1896-1911 Detroit Tigers Bennett Park Vendor Badge

[Shoeless Moe]

Sometimes if I see an item priced too low on an extremely neat item I grab it. This comes from an estate with several other period Badges (police, fire, auto, baseball) from the Detroit area, but this was by far the cream of the crop.

However, this really needs to be in a Detroit collectors hands or someone with other period items. So offering it here.

A little history on Bennett Park:

"Mention the corner of Michigan and Trumbull to baseball fans in the Motor City, and they will immediately think of Tiger Stadium. While it is true that the Detroit Tigers played in that storied park, at that location, from 1912 to 1999, the history of professional baseball at “The Corner” actually dates back to 1896. Back then, Detroit was still largely a city of lumber barons, not automobile magnates. That was the year that the Detroit Tigers, then a minor-league outfit in Ban Johnson’s Western League, opened Bennett Park. The team had previously been known as the Wolverines, but in 1895, manager George Stallings outfitted the team in spiffy new black and yellow striped stockings. Fans and sportswriters alike started referring to the team as the Tigers. Thus, it was only fitting that the following year the team move into new digs to go along with the new nickname.

Built at a cost of $10,000 by club owner George Arthur Vanderbeck, Bennett Park was situated in Detroit’s Corktown neighborhood.

The park was named after Charlie Bennett, a former catcher for the National League Detroit Wolverines of the 1880s. He has been credited as being the first catcher to don an inside chest protector, and to crouch close behind the batter. Tragically, Bennett had lost both legs while stepping off a train in Wellsville, Kansas.

On August 30, 1905, a young player just up from Augusta in the Sally League, where he had hit .326, played in his first major-league game for the Detroit Tigers. He batted fifth in the lineup against the New York Highlanders’ Jack Chesbro, a future Hall of Famer who had won 41 games the previous year. About 1,200 people were in the stands at Bennett Park. With a record of 52-60, 15 1/2 games out of first place, the hometown team was simply playing out the string. In the first inning, the young rookie hit a double to left-center field, driving in a run. It was the first of 4,189 hits in his career, a record at the time of his retirement. His name was Ty Cobb. The Tigers still struggled that year, even with the presence of Cobb, who went on to hit .240, the only time in his career he failed to hit .300.

Bennett Park would host the 1907, 1908 and 1909 World Series, with Detroit losing all 3, to the Cubs twice and Pirates once. After their frustrating World Series losses three years in a row, the Tigers played at Bennett Park for two more seasons.

In its short but colorful history, Bennett Park played host to some very good baseball, along with three World Series. In addition to Tigers greats such as Cobb and Crawford, the list of legends who played at the park reads like a “Who’s Who in Deadball History”: Cy Young, Honus Wagner, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Eddie Collins, Tris Speaker, Ed Walsh, Smokey Joe Wood, Jack Chesbro and Nap Lajoie, to name a few. Philadelphia Athletics manager Connie Mack waved his scorecard from Bennett Park’s visitor’s bench on many an occasion. Even a young John McGraw managed a few games there when he was the visiting skipper for the Baltimore Orioles in their early American League years. By the end of the 1911 season, however, Frank Navin, by now the principal owner of the Tigers, would tear down the rickety wooden park, build a new, bigger baseball palace on the same site, and name it after himself. Navin Field eventually became Briggs Stadium, which in turn became Tiger Stadium, and the Tigers continued to play at the corner of Michigan and Trumbull until the end of the century. But it was Bennett Park that started it all."

$400 Shipped

[Scott Garner]

Neat item, Paul!
Good luck finding its next owner.

[Shoeless Moe]

Thanks Scott.

Lowering to:

$350 shipped

[Keith H. Thompson]

how do I pay you? Keith H Thompson

[Shoeless Moe]

No longer available - may not be authentic

[Keith H. Thompson]

I received instructions to pay via Paypal. I have done so and have receipt. Please send, authentic or not. keith

[Shoeless Moe]

Sorry, if it's not authentic, and it is not, I can't sell.


And no you have not paid, so please do not.

[Joe_G.]

Hello Shoeless Moe, I've taken interest in this listing. Can you elaborate on three points ?

1) How do you know this piece isn't authentic?
2) Why can't you sell a fantasy piece?
3) What are your plans if not selling?

I don't have interest in purchasing but like to study all things early Detroit baseball. I think this piece, fantasy or not, would make a great addition to Keith's amazing collection if you should make it available. Thank you in advance.

[Keith H. Thompson]

1. original listing says the badge was found in a lot of Detroit pins and like, and should be a "Detroit Collector's hands." I qualify since I have been collecting Detroit items since 1938.
2. seller: item sold pending payment
3. seller sends me a message requesting payment via Paypal F&F
4. seller sends me a message saying "don't pay, may not be authentic." but I have already send payment via Paypal F&F as requested. I have receipt but now understand that a recipient can refuse to accept it for any reason.
5. as to authenticity, I'm as good a judge as anybody in the Net54 room when it comes to 19th century Detroit memorabilia, excepting Joe Gonsowski and Jay Miller.

The most irksome thing of all is that an item appears, I go through all the ethical and proper steps, but I am not allowed to bid on the item, as I believe is happening.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Keith H. Thompson

1. original listing says the badge was found in a lot of Detroit pins and like, and should be a "Detroit Collector's hands." I qualify since I have been collecting Detroit items since 1938.
2. seller: item sold pending payment
3. seller sends me a message requesting payment via Paypal F&F
4. seller sends me a message saying "don't pay, may not be authentic." but I have already send payment via Paypal F&F as requested. I have receipt but now understand that a recipient can refuse to accept it for any reason.
5. as to authenticity, I'm as good a judge as anybody in the Net54 room when it comes to 19th century Detroit memorabilia, excepting Joe Gonsowski and Jay Miller.

The most irksome thing of all is that an item appears, I go through all the ethical and proper steps, but I am not allowed to bid on the item, as I believe is happening.

You went radio silent for 24 hours. After you said "how do I pay?" I immediately messaged you - no response.

You still have not replied to me via email or pm here and I sent you messages to both.

You claim you have some receipt for payment - lets see it - because I sure never got payment nor refused it - send me a pix of it via pm or email, or since for some odd reason you refuse to message me direct post it here, would love to see this receipt.

Had you messaged me within 24 hours you might have had a chance at it.

You could have said I'll pay tomorrow, or ANYTHING, but to not reply for 24 hours after saying I'll take it is a bit odd. Especially as you have been on here, yet again you don't reply to my PMs here or to my email to you.

[Lucas00]

Sounds like a scammer might've intercepted the payment and communication.
If that's the case it definitely explains what's going on. And would be really unfortunate..
Hopefully I'm wrong.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

Hello Shoeless Moe, I've taken interest in this listing. Can you elaborate on three points ?

1) How do you know this piece isn't authentic?
2) Why can't you sell a fantasy piece?
3) What are your plans if not selling?

I don't have interest in purchasing but like to study all things early Detroit baseball. I think this piece, fantasy or not, would make a great addition to Keith's amazing collection if you should make it available. Thank you in advance.

Do you know Howard Usher of Vintage Sports Pins and Memorabilia. He advised me with a very long explanation of it be a fake. I'm not selling a fake. Had Keith messaged me within the past 24 hours with a long explanation on how he would be good with a fake then maybe I would have considered, but since he didn't reply and I am in possession of a fake item, I began working on returning it and getting my money back.

[Keith H. Thompson]

I will give my version of the time line.

1. April 2, 9:58 PM (from Paul) Keith, let me know if you are going to pay, or if you changed your mind because I just got messaged by someone to let them know if the person doesn't pay. So, just let me know or PayPal F&F

2. April 3, 11:55 AM (from Keith) "want desperately to pay for the Vendor's Badge"

3. April 3, 1:01 PM (from Keith) "trying to figure out how to send by PayPal"

4. April 3, 1:11 PM (from Paul) Keith don't I'm not sure it's authentic

5. April 3,1:24 PM PayPal transaction ORP25085UL020001U 360.45 (currently pending) (transaction appears as *pgrus.... )

I am very familiar with items like medals and sports related artifacts that have been doctored to indicate they were awarded to a known athlete and hence appraised (and sold) in four figures by auction houses. These appear to come from England, but the methods are available to anyone. An example known to me was a Sam Thompson item and sold in spite of objections of fake, including myself.

I am not an adversarial person by nature, and it was not a private message, but I did indicate in one of my posts that I wanted to purchase, "authentic or not."

The entire time line is less than 24 hours, and I do not see how I can be faulted for lack of interest or reasonable response.

Keith

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Do you know Howard Usher of Vintage Sports Pins and Memorabilia. He advised me with a very long explanation of it be a fake. I'm not selling a fake. Had Keith messaged me within the past 24 hours with a long explanation on how he would be good with a fake then maybe I would have considered, but since he didn't reply and I am in possession of a fake item, I began working on returning it and getting my money back.

Paul I know Howard Usher very well and I did see you had this item listed on the Vintage Pin Back site. You took it down as soon a s Howard told you he thought it was bad.... People are wrong from time to time also.
But I look at it this way if Mr Thompson (And I dont know him at all) wants to buy the pin sell it to him. Looks like to me that you already did as he committed to buying it... You should honor your word.... EVEN if it is fake or not hes a big boy. Let him be the judge.. I think your wrong here Paul fake or not you should honor your post...

[Shoeless Moe]

Dude, it was already in the mail on the way back to the seller the minute I learned it was fake. I shipped it out Monday afternoon. Keith had not replied in 24 hours. Had he replied at any point within the 24 hours since he ghosted it would be his. He messed up, not me.

I also messaged Keith and gave him the seller's information and contacted the seller and advised the seller that someone will be contacting you to purchase and he doesn't care if its real or fake, so the seller was very happy I did that for them. So the ball in in Keith's court.

He will still get it and for about 60-70 bucks cheaper. Not much else I can do here.

Court adjourned.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Dude, it was already in the mail on the way back to the seller the minute I learned it was fake. I shipped it out Monday afternoon. Keith had not replied in 24 hours. Had he replied at any point within the 24 hours since he ghosted it would be his. He messed up, not me.

I also messaged Keith and gave him the seller's information and contacted the seller and advised the seller that someone will be contacting you to purchase and he doesn't care if its real or fake, so the seller was very happy I did that for them. So the ball in in Keith's court.

He will still get it and for about 60-70 bucks cheaper. Not much else I can do here.

Court adjourned.

Oh and by the way DUDE court may be adjourned but the jury is still out on how you conduct yourself here... And also I found it funny how you posted it up on the other board even after this man said he wanted to buy it. Then you took it down after Howard Usher posted in your post I believe it doesnt look good. Cant check it because you deleted it....

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

Oh and by the way DUDE court may be adjourned but the jury is still out on how you conduct yourself here... And also I found it funny how you posted it up on the other board even after this man said he wanted to buy it. Then you took it down after Howard Usher posted in your post I believe it doesnt look good. Cant check it because you deleted it....

Once again you are wrong. I posted it here and there at the same time. Just more eyeballs on it. After Howard posted his comment he and I talked back and forth, I sent him some examples, he expressed his knowledge on these, he also is a "group expert" on that Site.

His reasons and expertise were very solid, no reason for me to doubt him. I then deleted the Post, why keep it up. It was no longer for sale and heading back to the seller.

What business is it of yours anyway? Are you the Board Police here?

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Keith H. Thompson

I will give my version of the time line.

1. April 2, 9:58 PM (from Paul) Keith, let me know if you are going to pay, or if you changed your mind because I just got messaged by someone to let them know if the person doesn't pay. So, just let me know or PayPal F&F

2. April 3, 11:55 AM (from Keith) "want desperately to pay for the Vendor's Badge"

3. April 3, 1:01 PM (from Keith) "trying to figure out how to send by PayPal"

4. April 3, 1:11 PM (from Paul) Keith don't I'm not sure it's authentic

5. April 3,1:24 PM PayPal transaction ORP25085UL020001U 360.45 (currently pending) (transaction appears as *pgrus.... )

I am very familiar with items like medals and sports related artifacts that have been doctored to indicate they were awarded to a known athlete and hence appraised (and sold) in four figures by auction houses. These appear to come from England, but the methods are available to anyone. An example known to me was a Sam Thompson item and sold in spite of objections of fake, including myself.

I am not an adversarial person by nature, and it was not a private message, but I did indicate in one of my posts that I wanted to purchase, "authentic or not."

The entire time line is less than 24 hours, and I do not see how I can be faulted for lack of interest or reasonable response.

Keith

#2 is entirely untrue. I rec'd ZERO email/pms from you after the initial "I'll take it" email. Whereas I sent you a few messages, none receiving a response. We can have Leon check if need be, and you will be 100% proven incorrect. Check your sent messages file on here and take a screenshot, post it. Would love to see these messages. #3 was posted in the thread which I didn't see until I had already been to the Post Office to send it back to the original seller, so I did not see that message until it was on its way back. Thus 24 hours too late. Again, you sent me zero personal messages within 24 hours. By then it was on its way back to the seller.

Or just drop it already, I've given you the original Seller info., you can contact them for it. You will get it cheaper. Not sure the uproar. I just personally didn't want to sell a fake item, but Al next time I get a fake I'll be sure to come to you for first dibs.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Once again you are wrong. I posted it here and there at the same time. Just more eyeballs on it. After Howard posted his comment he and I talked back and forth, I sent him some examples, he expressed his knowledge on these, he also is a "group expert" on that Site.

His reasons and expertise were very solid, no reason for me to doubt him. I then deleted the Post, why keep it up. It was no longer for sale and heading back to the seller.

What business is it of yours anyway? Are you the Board Police here?

Nope no board police here.... Just know I would never buy Jack from you DUDE...

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

Nope no board police here.... Just know I would never buy Jack from you DUDE...

Not a problem whatsoever dude.

[Keith H. Thompson]

that Keith H. Thompson is a senile, gullible fool. Probably true. I have no defense.

Yes, I stand by my time line. The messages were done by email, hence unverifiable. These are now irrelevant to the end game.

I am grateful to Shoeless Moe for arranging for the eventual acquisition of the Vendor's Badge which is currently in progress.

As to authentic, it is easy to see how an appraiser would be doubtful since the lettering is uneven, even amateurish. Yet, I have never seen another "genuine" badge for comparison, and I find it hard to believe that a forger would choose such an obscure item for such relatively little compensation. To me it looks "right," but maybe I'm too close to the subject and just want to believe because I am a serious collector of baseball stadium artifacts and have nice examples of seats from the 14 stadiums that the 16 original teams played in, say around 1950. Mostly aisle end whenever available, including the Polo Grounds and Ebbets Field. But no chair from Bennett Park although I do have early Haywood-Wakefield examples from Navin Field. I also have Sam Thompson's widows lifetime pass to Bennett Park. Thus, the Vendor's Badge is important to me, and cost is not the problem.

Lest my love of old Baseball Stadiums be doubted, I recently went to a game at historic Grayson Park to see the "Savannah Bananas" play a "game" vs the "Party Animals." Details available upon request. For me, sitting on an original wooden bench with umpteen layers of paint, a stadium where Jackie Robinson and Hank Aaron once played, is what I enjoy most. Food and drink is free inside the park, you can exit and reenter at will, they don't bother to check tickets on entrance, and the game is a joke, but the stadium is real.

But, I betray again my "gullible, old fool" status.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

#2 is entirely untrue. I rec'd ZERO email/pms from you after the initial "I'll take it" email. Whereas I sent you a few messages, none receiving a response. We can have Leon check if need be, and you will be 100% proven incorrect. Check your sent messages file on here and take a screenshot, post it. Would love to see these messages. #3 was posted in the thread which I didn't see until I had already been to the Post Office to send it back to the original seller, so I did not see that message until it was on its way back. Thus 24 hours too late. Again, you sent me zero personal messages within 24 hours. By then it was on its way back to the seller.

Or just drop it already, I've given you the original Seller info., you can contact them for it. You will get it cheaper. Not sure the uproar. I just personally didn't want to sell a fake item, but Al next time I get a fake I'll be sure to come to you for first dibs.

Hey Shoeless Blow GTH DUDE!!

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

#2 is entirely untrue. I rec'd ZERO email/pms from you after the initial "I'll take it" email. Whereas I sent you a few messages, none receiving a response. We can have Leon check if need be, and you will be 100% proven incorrect. Check your sent messages file on here and take a screenshot, post it. Would love to see these messages. #3 was posted in the thread which I didn't see until I had already been to the Post Office to send it back to the original seller, so I did not see that message until it was on its way back. Thus 24 hours too late. Again, you sent me zero personal messages within 24 hours. By then it was on its way back to the seller.

Or just drop it already, I've given you the original Seller info., you can contact them for it. You will get it cheaper. Not sure the uproar. I just personally didn't want to sell a fake item, but Al next time I get a fake I'll be sure to come to you for first dibs.

Hey Shoeless Blow GTH DUDE!!

[Keith H. Thompson]

Shoeless Moe claims that I never paid him, yet that has not prevented someone from cashing the PayPal F&F payment in the amount of 360.45 that he requested.

Since he "returned the pin to the seller" the instant he learned that it "was not authentic" this seems unfair and a violation of BST's presumed ethical policy.

Shoeless Moe also says that if he gets any more fakes, he knows where to send them. I hope so. I look forward to more "fakes" like the Bennett Park Vendor Badge.

[Shoeless Moe]

Keith, I understand you're a "senior" senior (in your 90's), can you maybe have your son or daughter, or a grandkid, assist you?

I never got any payment from you. If you do not know how, ask them to 1. look into it, where the payment went. 2. To produce a screenshot. Either post it here or message me it.

I have still yet to get one message from you. All your messages are posted here.

If you got the badge from the seller, you should be happy. Again, I am the one the connected you two, yet you still complain.

I understand grumpy old man syndrome, we'll all get that one day most likely, but seriously if you are out money, you need to look into that. Ask someone to assist you with your Paypal. If not a family member, then even someone here, if you have a trusted friend here. They can look into.

You either sent it to someone else, or you made a typo if you sent it to my Paypal, which would explain why I'm not seeing it. Check that. Compare the 2.

[Shoeless Moe]

Keith, another fake badge on Ebay if you are interested:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/23507570970...Bk9SR8SYvNqjYg

[NiceDocter]

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