Al mvp

[Frank A]

AL MVP!! I know Judge had a terrific year, but I can't quite see him as the MVP. My pick is Ohtani, Look at his stats. HITTING, BA 273, HR 34, RBI's 95, Hits 160, Base on balls 72. PITCHING, 15 wins, 9 loses, era 2.33, Earned runs allowed 43, K's 219 in 166 innings, games pitched, 28. I really can't see how anyone can compare even close to him. Your thoughts. Frank

[Tyruscobb]

I vote Judge. He was just 5 points from winning the triple crown, and broke the AL home run record.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I understand the case for Ohtani, but I don't understand how anyone cannot quite see Judge as MVP given the unreal year he has had. I think Judge will win easily due to the record.

[Kutcher55]

Judge. His team made the playoffs. Putting aside all the other reasons.

[oldjudge]

Otani is a great player on a losing team. How “valuable” was he. If the Angels didn’t have him they still would have missed the playoffs. In fact, they may have been better off without him as they would have had a worse record and thus a higher draft pick. Without Judge the Yankees almost surely don’t win the division and might not even make the playoffs. Also, just looking at absolute performance Judge’s WAR was 1.9 points higher than Otani’s. I think Judge will win almost unanimously.

[Shoeless Moe]

Judge no brainer.

Ohana also gets points taken off for resigning with that minor league franchise.

[G1911]

Judge will win easily and I would probably vote for him.

I am not convinced that he actually had more value than Ohtani though.

211 OPS+ vs a 145 OPS+ and being one of the best pitchers in baseball and an ERA+ of 172.

Is Judge really better than a star hitter who is also one of the best pitchers? I can see it either way, they have to be close.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I understand the case for Ohtani, but I don't understand how anyone cannot quite see Judge as MVP given the unreal year he has had. I think Judge will win easily due to the record.

+1 well said

[packs]

Ohtani is Ohtani. If your criteria for the MVP season in and season out is that Ohtani pitched and hit above average, then there's no need to talk about MVPs. You'll award it to him every year for having largely the same season.

You may also start advocating for Wes Ferrell to be enshrined too. The guy won 20 games 6 times and finished his career with a 280 average. He didn't win a single MVP during his career. Not even when he hit 347 and led the league in wins.

Judge hit 62 home runs. His OPS+ is 211. He scored 130 runs. His season was out of this world. He kept the Yankees atop the AL East almost single handedly at times. He is a lot more valuable to the Yankees than Ohtani was to the Angels, who would have had the same season with or without him.

[JollyElm]

I'm not an Ohtaniac, so all I know about him is what I pick up in passing, but if you took either one of his two halves, he would've been the club leader (probably?) in many of the categories on a majority of teams. Pitching - 15-9 with a 2.33 ERA, and batting - .273, 34 HR and 95 RBIs???? Frickin' yowza!!!!!!!!

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by G1911

Judge will win easily and I would probably vote for him.

I am not convinced that he actually had more value than Ohtani though.

211 OPS+ vs a 145 OPS+ and being one of the best pitchers in baseball and an ERA+ of 172.

Is Judge really better than a star hitter who is also one of the best pitchers? I can see it either way, they have to be close.

Agreed. Ohtani's numbers are unreal. He'll probably finish 2nd in Cy Young and would finish with MVP votes if he never threw an inning given those offensive numbers. But he did win last year, and I believe there's a slight bias against back-to-back awards. Judge's numbers are also certainly MVP worthy though.

It is interesting to imagine what the sentiment would be if those players put up the exact same numbers but played for each other's teams. I would expect the Yankees to still make the playoffs and likely win the division comfortably and also expect that the Angels would miss the playoffs, 62 HRs etc notwithstanding.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You're a GM. Which of these choices do you make?

1. Replace your average RF with Judge.
2. Replace your average DH with Ohtani, AND replace one of your OK starters with Ohtani.

I could be wrong but wouldn't most choose option 2?

[packs]

I think about Ohtani in terms of if he were to play with the Yankees and wonder if they'd commit to two-way play the same way the Angels have. I just can't imagine the Yankees wanting to risk their ace separating his shoulder stealing second base or something. They already went through that with Chien-Ming Wang and threw a big stink then about him having to hit. Wang was never the same after that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I think about Ohtani in terms of if he were to play with the Yankees and wonder if they'd commit to two-way play the same way the Angels have. I just can't imagine the Yankees wanting to risk their ace separating his shoulder stealing second base or something. They already went through that with Chien-Ming Wang and threw a big stink then about him having to hit. Wang was never the same after that.

If he had less power it would be an easy choice, but how do you just decide not to play a guy who is going to hit 30-40 HR for you?

[clydepepper]

It wouldn't be a bad time for the second set of co-MVPs.

On Judge: Not only did he break a 61-year old record, he carried the Yankee offense during some long draughts for the others. I seriously doubt that, without him, they would have made even these expanded playoffs.


On Ohtani: He's doing things that have NEVER been done before...that is, before last year. It's still amazing, and you could argue that this year was even better than last year, but, if he could ever be accused of carrying his team, it wasn't enough- they didn't come close to the playoffs.

Better season- I give Ohtani the edge.

MOST VALUABLE - Judge.



.

[packs]

Pitching is king though, especially in the play offs. I don't know how I'd feel if my ace got hit on the hand in the time of universal DH.

I just wonder if it fits in with the Yankees.

[mrreality68]

they both are great players who had amazing seasons.

Great facts presented on this thread for both players

To me it is all about winning and this year Judge carried the Yankees to an AL East title and the playoffs. Take him off and they probably miss the playoffs. Take Ohtani off the team and they are still bad and still miss it.

So the MVP is Judge

[D. Bergin]

Almost any other year in the AL, Ohtani wins it. This year, it goes to Judge.

I have a feeling both players are going to be fleeting talents with short primes. I hope I'm wrong.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

they both are great players who had amazing seasons.

Great facts presented on this thread for both players

To me it is all about winning and this year Judge carried the Yankees to an AL East title and the playoffs. Take him off and they probably miss the playoffs. Take Ohtani off the team and they are still bad and still miss it.

So the MVP is Judge

I disagree. I believe the Yankees win that division with or without Judge.

On the other hand, Ohtani won it last year with a team that wasn't close to sniffing the playoffs. Trout won it twice playing for the same lousy sub .500 team. If winning is a requirement, then they should say so and limit voting to those who play for winning teams or teams that make the playoffs.

[packs]

I don’t think winning is the only component every year the MVP is awarded. This year though I think it’s important to recognize that the Yankees are not leading the AL East without Judge. I don’t know if you watch every Yankees game like I do but there is no doubting Judge carried the team.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by packs

Pitching is king though, especially in the play offs. I don't know how I'd feel if my ace got hit on the hand in the time of universal DH.

I just wonder if it fits in with the Yankees.

...and Ohtani didn't make the playoffs...so pitching being 'king there' is mute.


Andre Dawson won the MVP on a last place team...are you telling me that his being there kept them from being worse?


If you're going to vote a player on a last place team MVP, then it should have been Tony Gwynn: led league with 218 H and .370 BA - had 119 RS; 13 triples; 56 SBs and finished in the top ten MLB wide in virtually all the new analytics...Andre wasn't on a single one.


once again, it's not most outstanding season, it's MOST VALUABLE PLAYER (to his team).

.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by packs

I don’t think winning is the only component every year the MVP is awarded. This year though I think it’s important to recognize that the Yankees are not leading the AL East without Judge. I don’t know if you watch every Yankees game like I do but there is no doubting Judge carried the team.

Well said.

They both are deserving and the beauty of baseball and this forum is the ball talk.

Keep it coming

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're a GM. Which of these choices do you make?

1. Replace your average RF with Judge.
2. Replace your average DH with Ohtani, AND replace one of your OK starters with Ohtani.

I could be wrong but wouldn't most choose option 2?

Exactly. 73% over the league pitcher + a 45% over the league batter is almost always going to be better than a 111% over the league batter.

I get that Ohtani is old news, giving the MVP to the same guy every year is boring, and he is not a New Yorker but I have a hard time seeing how he isn't the most valuable player again, and probably every year he performs like this. I'm fine with Judge getting it, I would probably vote for him because of the historicity of the season, but is he really more valuable? Almost certainly not.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I have a feeling both players are going to be fleeting talents with short primes. I hope I'm wrong.

Agreed. Neither seems likely to last.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Agreed. Neither seems likely to last.

It seems Judge is lasting though. He's had phenomenal seasons five years apart, and 2020 aside, has made 4 of 5 all star teams. Is your thinking that he's just too big and muscle bound and is inevitably going to sustain major injuries?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It seems Judge is lasting though. He's had phenomenal seasons five years apart, and 2020 aside, has made 4 of 5 all star teams. Is your thinking that he's just too big and muscle bound and is inevitably going to sustain major injuries?

Most big guys fall apart earlier than their counterparts. Phenomenal seasons several years apart is not a mark of excellent health, but great players having problems.

He missed 50 games in 2018 due to an injury that took longer than expected to heal.

He missed two months in 2019 to an oblique strain.

In 2020, he missed some of spring training to another injury, and then hurt his calf two seperate times to hit the DL for another 2 stints and miss half of the season.

He’s made 4 of 5 all star teams. And has missed significant playing time to injuries in 3 out of these last 5.

I don’t see why we would expect a big guy like this to age well. That is not an insult to Judge, the Yankees, or his fans, before someone gets offended

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Most big guys fall apart earlier than their counterparts. Phenomenal seasons several years apart is not a mark of excellent health, but great players having problems.

He missed 50 games in 2018 due to an injury that took longer than expected to heal.

He missed two months in 2019 to an oblique strain.

In 2020, he missed some of spring training to another injury, and then hurt his calf two seperate times to hit the DL for another 2 stints and miss half of the season.

He’s made 4 of 5 all star teams. And has missed significant playing time to injuries in 3 out of these last 5.

I don’t see why we would expect a big guy like this to age well. That is not an insult to Judge, the Yankees, or his fans, before someone gets offended

Good reasoning, hope you are wrong, I like the guy.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Good reasoning, hope you are wrong, I like the guy.

I hope so too, I root for almost everyone and he's clearly a great talent.

[campyfan39]

THIS
Would love to see him on a winning team. Great pitching stats on such a poor team. Judge will win but O is the better player.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're a GM. Which of these choices do you make?

1. Replace your average RF with Judge.
2. Replace your average DH with Ohtani, AND replace one of your OK starters with Ohtani.

I could be wrong but wouldn't most choose option 2?

[bdk1976]

Judge will win. If they swapped teams with all else being equal, Ohtani would win.

Playing for the Yankees is like being in an souped-up affirmative action program for awards and recognition. I'm still waiting for any kind of remotely convincing argument as to Phil Rizzuto's HOF qualifications and have been for nearly 30 years now. It's so depressing it's not even a fun discussion to have.

Spare the 'Judge almost won the triple crown" BS. Ted Williams actually did win the triple crown - TWICE - and lost MVP to a Yankee BOTH times, and I don't recall either of those guys being a top notch starting pitcher while also delivering at the plate.

[smokinjoe]

Judge is the MVP, it should actually be his sevcond but was handed to the cheater Altuve. It is the Most VALUABLE Player award, not most talented player award. Judge has for long stretches throughout this season carried the Yankees. The Yankees would not be where they are without him. Ohtani is a great player but the Angels would not be that much of a different team with or without him, so is his presence on the team actually valuable?

WAR is not a stat but an interpretation of stats, and by all measures Judge had the better season. Ohtani had advantage of accumulating counting stats both hitting and pitching. Judge still beat him in the WAR department by quite a bit.

Personally if I were to build a team I would start with Judge before Ohtani. While being able to use one player to fill two positions and have them be above average in both would be of great benefit, it also means that with an injury you have to replace him with two players, also if slumping would double the impact to the team.

MVP = Judge
Athlete of the Year = Ohtani

[packs]

Originally Posted by bdk1976

Judge will win. If they swapped teams with all else being equal, Ohtani would win.

Playing for the Yankees is like being in an souped-up affirmative action program for awards and recognition. I'm still waiting for any kind of remotely convincing argument as to Phil Rizzuto's HOF qualifications and have been for nearly 30 years now. It's so depressing it's not even a fun discussion to have.

Spare the 'Judge almost won the triple crown" BS. Ted Williams actually did win the triple crown - TWICE - and lost MVP to a Yankee BOTH times, and I don't recall either of those guys being a top notch starting pitcher while also delivering at the plate.

The last Yankee to win the MVP was A-rod in 2007. For the last 15 years not one Yankee has won MVP. A-rod also won in 2005 but before that it was Mattingly in 1985.

In the last 36 years a Yankee has won the MVP 2 times and it was the same Yankee.

[D. Bergin]

Good article at The Ringer about the Judge vs. Ohtani debate:

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2022/1...-shohei-ohtani

[steve B]

I saw an interesting and brief article about Ohtani being the first player to have his stats qualify in both hitting and pitching. Enough plate appearances AND enough innings pitched.

That's got to count for something, but I do think Judge will win it. Hopefully the vote is at least close.