1948 Leaf Satchel Paige (Real or Fake)

[brunswickreeves]

Any 1948 Leaf experts out there who can weigh in on the authenticity of this raw Satchel Paige at eBay auction?

My heart jumped when I saw this, however upon closer inspection, it doesn’t look to have the right understrikes and blur, and the back seems pressed on the edges. Thanks for insights!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/13475499987...=artemis&media

[Lucas00]

Fake along with the sellers Berra and Cobb. Stay far away from perfectly rounded corners, that's not how a corner looks when it gets rounded from a sharp point.

The two 57s though.. not certain. The Aaron looks decent to me, but would need to feel it for sure.

Would definitely stay away after seeing the Berra and Cobb though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Authenticity guarantee on raw cards now. Whoever wastes 1000s on this will get it back.

[campyfan39]

'He is selling as reprints because he "isnt sure" and it says he doesn't accept returns. Sounds fishy to me and the Cobb looks really fake IMO. he has also only sold 15 items in 7 years.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Authenticity guarantee on raw cards now. Whoever wastes 1000s on this will get it back.

I’ve wondered what happens if eBay Authenticity (incorrectly) authenticates such an item, you break the hologram affixing the flap to the back of the plastic sleeve it comes in, send to PSA or SGC for grading and slabbing and then turns out is fake per their graders…

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

'He is selling as reprints because he "isnt sure" and it says he doesn't accept returns. Sounds fishy to me and the Cobb looks really fake IMO. he has also only sold 15 items in 7 years.

He isn't sure, but he knows the original printing process for Topps and Bowman. And knows how fakes are printed. Kinda weird that he knows all that but can't tell if what he has is legitimate 😂. Almost like he's the one that created them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think he reallzes there is an Authenticator. Talks about shipping signature required blah blah.

And there is this LOL what an absolute crock of nonsense.

I obviously haven't had them graded & can't tell you anything but what I see & what I was told... bottom line, these cards look amazing! To be fair, being I'm not 100% sure I'm going to sell them all as reprints, but honestly I don't even think they made reprints 40-50 years ago, plus I've seen plenty of reprints & I have never seen one that used Offset Lithography Mechanical Printing, which is what Topps & Bowman have used since the turn of the century & still do today! It's a fact that 99.99% of all reprints you see online for sale are printed with a Laser or Inkjet printer, not Offset Lithography Mechanical Printing is a process where photographs of the original artworks are converted into a photographic negative (“plate”). They are then transferred (“offset”) from a plate to a rubber blanket, then to the printing surface for mass production. I figured I would put them up and let you be the judge... all I can tell you is they look totally legit to me & I think you'll see the same thing.Good luck!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by brunswickreeves

I’ve wondered what happens if eBay Authenticity (incorrectly) authenticates such an item, you break the hologram affixing the flap to the back of the plastic sleeve it comes in, send to PSA or SGC for grading and slabbing and then turns out is fake per their graders…

Once CGC authenticates a raw card that's game set and match I believe. No returns.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Once CGC authenticates a raw card that's game set and match I believe. No returns.

Thanks!

[ahmanfan]

I’m sorry but the Card looks real to me. I’ll have to look at the sellers other items for context but the toning and surface wrinkles just look good to me. I get the point about the corners but they aren’t perfectly uniform. Usually I agree with the consensus on these but not sure in this case.


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[ahmanfan]

His other cards for sale are all fake, undoubtedly. Based on that context I agree on Paige but the card does not look obviously bad in a vacuum, IMO


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[brunswickreeves]

For sure, compared to other listings one would assume the Paige is also fake. However, it does look like could be authentic, however the understrikes and coloration blur doesn’t seem to be there. Why I’ve brought to Net54 community…

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Man, from a computer image, that's an awfully good fake if it is one. It's getting scary out there. Maybe in hand it will be easier to tell.

[BobbyStrawberry]

From the item description:

"I was at an Estate Sale in the Hollywood Hills in Southern California...this place was a gorgeous 8 bedroom mansion overlooking Hollywood."

I agree with other members (and, evidently, with many bidders) that the card does not look look obviously fake, but the item description is a major red flag.

[pawpawdiv9]

Looks bad to me
As a owner of a PSA 1:
This example looks 'baked' and the edeges i have seen, look too dark & dirty, most i seen are brownish color.
The text block also looks suspicious, almost too pinkish
This is only my observation at first glance, am far from being a expert.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ahmanfan

I’m sorry but the Card looks real to me. I’ll have to look at the sellers other items for context but the toning and surface wrinkles just look good to me. I get the point about the corners but they aren’t perfectly uniform. Usually I agree with the consensus on these but not sure in this case.


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You don't have to be sorry just because you make an honest mistake. Just learn from it.

Edited to add, it's a good fake.

[rjackson44]

Run fast

[JustinD]

That’s certainly one of the better fakes I’ve seen, but it’s still a fake. They are starting to get better admittedly, but still plenty of tells to read.

Editing to add that I looked at the other listings and how did they cut the other cards…with a rusty butter knife? Yeesh, those are rough fakes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

IMO nobody honest is selling a 48L Paige ungraded, especially with a long line of BS.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO nobody honest is selling a 48L Paige ungraded, especially with a long line of BS.

But, but..
Estate sale, Hollywood mansion, 8 bedrooms...
Doesn't that count as swanky provenance?

[KCRfan1]

Nothing found in Hollywood is going to be fake......

[JollyElm]

268. Unicornering (Unicornery)
A card doctor making all four corners of a very rare and valuable (fake) card universally, symmetrically rounded, although a card like that does not exist in the natural world.

[Lucas00]

Seller just added another fake, this time a '52 Jackie. Same corner job, fake staining etc. Adding to Elms new term I would call them "sharp rounded corners" almost like a playing card. I would also challenge any collector on the board to take a worthless or beat up common from the 50s/60s or even the 80s and try to replicate that perfectly round corner wear, it is not possible on a real card that has thin stock. Especially without damaging the card in other ways. This is best viewable by looking at the corners from the back, they have essentially zero damage but are perfectly round.

These fakes are on a heavy 2-3x thicker stock that is abnormally stiff from whatever their mad scientist process is. Allowing use of some kind of tool that can round the corners and not crease/damage the rest of the card. Almost like a piece of very thin wood.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Set oven to 375 and bake for 10 min.

[ctownboy]

I love how these estate sale finds always only have Hall Of Fame and superstar cards.....

David

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by ahmanfan

I’m sorry but the Card looks real to me. I’ll have to look at the sellers other items for context but the toning and surface wrinkles just look good to me. I get the point about the corners but they aren’t perfectly uniform. Usually I agree with the consensus on these but not sure in this case.


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It's as fake as can be.

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

But, but..
Estate sale, Hollywood mansion, 8 bedrooms...
Doesn't that count as swanky provenance?

Don't forget Granny was using it for a bookmark.

[mannequin1]

RESPONSE FROM THE EBAY SELLER TO ME AFTER i QUESTIONED THEM: If you read the description its really pretty self explanatory. I never said that they are 100% legit, I stated that they looked great to me, which they do. I can tell you beyond a shadow of doubt that I haven't touched them in any way shape or form. How you see them is exactly how I bought them. Quite honestly, I decided to put them up for sale because there is no way I could afford to get them graded if they end up being original, which I think they will. To be fair, being I'm not 100% sure I'm going to sell them all as reprints. If you read the description it explains everything that I know about the cards. Other than what I stated I cant tell you anything else. If you would like to bid feel free , if you would rather not, then don't. No hard feelings here either way. Like I also stated, you be the judge... I can only go by what I have been told by the person who sold the to me. Please re read the description & you'll see I was quite clear with my thoughts.. Have a great weekend & take care, B

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by mannequin1

If you read the description its really pretty self explanatory. I never said that they are 100% legit, I stated that they looked great to me, which they do. I can tell you beyond a shadow of doubt that I haven't touched them in any way shape or form. How you see them is exactly how I bought them. Quite honestly, I decided to put them up for sale because there is no way I could afford to get them graded if they end up being original, which I think they will. To be fair, being I'm not 100% sure I'm going to sell them all as reprints. If you read the description it explains everything that I know about the cards. Other than what I stated I cant tell you anything else. If you would like to bid feel free , if you would rather not, then don't. No hard feelings here either way. Like I also stated, you be the judge... I can only go by what I have been told by the person who sold the to me. Please re read the description & you'll see I was quite clear with my thoughts.. Have a great weekend & take care, B

Exactly. You do not need to even look at the card to know it’s fake. It has to be fake just from the description.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by mannequin1

If you read the description its really pretty self explanatory. I never said that they are 100% legit, I stated that they looked great to me, which they do. I can tell you beyond a shadow of doubt that I haven't touched them in any way shape or form. How you see them is exactly how I bought them. Quite honestly, I decided to put them up for sale because there is no way I could afford to get them graded if they end up being original, which I think they will. To be fair, being I'm not 100% sure I'm going to sell them all as reprints. If you read the description it explains everything that I know about the cards. Other than what I stated I cant tell you anything else. If you would like to bid feel free , if you would rather not, then don't. No hard feelings here either way. Like I also stated, you be the judge... I can only go by what I have been told by the person who sold the to me. Please re read the description & you'll see I was quite clear with my thoughts.. Have a great weekend & take care, B

Just deleting this to not bring any extra confusion 😃.

[mannequin1]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Exactly. You do not need to even look at the card to know it’s fake. It has to be fake just from the description.

And what about the T205 Cobb and the other trimmed cards?

[calvindog]

Gee, that's a tough one.

[mannequin1]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

After reading this thread and now knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt these are fakes why would you comment this and not take them down? You did the literal opposite of what you should've. Instead of removing them and saying sorry I didn't know, you basically came in promoting them saying bid away guys! Who knows, you might get a deal!

You know they're fake and damn well know if they had even a 1% chance of being real you would send them to psa or sgc. Shame on you. "Can't afford it" classic bs. Of course you can't, they're fake and you would rather them not charge you just to say these are all reproduced. And instead try to slip one by ebay on the off chance an authenticator is half asleep.

The above comment is the message that "I" RECEIVED BACK FROM THE EBAY SELLER.

[calvindog]

All of his shit is fake.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by mannequin1

The above comment is the message that "I" RECEIVED BACK FROM THE EBAY SELLER.

LOL you definitely should've mentioned that crucial bit of info. As you wrote it in first person. Apologies in any case.

[mannequin1]

I'm pretty sure it's a woman, although a man may be behind it.

[JustinD]

Really I think they have no idea how eBay now works as I hope that CSG (even though I don't like them) better catch all of this crapola and refund funds. A better message to the seller would be explaining that each and every one of these is not going to the buyer and they will be paying it back. So they are essentially wasting their time completely.

I think we will start seeing less of this and more lower value fakes to slide under the review window end prices.

[Snowman]

This is not a good fake, yet somehow it seems as though it may still be able to fool even a few Net54 collectors. I collect 48 Leaf, and I have the Paige. Once you handle the real thing enough, it's easy to spot a fake. This card stock isn't even close, and the printing methodology is wrong. But this is a prime example of why the hobby needs TPGs. Someone would be getting scammed with this card 25 years ago. Nobody is getting scammed by it today because of grading.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One of the BODA guys tells me the reprints of many of these are available on Etsy for a couple of bucks.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is not a good fake, yet somehow it seems as though it may still be able to fool even a few Net54 collectors. I collect 48 Leaf, and I have the Paige. Once you handle the real thing enough, it's easy to spot a fake. This card stock isn't even close, and the printing methodology is wrong. But this is a prime example of why the hobby needs TPGs. Someone would be getting scammed with this card 25 years ago. Nobody is getting scammed by it today because of grading.

This unfortunate person will be saved by Ebay. How many ungraded/raw '48 Leaf Paiges have you handled ?Just curious?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

This unfortunate person will be saved by Ebay. How many ungraded/raw '48 Leaf Paiges have you handled ?Just curious?

Raw 48 Leafs? Hundreds, at least. Raw 48 Leaf Paiges? Zero. Mine is slabbed and has been since I purchased it.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Raw 48 Leafs? Hundreds, at least. Raw 48 Leaf Paiges? Zero. Mine is slabbed and has been since I purchased it.

I bought one on Ebay a long time ago from the Hardcore Pawn people. It was raw. I got it in hand. Looked real to me. Not artificially aged liked this one. Came back fake.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

Seller just added another fake, this time a '52 Jackie. Same corner job, fake staining etc. Adding to Elms new term I would call them "sharp rounded corners" almost like a playing card. I would also challenge any collector on the board to take a worthless or beat up common from the 50s/60s or even the 80s and try to replicate that perfectly round corner wear, it is not possible on a real card that has thin stock. Especially without damaging the card in other ways. This is best viewable by looking at the corners from the back, they have essentially zero damage but are perfectly round.

These fakes are on a heavy 2-3x thicker stock that is abnormally stiff from whatever their mad scientist process is. Allowing use of some kind of tool that can round the corners and not crease/damage the rest of the card. Almost like a piece of very thin wood.

Punches to round corners can be had for less than $10 on Amazon, and small pressing machined with round corner tools for under 100 if you look more than a couple minutes. A set of round chisels that will do is often under 20.

The shop I was at in High school had one I got to run one day. it round cornered maybe 50-100 pieces at a time. And was made in about 1910.

I have some 48L with similar but less clean rounding, which is normal.

That rounding is easy, making it look like natural wear is not.

[G1911]

what appears to be this same counterfeit version is for sale for $5.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1447131...b%3A1447131624

There are several other fake 1949 Paige's on Etsy for a few bucks or even less, but I think this is from the same batch.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is not a good fake, yet somehow it seems as though it may still be able to fool even a few Net54 collectors. I collect 48 Leaf, and I have the Paige. Once you handle the real thing enough, it's easy to spot a fake. This card stock isn't even close, and the printing methodology is wrong. But this is a prime example of why the hobby needs TPGs. Someone would be getting scammed with this card 25 years ago. Nobody is getting scammed by it today because of grading.

Are we sure about this? I seem to recall a perforated Connie Mack Cracker Jack card that was a much more obvious fake than this, residing in a numbered PSA Slab.

Just sayin'