Ebay Seller: PSA

[bcbgcbrcb]

I wasn’t aware before this weekend but apparently PSA is a seller on eBay. Maybe others already know this and I apologize if this subject is repetitive. Within their auction listing descriptions, they include legal verbiage releasing them from any and all liability for any potential returns due to a third-party authentication company not agreeing with the assigned grade/description/item condition. Beside the obvious conflict of interest selling their own graded cards on consignment, what gives them the right, and not anyone else, to not have to live up to the seller standards as mandated by eBay? I can copy all of the same verbiage and add it to my listings too, do you think eBay will stand behind me when a buyer requests a return because an item did not match the photos/description? I think not and herein lies the problem. Thoughts from everyone, do we all think that eBay will back PSA should this same scenario arise?

[philliesfan]

I have no clue about this, but could it be because the items are in their vault? And they need to be listed that way because of it?
Bob

[Peter_Spaeth]

There's no right of return now, if a graded card passes authentication. And that review is limited to whether the slab matches the auction description.

Where's the conflict, they're just offering to list cards for people as part of their vault service.

[Fred]

I understand what Phil is alluding to. If PSA sells non vault items that belong to PSA, then that's giving PSA the right to "print cash". If it's providing the ability to sell vault items owned by others, that takes the look of impropriety away.

Nothing surprises me any more for this sporting card business (no, it's not much of a hobby these days).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fred

I understand what Phil is alluding to. If PSA sells non vault items that belong to PSA, then that's giving PSA the right to "print cash". If it's providing the ability to sell vault items owned by others, that takes the look of impropriety away.

Nothing surprises me any more for this sporting card business (no, it's not much of a hobby these days).

What's the reason to believe they own the cards? There's an obvious explanation that they don't, this is a service they offer. I mean we could do what if's all day. What if the prior owners of SGC were grading their own cards? Oh, wait....

[tjisonline]

PSA only sells vaulted BGS / BVG, SGC, & PSA graded items on eBay. Not sure if anyone is alluding to PSA selling unvaulted items pretending to be vaulted?
Maybe I’m not following but currently don’t see a problem

Originally Posted by Fred

I understand what Phil is alluding to. If PSA sells non vault items that belong to PSA, then that's giving PSA the right to "print cash". If it's providing the ability to sell vault items owned by others, that takes the look of impropriety away.

Nothing surprises me any more for this sporting card business (no, it's not much of a hobby these days).

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What's the reason to believe they own the cards? There's an obvious explanation that they don't, this is a service they offer. I mean we could do what if's all day. What if the prior owners of SGC were grading their own cards? Oh, wait....

I didn't indicate that PSA was selling their own cards. However, if you believe that would never occur, then there's a saying I've heard, something about don't tell me it's raining if you're pissing on my leg.

Honestly, I wouldn't put it past PSA to start selling cards they own, but that's not what I said. Is it? My comment was if PSA sells non vault items that belong to them, then that's giving PSA the right to "print cash". Does that sound like "PSA shouldn't be selling their own cards"?

[Neal]

Originally Posted by Fred

I didn't indicate that PSA was selling their own cards. However, if you believe that would never occur, then there's a saying I've heard, something about don't tell me it's raining if you're pissing on my leg.



Honestly, I wouldn't put it past PSA to start selling cards they own, but that's not what I said. Is it? My comment was if PSA sells non vault items that belong to them, then that's giving PSA the right to "print cash". Does that sound like "PSA shouldn't be selling their own cards"?

It kinda does

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Neal

It kinda does

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

+1

[perezfan]

That's an obvious conflict of interest.

[LEHR]

The PSA eBay account is to sell submitted cards coming straight from grading, as well as Vaulted items. When you submit cards to PSA you now have the option to select weather each individual card is returned to you after grading, or sold for you on eBay.

See the screenshot below from a recent PSA submission that was just retuned a week ago.

[evergreen1988]

They are also ok with selling their own slabs with issues, so that says something.

Notice anything off about the below Drum back? I raised it to them, but they said they couldn't end it early because it already had bids.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T20...vip=true&rt=nc

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Neal

It kinda does

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

It kinda doesn't

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Fred

It kinda doesn't

Cool. Obviously as the author, you're familiar with what you meant when you wrote it. So I'll defer to you.

But setting that aside, I think we can all agree that if PSA is selling cards on eBay that are owned by PSA, then there would seem to be a lot of conflicts of interest there.

A lot of what I've read and seen suggests that the sellers are in fact not PSA. But as others noted, there's not a lot of visibility into the details here. So for all we know, PSA could sneak items in that are owned by PSA itself, and we wouldn't know the difference. And that would be a frightening turn of events.

Not that the TPG anti-acolyte crowd needs additional evidence of TPG shenanigans to add to the existing list. But I'm sure they'll be happy to add it to the list.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Cool. Obviously as the author, you're familiar with what you meant when you wrote it. So I'll defer to you.

But setting that aside, I think we can all agree that if PSA is selling cards on eBay that are owned by PSA, then there would seem to be a lot of conflicts of interest there.

A lot of what I've read and seen suggests that the sellers are in fact not PSA. But as others noted, there's not a lot of visibility into the details here. So for all we know, PSA could sneak items in that are owned by PSA itself, and we wouldn't know the difference. And that would be a frightening turn of events.

Not that the TPG anti-acolyte crowd needs additional evidence of TPG shenanigans to add to the existing list. But I'm sure they'll be happy to add it to the list.

I love how people drum up wildly speculative and theoretical conflicts and just ignore actual ones like TPG owners grading their own cards. SMH.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Fred

I didn't indicate that PSA was selling their own cards. However, if you believe that would never occur, then there's a saying I've heard, something about don't tell me it's raining if you're pissing on my leg.



Honestly, I wouldn't put it past PSA to start selling cards they own, but that's not what I said. Is it? My comment was if PSA sells non vault items that belong to them, then that's giving PSA the right to "print cash". Does that sound like "PSA shouldn't be selling their own cards"?

Yes.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I love how people drum up wildly speculative and theoretical conflicts and just ignore actual ones like TPG owners grading their own cards. SMH.

It's the difference between being a reporter or a super-sleuth analyst. We only have super-sleuths on this board.

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[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I love how people drum up wildly speculative and theoretical conflicts and just ignore actual ones like TPG owners grading their own cards. SMH.

Haven't they all pretty much done that at one time or another?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Haven't they all pretty much done that at one time or another?

David Hall certainly submitted his cards. I have no idea about Nat. SGC flat out told us that's what they were doing.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I love how people drum up wildly speculative and theoretical conflicts and just ignore actual ones like TPG owners grading their own cards. SMH.

Reality and facts are boring and overrated. Let's live in a world of make believe and speculation that have zero evidence of support. Much more fun! How else are we supposed to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

[bmattioli]

I only collect raw so I'm good..

[Fred]

To all that spin things the way you feel. It was never stated in my post that PSA is selling their own cards, but it is stated that it would be wrong if they did.

Bottom line, this hobby has enough crap going on so if PSA did sell their own cards and assigned high "subjective" numbers to their own cards they are selling, it wouldn't surprise me. I didn't say PSA does do that. Perhaps it will be spun that's what was said (or misinterpreted).

Perhaps someone should start a poll and see how this board feels about PSA selling "their own" graded cards that are not owned by people that have their cards in the PSA vault.

Here's another wild possibility: PSA got into the vault business just to cover up a little impropriety by selling their own cards. I'm not saying they are, but what if?

Just curious, how many people on this board have registry sets and would hate to see this whole house of cards collapse and drop valuations by a very high percentage? I wouldn't care, in fact I really hope it happens. I bet there are quite a few people on this board that would love to see this go back to being a bunch of people collecting because they love the stuff, not for it's value, but because what it represents to them as a baseball fan.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Nobody is misinterpreting, but by your own admission you are talking about this scenario as though it were plausible to happen in the future. On what basis is it remotely plausible? And if it isn't what's the point of it? We could come up with 1000 highly improbable things to talk about but nobody would want to.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by bmattioli

I only collect raw so I'm good..

+1

These OCD discussions perspiring over graded cards leave me wondering...why? Tell me again how much fun it is to electron microscope your graded cards, only to have a stroke over PSA or whoever giving you a subjective 2 when you think it ought to be a 7, or whatever else PSA is doing to cause high anxiety. Is that a hobby? No way. But that's what a big part of this forum seems to be all about...no hobby, strictly investment brokering.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nobody is misinterpreting, but by your own admission you are talking about this scenario as though it were plausible to happen in the future. On what basis is it remotely plausible? And if it isn't what's the point of it? We could come up with 1000 highly improbable things to talk about but nobody would want to.

Yes, I'm guessing it's plausible. Does every post necessitate a complete explanation to you? I'm guessing this hit a sensitive nerve for you. Uh, really, a 1,000 highly improbable things to talk about? So why don't you tell us why it's not remotely plausible that PSA wouldn't sell their own cards.

You brought that up. All I did was respond to the original post and somehow it got twisted to me saying I was accusing PSA of selling their own cards (which if you read the unedited post, it does not state PSA is selling their own cards).

In subsequent posts it was stated that it wouldn't surprise me if PSA would do that. Big difference than saying they do.

It's a thought/opinion which if you don't agree with, then you just don't agree with it. Please re-read my original post and tell me where it said PSA was selling their own cards. I'm sure others can go back and read it. Better yet, maybe I'll start a poll and ask people if the original post says that PSA sells their own cards (it doesn't).

[Fred]

Originally Posted by bmattioli

I only collect raw so I'm good..

So true. +1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fred

Yes, I'm guessing it's plausible. Does every post necessitate a complete explanation to you? I'm guessing this hit a sensitive nerve for you. Uh, really, a 1,000 highly improbable things to talk about? So why don't you tell us why it's not remotely plausible that PSA wouldn't sell their own cards.

You brought that up. All I did was respond to the original post and somehow it got twisted to me saying I was accusing PSA of selling their own cards (which if you read the unedited post, it does not state PSA is selling their own cards).

In subsequent posts it was stated that it wouldn't surprise me if PSA would do that. Big difference than saying they do.

It's a thought/opinion which if you don't agree with, then you just don't agree with it. Please re-read my original post and tell me where it said PSA was selling their own cards. I'm sure others can go back and read it. Better yet, maybe I'll start a poll and ask people if the original post says that PSA sells their own cards (it doesn't).

None of that answers the question. I never said you said PSA was selling their own cards. Straw man. Rather, I said that by your own admission, you are talking about it as though it were a plausible scenario. That is, it could happen. And my question to you was, and is, why do you think it's plausible? "I'm guessing it's plausible" is not much of an answer. And I have no clue about the "sensitive nerve" part but whatever. PS Ironic that for all your concern people misread your post, you misread mine lol.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

None of that answers the question. I never said you said PSA was selling their own cards. Straw man. Rather, I said that by your own admission, you are talking about it as though it were a plausible scenario. That is, it could happen. And my question to you was, and is, why do you think it's plausible? "I'm guessing it's plausible" is not much of an answer. And I have no clue about the "sensitive nerve" part but whatever. PS Ironic that for all your concern people misread your post, you misread mine lol.

The reason I think it's plausible is because of greed. Simple one word answer.

There have been so many issues that people have found out about TPG's (let's just call it as it is - PSA because they are without a doubt the king of grading). PSA does not appear to be doing anything about the issues, but one thing is for certain, they appear to be about fully capitalizing their business (which is what businesses are supposed to do) and if it gets to the point where profitability begins to wane, then it wouldn't surprise me to see some bonehead exec putting two and two together and coming up with a million (greed).

The truly sad part is that people just don't seem to care as long as they're making money or the appearance of making money (by holding cardboard for it's current valuation).

A point to consider (which has been widely discussed in other threads, no new revelation here) - why are they charging so much to grade high end cards? They can sit back on their "subjectivity". There's no guarantee with the service they provide, so why stick it to the collecting public and charge so much for their opinion? Why, because they can because there are a lot of people whose main concern is the Benjamins and making more off this thing that used to be a fun hobby. PSA will figure out more ways to make money off the collecting public because that's what they do.

Do you feel it's not plausible? If so, I bet there are a few readers that would love to read your thoughts on why not.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Fred

I understand what Phil is alluding to. If PSA sells non vault items that belong to PSA, then that's giving PSA the right to "print cash". If it's providing the ability to sell vault items owned by others, that takes the look of impropriety away.

Nothing surprises me any more for this sporting card business (no, it's not much of a hobby these days).

I'm under the impression PSA can already "print cash" by simply selling their opinion.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Fred

Just curious, how many people on this board have registry sets and would hate to see this whole house of cards collapse and drop valuations by a very high percentage? I wouldn't care, in fact I really hope it happens. I bet there are quite a few people on this board that would love to see this go back to being a bunch of people collecting because they love the stuff, not for it's value, but because what it represents to them as a baseball fan.

I’m definitely among the hard core set registry acolytes. A complete collapse in graded pieces would not be fun for my net worth, or for my relationship with my wife.

At the same time, I have suggested that I wouldn’t mind some decline in prices, so that I can buy more nice stuff to expand my collection without having to spend 6 or 7 figures to make it happen.

In spite of all that, I would definitely still suggest that I love my collection, first and foremost for what it means to me. Some will struggle to believe it, simply because of allegations made around here suggesting that anyone who collects graded or is on the registry must be a TPG goon who doesn’t care about the actual cards and only cares about the size of their hands relative to other collectors. But honestly, in my case, the value is an afterthought that happens to come along for the ride. And sadly one that I can’t ignore because it’s a big number.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fred

The reason I think it's plausible is because of greed. Simple one word answer.

There have been so many issues that people have found out about TPG's (let's just call it as it is - PSA because they are without a doubt the king of grading). PSA does not appear to be doing anything about the issues, but one thing is for certain, they appear to be about fully capitalizing their business (which is what businesses are supposed to do) and if it gets to the point where profitability begins to wane, then it wouldn't surprise me to see some bonehead exec putting two and two together and coming up with a million (greed).

The truly sad part is that people just don't seem to care as long as they're making money or the appearance of making money (by holding cardboard for it's current valuation).

A point to consider (which has been widely discussed in other threads, no new revelation here) - why are they charging so much to grade high end cards? They can sit back on their "subjectivity". There's no guarantee with the service they provide, so why stick it to the collecting public and charge so much for their opinion? Why, because they can because there are a lot of people whose main concern is the Benjamins and making more off this thing that used to be a fun hobby. PSA will figure out more ways to make money off the collecting public because that's what they do.

Do you feel it's not plausible? If so, I bet there are a few readers that would love to read your thoughts on why not.

They have completely cornered and dominate the third party grading market which is absolutely thriving. They authenticate all sorts of stuff like type 1 photos, balls, autographs, who knows what else. PCGS is a dominant player in coins. They surely have other sources of revenue as well such as their authentication deals with ebay. PSA as an entity does not "own" cards and I can't imagine that fits in the business plan. And even if it did, they could easily sell through auction houses, they don't need to sell through an ebay account. Why would they, to shill cards up a few bucks? They can do that anyhow, believe me. If you are saying Nat Turner would do it to sell his own cards, that makes no sense to me either.

Even if they were ruthlessly greedy, that doesn't mean they want to expand to every corner and level of the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I’m definitely among the hard core set registry acolytes. A complete collapse in graded pieces would not be fun for my net worth, or for my relationship with my wife.

At the same time, I have suggested that I wouldn’t mind some decline in prices, so that I can buy more nice stuff to expand my collection without having to spend 6 or 7 figures to make it happen.

In spite of all that, I would definitely still suggest that I love my collection, first and foremost for what it means to me. Some will struggle to believe it, simply because of allegations made around here suggesting that anyone who collects graded or is on the registry must be a TPG goon who doesn’t care about the actual cards and only cares about the size of their hands relative to other collectors. But honestly, in my case, the value is an afterthought that happens to come along for the ride. And sadly one that I can’t ignore because it’s a big number.

Lots of different ways to collect baseball cards. It would seem there is room for all types and not sure I quite understand the resentment and/or superiority one sometimes sees from both sides toward the other. Honestly, most people are probably somewhere in the middle.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They have completely cornered and dominate the third party grading market which is absolutely thriving. They authenticate all sorts of stuff like type 1 photos, balls, autographs, who knows what else. PCGS is a dominant player in coins. They surely have other sources of revenue as well such as their authentication deals with ebay. PSA as an entity does not "own" cards and I can't imagine that fits in the business plan. And even if it did, they could easily sell through auction houses, they don't need to sell through an ebay account. Why would they, to shill cards up a few bucks? They can do that anyhow, believe me. If you are saying Nat Turner would do it to sell his own cards, that makes no sense to me either.

Even if they were ruthlessly greedy, that doesn't mean they want to expand to every corner and level of the hobby.

Well, it'd be difficult to debate your points. But... it wouldn't be a few bucks.
This can easily can get 3 or 4 extra zeros deep. Even for cards that only get pushed a couple extra zeros, that still adds up after a while and those cards are easily absorbed into circulation. A single grade point could push a card to a point that the ROI is insane.

I don't want to start a conspiracy theory, but should we believe, or be naive enough to not believe there's no impropriety going on behind PSA management's back with the number of submissions being handled on a yearly basis? All it takes is a few $20/hour submission and grading monkeys to figure things out and spin a few hundred grand profit under everyone's noses every year. Ok, that would not be a PSA thing because it wouldn't be authorized. But again, at some point after all the good ideas for making more money don't pan out, there's always going to be pushing a few 10s or low pop 9s out there and selling it through one of the many available networks (AHs, fleabay, shows).

I guess I don't have as much faith as you have when it comes to people doing the right thing all the time. Perhaps that has to do with the way the business has been run from day one - PSA8 Wags. Yes, new blood is in, but they're looking to make a profit.

Your points are good and was worth the read. Thank you for that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fred

Well, it'd be difficult to debate your points. But... it wouldn't be a few bucks.
This can easily can get 3 or 4 extra zeros deep. Even for cards that only get pushed a couple extra zeros, that still adds up after a while and those cards are easily absorbed into circulation. A single grade point could push a card to a point that the ROI is insane.

I don't want to start a conspiracy theory, but should we believe, or be naive enough to not believe there's no impropriety going on behind PSA management's back with the number of submissions being handled on a yearly basis? All it takes is a few $20/hour submission and grading monkeys to figure things out and spin a few hundred grand profit under everyone's noses every year. Ok, that would not be a PSA thing because it wouldn't be authorized. But again, at some point after all the good ideas for making more money don't pan out, there's always going to be pushing a few 10s or low pop 9s out there and selling it through one of the many available networks (AHs, fleabay, shows).

I guess I don't have as much faith as you have when it comes to people doing the right thing all the time. Perhaps that has to do with the way the business has been run from day one - PSA8 Wags. Yes, new blood is in, but they're looking to make a profit.

Your points are good and was worth the read. Thank you for that.

Oh I did not mean to imply there's no impropriety in GRADING. I have said many times I think TPGs do Animal Farm grading -- some submitters are more equal than others.