General M116 Sporting Life Question

[droid714]

I've looked through old post and couldn't find the answer so I started this thread.

The M116 set was comprised of 24 sheets of 12 cards. According to my math, that comes to a total of 288 cards. Yet there are only 287 cards in the set, not counting variants.

What happened to the missing card?

Any information would be appreciated.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's a good article on the populations question for this issue. I have a few star cards from this set and used to have a large group of commons from one lot.

http://www.prewarcards.com/2016/10/0...ting-life-set/

[sb1]

The two cards of Jimmy Walsh(gray background and white background) were issued in different series(#20 & 22), thus they are considered different cards in the realm of the set and not variations..OR at least they account for the 24 series of 12 total of 288 cards.

There are of course two series of background color changes Blue vs. Pastel, which the images are also cropped slightly different. And there are several team changes, a few only recently discovered. Lastly many, maybe all of the first eighteen series were reissued in 1912 either as part of different numbered series or team series and had the Series of 300 Subjects backs, but were not in the tougher series 19-24 when originally issued in 1910 & 1911.

How's that for muddying the water a bit more.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by sb1

The two cards of Jimmy Walsh(gray background and white background) were issued in different series(#20 & 22), thus they are considered different cards in the realm of the set and not variations..OR at least they account for the 24 series of 12 total of 288 cards.

There are of course two series of background color changes Blue vs. Pastel, which the images are also cropped slightly different. And there are several team changes, a few only recently discovered. Lastly many, maybe all of the first eighteen series were reissued in 1912 either as part of different numbered series or team series and had the Series of 300 Subjects backs, but were not in the tougher series 19-24 when originally issued in 1910 & 1911.

How's that for muddying the water a bit more.

Well done!

[cubman1941]

Appreciate this thread - I found I have a couple variations I never realized as i hadn't checked the backs.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cubman1941

Appreciate this thread - I found I have a couple variations I never realized as i hadn't checked the backs.

I like back collecting as much as front collecting. (from the last collection)

[StraightRaceCards]

Trying to understand the M116 Sporting Life Set a little better here.

Does anyone have a master list for every player / front color variation?

I used TCDB as a starting point, but trying to determine what players all have blue/green background vs pastel vs the white/gray front.

Some of the grading companies labeling confuses me as a "Blue Back" to me but the card seems like a pastel in some cases. Do you know why that is the case?

Here is what I came up for hall of famers with based on TCDB:

Solid Blue Background:
Frank Chance
Chief Bender

Blue/Green Background:
Roger Bresnahan
Mordecai Brown
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Sam Crawford
Hughie Jennings
Nap Lajoie
Christy Mathewson
Honus Wagner

Pastel Background:
Frank Baker
Roger Bresnahan
Chief Bender
Buster Brown
Frank Chance
Fred Clarke
Eddie Collins
Sam Crawford
Miller Huggins
Hughie Jennings
Nap Lajoie
Christy Mathewson
Eddie Plank
Joe Tinker
Honus Wagner
Vic Willis
Cy Young

Gray/White Background:
Chief Bender
Frank Baker
Mordecai Brown
Frank Chance
Hugh Duffy
Johnny Evers
Elmer Flick
Clark Griffith
Harry Hooper
Walter Johnson
Addie Joss
Connie Mack
John McGraw
Tris Speaker
Rube Waddell
Bobby Wallace
Ed Walsh

Not my card, but the Cy Young is a good representation on what confuses me for the front color labeling. This to me looks pastel, but is labeled "Blue"

Would also love to see anyone show off their M116's. Looks like it's been a while since that's been done...!


Matt Galvin

[nolemmings]

Here's a link to the Old Cardboard checklist (an invaluable site IMO):
https://www.oldcardboard.com/m/m116/m116SearchIndex.asp
"Blue back" is a reference to the advertising on the back, as the cards can be found with either blue or black print.

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Here's a link to the Old Cardboard checklist (an invaluable site IMO):
https://www.oldcardboard.com/m/m116/m116SearchIndex.asp
"Blue back" is a reference to the advertising on the back, as the cards can be found with either in blue or black print.

To expand on Todd's comment a little bit, the backs of the cards come with several different variations including some printed in blue and black color print. If you look at Leon's image in the post above as an example, both the Conroy and Moren have the same text back, but in different colors. Young can be found with both black and blue printed backs, but is only found with the pastel background on the front of the card. Meanwhile, some players like Wagner can be found with both a pastel and blue background on the front of the card, but only blue printed backs.

[StraightRaceCards]

Thanks guys!

I hadn’t considered the backs, that makes sense!

[molenick]

This is my Jennings pair.

[brianp-beme]

And there is always the mystery hand cut blank back cards...here is my example.

Brian

[Casey2296]

-
One of my favorite images of Tris Speaker, I imagine if this image made it to the T206 portrait set it would be one of the most popular cards in the set.

Also, can't go wrong with Smoky Joe Wood.
-

[tycobb]

I like them just a little bit.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[molenick]

Amazing, Jorge! Are the blue ones scarcer than the pastel ones, or do you just prefer the pastel background?

[tbob]

I thought I had the master set but in the last 10-15 years a few anomalies have popped up which appear to be 1/1 s. I don’t know if a ‘true’ master set will ever exist.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by tbob

I thought I had the master set but in the last 10-15 years a few anomalies have popped up which appear to be 1/1 s. I don’t know if a ‘true’ master set will ever exist.

Bob speaks the truth. About ten years ago I lucked into a team variation (the below Frank Smith) in a group lot auction of 3 on Ebay. I say lucked into because I was bidding on the lot for the other two cards, but when I received the cards I noticed that the team designation on the Smith was not the normal Chicago Americans, but instead Boston Americans. It is still the only one known to exist (it no longer exists in my hands, but I have a scan of it before it was slabbed into submission).

I think this set and the E121 American Caramel Series of 80 are the two more common Prewar sets that are still the most likely to offer new discoveries.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

And here are Nap Rucker cards with image size and coloration (background, face and uniform) variations.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

And below is the link to the thread that discusses the cropping variations, like seen in the Rucker cards in the post above, between the black and blue background versions in some of the Series 3 M116 cards.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=243848


And and double and, below is the link to a sortable (by name, team, series, and rarity) master checklist located on the Old Cardboard website.

https://oldcardboard.com/m/m116/m116SearchIndex.asp


And and andy and, below is an image and link to a lot of a group of 31 of the envelopes these cards came in, from an old Lew Lipset auction. There are 7 in this lot that contained cards from just one team.

http://www.oldjudge.com/archive/2004...adliners/10/#a


m116sportinglifeenvelopesoldjudge.jpg

Brian

[tycobb]

Originally Posted by molenick

Amazing, Jorge! Are the blue ones scarcer than the pastel ones, or do you just prefer the pastel background?

Thanks Michael. From my experience the Blue backgrounds are more scarce. Only 24 players were issued with the blue background.

Anyone know the details / history of the blue backgrounds ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jimq16415]

A couple questions from a novice collector -

Is there any list anywhere of which backs are available for each player?

and

Are any of the backs more scarce than others?

I only have one of these but if other backs are available for that one I'll watch for others.

Thanks for all the information on this site!

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by jimq16415

A couple questions from a novice collector -

Is there any list anywhere of which backs are available for each player?

and

Are any of the backs more scarce than others?

I only have one of these but if other backs are available for that one I'll watch for others.

Thanks for all the information on this site!

Hi Jim, the second link in post # 19 of this thread includes a master checklist for this set, and indicates what backs for each subject are available. What it doesn't indicate is what the '1', '2' and '3' represent for the backs.

Here is what I believe are the backs designated by these numbers:

1 - "When you think..." with blue ink
2 - "If you want..." with blue ink
3 - "Over 300 Subjects" with blank ink

Having stated that, I believe there are at least 9 errors in these back listings (or else I have very special cards of each of these). The below is the list of cards that might potentially have incorrect designations:


012a Jack Barry - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

018a George Bell - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

023a Bob Bescher - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

036a Bobby Byrne - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

072a Mickey Doolan - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

110a Topsy Hartsel - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

166a Amby McConnell - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

177a Fred Merkle - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

258a Bill Sweeney - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead


It is interesting to note that all these possible discrepancies involve cards having backs designated to be "If you want", whereas I have seen these cards having the "When you think" back.

There might be more discrepancies...these are the ones I know about.


Brian

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by tycobb

Thanks Michael. From my experience the Blue backgrounds are more scarce. Only 24 players were issued with the blue background.

Anyone know the details / history of the blue backgrounds ?

Not too much info, but each of the 24 blue background variations are of the subjects from either the 1st series of 12 cards, or the 2nd series of 12. Also, each blue background card has a "When you think" back, printed in blue ink.

Here is the Old Cardboard link again, except this time I have changed the sorting so that it shows the cards listed in order by the series.

https://oldcardboard.com/m/m116/m116SearchIndex.asp


Brian

[jimq16415]

Thanks Brian!

In my case I have an Addie Joss with grey/white (pastel) background and a blue ink "if you want" back. All the copies I've seen are the same but according to that chart I should be able to find "over 300 subjects" with black ink also? For years I never really looked for the "over 300 subjects", I never knew there was a difference. Thanks for the help, new thing to watch for!

jim

[anchorednw]

Originally Posted by tycobb

Thanks Michael. From my experience the Blue backgrounds are more scarce. Only 24 players were issued with the blue background.

Anyone know the details / history of the blue backgrounds ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's a common misconception that the blue backgrounds are scarcer than the pastel. While some blue backgrounds are more scarce, some pastel backgrounds appear to be slightly more scarce than their blue counterparts. See Bresnahan, M. Brown, Crawford, Gibson, Jordan, Lajoie, Leach, Lord, Tenney, and Thomas.

[sb1]

As to the front back combinations for rarity/value it is not as easy as one would think. Normally the two more common Sporting Life backs are found on the first 18 series and then the "300 Subjects" backs on series 19-24, which are the scarce ones. All of these were issued in 1910-11. What is not well known(or in the guides) and overlooked is the fact that Sporting Life also put out many of the 1-18 series cards with "300 Subjects" backs in 1912 and 1913 which are not as scarce as the others. I believe these were issued in the Team Envelopes of the series 80-90 and possibly early team sets 50-70.

[timn1]

Back issues of my article in Old Cardboard, which is the most comprehensive info on the set, are still available at

https://www.oldcardboard.com/subscriptions.asp


From the Old Cardboard M116 checklist page:
"For a detailed description of the Sporting Life set, see article by Tim Newcomb in Old Cardboard magazine (1910-12 M116 Sporting Life: A (Mostly) Pastel Treasure, Issue #18, Winter 2009, p. 14)."

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by timn1

Back issues of my article in Old Cardboard, which is the most comprehensive info on the set, are still available at

https://www.oldcardboard.com/subscriptions.asp


From the Old Cardboard M116 checklist page:
"For a detailed description of the Sporting Life set, see article by Tim Newcomb in Old Cardboard magazine (1910-12 M116 Sporting Life: A (Mostly) Pastel Treasure, Issue #18, Winter 2009, p. 14)."

Glad to see you chime in on this thread, because I always associate this set with you.

I do have one question...I have the following cards listed below with the 'When You Think" backs, which differs from what shows on the Master Checklist on the Old Cardboard site. I assume that examples of each of these cards should be as I have listed them (or else I am just one incredibly lucky ducky collector).

012a Jack Barry - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

018a George Bell - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

023a Bob Bescher - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

036a Bobby Byrne - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

072a Mickey Doolan - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

110a Topsy Hartsel - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

166a Amby McConnell - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

177a Fred Merkle - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

258a Bill Sweeney - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead


Brian

[markf31]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Glad to see you chime in on this thread, because I always associate this set with you.

I do have one question...I have the following cards listed below with the 'When You Think" backs, which differs from what shows on the Master Checklist on the Old Cardboard site. I assume that examples of each of these cards should be as I have listed them (or else I am just one incredibly lucky ducky collector).

012a Jack Barry - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

018a George Bell - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

023a Bob Bescher - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

036a Bobby Byrne - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

072a Mickey Doolan - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

110a Topsy Hartsel - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

166a Amby McConnell - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

177a Fred Merkle - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

258a Bill Sweeney - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead


Brian

Brian, when I checked the list just now on the oldcardboard site, all of the cards you listed are in fact listed in the checklist as having a Type 1 "When you think" back.

Did you perhaps copy and paste the checklist from the site into Excel and the rows shifted on you?

[StraightRaceCards]

Originally Posted by anchorednw

It's a common misconception that the blue backgrounds are scarcer than the pastel. While some blue backgrounds are more scarce, some pastel backgrounds appear to be slightly more scarce than their blue counterparts. See Bresnahan, M. Brown, Crawford, Gibson, Jordan, Lajoie, Leach, Lord, Tenney, and Thomas.

Good to know. I assumed blue was scarcer across the board

That rarity list on Old Cardboard was helpful

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by markf31

Brian, when I checked the list just now on the oldcardboard site, all of the cards you listed are in fact listed in the checklist as having a Type 1 "When you think" back.

Did you perhaps copy and paste the checklist from the site into Excel and the rows shifted on you?

Thanks Mark, I actually had printed off this checklist in January 2009, and I guess those entries were updated at some point after this time. Time to print off a new checklist. And of course this means I am not such a lucky ducky M116 collector after all!

Brian