sweet Caporal 350/25
Sweet Caporal 350/30


Home Run Baker – 6
MLB Debut September 21, 1908
EPDG
Hindu Brown
Piedmont 350
Sovereign 350
Sweet Caporal 350/25
Sweet Caporal 350/30


Rube Marquard Hands at Thighs – 6
MLB Debut September 25, 1908
Hindu Brown
Piedmont 150
Sovereign 150
Sweet Caporal 150/25
Sweet Caporal 150/30
Sweet Caporal 150/649OP


Zach Wheat – 11
MLB Debut September 11, 1909
American Beauty 460
Cycle 460
EPDG
Hindu Red
Old Mill
Piedmont 350-460
Polar Bear
Sweet Caporal 350-460/30
Sweet Caporal 350-460/42
Sweet Caporal 350-460/42OP
Tolstoi

[Knightlax5]

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

Here's my list so any of these should work

Eddie Collins – 6
MLB Debut September 17, 1906
EPDG
Hindu Brown
Piedmont 350
Sovereign 350
Sweet Caporal 350/25
Sweet Caporal 350/30


Tris Speaker – 4
MLB Debut September 14, 1907
Piedmont 350
Sovereign 350
Sweet Caporal 350/25
Sweet Caporal 350/30


Home Run Baker – 6
MLB Debut September 21, 1908
EPDG
Hindu Brown
Piedmont 350
Sovereign 350
Sweet Caporal 350/25
Sweet Caporal 350/30


Rube Marquard Hands at Thighs – 6
MLB Debut September 25, 1908
Hindu Brown
Piedmont 150
Sovereign 150
Sweet Caporal 150/25
Sweet Caporal 150/30
Sweet Caporal 15/649OP


Zach Wheat – 11
MLB Debut September 11, 1909
American Beauty 460
Cycle 460
EPDG
Hindu Red
Old Mill
Piedmont 350-460
Polar Bear
Sweet Caporal 350-460/30
Sweet Caporal 350-460/42
Sweet Caporal 350-460/42OP
Tolstoi

Wow appreciate the insights from the responses! Does anyone know if there any backs which have all HOF'ers? I would assume a sweet cap or piedmont 350 would haver all of the HOF'ers?

[bcbgcbrcb]

Just did some checking, no Zach Wheat individual catalogued item can be definitively dated to earlier than 1911.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Frank Baker 1909 E91-B American Caramel

[Kidnapped18]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Frank Baker 1909 E91-B American Caramel

Both Baker and Collins have E91-B American Caramels
And both have Horner Cabinets
Collins has a Sporting Life as well

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by Knightlax5

I'm working on a HOF rookie collection. For those HOFer's with their rookies in t206, do you guys consider any one of the backs more of "a true rookie" than other backs? I know some of the backs were released earlier than others. I know its a crazy level of detail but its been something I've been considering as i build my collection. Thanks in advance!

The July, 3 1909 advertisement in Sporting Life establishes that Piedmont 150, Sovereign 150 and Sweet Caporal 150 were the first T206 backs.

https://t206resource.com/Sporting%20Life%20Ads.html

My suspicion is that Sweet Cap 150 Factory 25 was before Factory 30 or Factory 649. (All Piedmont and Sovereign 150s are Factory 25.) This suspicion is based on image clarity and the fact that most Wagners are Sweet Cap 150/25.

Edited to add: So if you are looking for a “true” Marquard rookie go with Hands at Side Piedmont 150, Sovereign 150 or Sweet Cap 150/25.

[Kidnapped18]

Great stuff!! Yes Piedmont Sovereign and Sweet Caporal were all national issues. Hindu was more of a regional issue.

The Hindu ads came shortly after (about a month) the others started and ran during the same timeframe.

Also in the ads some of the names are at the top!

[Knightlax5]

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

Here's my list so any of these should work

Eddie Collins – 6
MLB Debut September 17, 1906
EPDG
Hindu Brown
Piedmont 350
Sovereign 350
Sweet Caporal 350/25
Sweet Caporal 350/30


Tris Speaker – 4
MLB Debut September 14, 1907
Piedmont 350
Sovereign 350
Sweet Caporal 350/25
Sweet Caporal 350/30


Home Run Baker – 6
MLB Debut September 21, 1908
EPDG
Hindu Brown
Piedmont 350
Sovereign 350
Sweet Caporal 350/25
Sweet Caporal 350/30


Rube Marquard Hands at Thighs – 6
MLB Debut September 25, 1908
Hindu Brown
Piedmont 150
Sovereign 150
Sweet Caporal 150/25
Sweet Caporal 150/30
Sweet Caporal 150/649OP


Zach Wheat – 11
MLB Debut September 11, 1909
American Beauty 460
Cycle 460
EPDG
Hindu Red
Old Mill
Piedmont 350-460
Polar Bear
Sweet Caporal 350-460/30
Sweet Caporal 350-460/42
Sweet Caporal 350-460/42OP
Tolstoi

Originally Posted by sreader3

The July, 3 1909 advertisement in Sporting Life establishes that Piedmont 150, Sovereign 150 and Sweet Caporal 150 were the first T206 backs.

https://t206resource.com/Sporting%20Life%20Ads.html

My suspicion is that Sweet Cap 150 Factory 25 was before Factory 30 or Factory 649. (All Piedmont and Sovereign 150s are Factory 25.) This suspicion is based on image clarity and the fact that most Wagners are Sweet Cap 150/25.

Edited to add: So if you are looking for a “true” Marquard rookie go with Hands at Side Piedmont 150, Sovereign 150 or Sweet Cap 150/25.

Appreciate the detail! Sounds like I'm likely going to try to get them all in piedmont 150 and whatever isn't in piedmont 150 I'll settle for piedmont 350

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Knightlax5

Appreciate the detail! Sounds like I'm likely going to try to get them all in piedmont 150 and whatever isn't in piedmont 150 I'll settle for piedmont 350

-
Just make sure you buy big border cards, imho.
-

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

Great stuff!! Yes Piedmont Sovereign and Sweet Caporal were all national issues. Hindu was more of a regional issue.

The Hindu ads came shortly after (about a month) the others started and ran during the same timeframe.

Also in the ads some of the names are at the top!

The Old Mills started around the same time as the Hindu's

July 30 1909 clipping
Old Mill new BrandFri__Jul_30__1909_.jpg

I can't load the page big enough to read but here's the July 30 1909 paper page that the clipping came from

Old Mill T206's The_Evening_Chronicle_1909_07_30_Page_7 - Copy.jpg

[Kidnapped18]

Looking at the ads these appear to be the players pictured
Interesting that all the SLers pictured are from the Southern Association

Sporting Life Ad #1
Frank Bowerman Boston Doves
Frank Chance Chicago Cubs
Wild Bill Donovan Detroit Tigers
Red Dooin Philadelphia Phillies
Kid Elberfeld New York Highlanders
Johnny Evers Chicago Cubs
Tommy Leach Pittsburg Pirates
Hans Lobert Cincinnati Reds
Simon Nicholls Philadelphia Athletics
Rube Waddell St. Louis Browns

Sporting Life Ad #2
Ginger Beaumont Boston Doves
Kitty Bransfield Philadelphia Phillies
Jim Delehanty Washington Senators
Willie Keeler New York Highlanders
Charley O’Leary Detroit Tigers
Orval Overall Chicago Cubs
Jim Pastorius Brooklyn Superbas
Harry Steinfeldt Chicago Cubs
Honus Wagner Pittsburg Pirates
Hooks Wiltse New York Giants

Hindu Southern League Ad
Harry Bay Nashville
Bill Bernhard Nashville
Ted Breitenstein x 2 New Orleans
Scoops Carey Memphis
Bill Cranston Memphis
Roy Ellam Nashville
Charlie Fritz New Orleans
Ed Greminger Montgomery
Gordon Hickman x 2 Mobile
Dutch Jordan Atlanta
Carlton Molesworth Birmingham
Arch Persons Montgomery
Ed Reagan New Orleans
Sid Smith Atlanta
Woodie Thornton Mobile

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Pat R

The Old Mills started around the same time as the Hindu's

July 30 1909 clipping
Attachment 656205

It appears the exact release date of Old Mill T206 cards is August 1, 1909; at least, this would be the case for Print Group 1 subjects.

I imagine this was previously known; however, it's new info to me. Do we have specific release dates for any other cards?