GAI Crossover?

[Snapolit1]

I've never bought a GAI graded card. Has anyone successfully crossed over a significant/costly GAI card to PSA? Wonder if anyone has stories good or bad. Other than seller reputation, any other factors you would look to?

Obviously would suck big time to try to cross over a nice card for real $$$ only to get dinged. I did see a line if one ebay listing about how take no responsibility for crossovers to other grading companies which seems only fair.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I've never bought a GAI graded card. Has anyone successfully crossed over a significant/costly GAI card to PSA? Wonder if anyone has stories good or bad. Other than seller reputation, any other factors you would look to?

Obviously would suck big time to try to cross over a nice card for real $$$ only to get dinged. I did see a line if one ebay listing about how take no responsibility for crossovers to other grading companies which seems only fair.

Very low success rate for everyone I know who has tried. Assuming you, or someone you know, has a good enough eye, you are better off breaking it out and submitting it raw. I doubt PSA has ever crossed one but have heard that SGC has but usually the card ends up in a lower holder.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Early GAI was reasonably legit, from what I have heard later GAI (even before it was resurrected with a new flip etc.) was a favor factory. Other than cards designated first graded, I don't know how to tell the difference.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Early GAI was reasonably legit, from what I have heard later GAI (even before it was resurrected with a new flip etc.) was a favor factory. Other than cards designated first graded, I don't know how to tell the difference.

Agree with Peter - originally they were good, then after a while it became apparent they were giving numerical grades to somewhat obviously trimmed cards. That's not to say that other "reputable" TPGs didn't encapsulate trimmed cards with a numerical grade, it's just that there seemed to a higher percentage of GAI cards like that I'm not aware of any reprints being encapsulated by GAI.

Like the saying goes - buy the card, not the holder. It could be a totally legit card and one of the other TPGs could opine it is altered, even though it's legit.

[marzoumanian]

On my website I have a blog on this subject that you might find of interest. I wrote it on 11/1/20. You can visit www.markearzoumanian.com. and then click on the "Love of the Hobby" section. It's about my firsthand experiences converting GAIs to PSAs.
NEVER submit a slabbed GAI to PSA. I broke all my GAIs out before submitting. My experience was that while there were a few smooth transitions (i.e. GAI 4 to PSA 4), most PSA grades came back LOWER than the GAIs. Good luck.

[rand1com]

GAI was very legitimate at the beginning. After all, their principals, Steve Rocchi and Mike Baker had been with PSA from the early days and left to form their own company.

Mike Baker was PSA's most knowledgeable grader during his time there who probably set up the standards they used for grading so he took his expertise to GAI. Any of the "1st Graded" flips on a particular card is very likely to have been accurately graded based on the standards at that time around 2005 or so.

However, even those would not likely cross over at the same grade today with PSA or SGC.

By the same token, they are very unlikely to be trimmed or tampered with as I'm sure Baker himself probably looked at each card with this designation.

I know of no way to tell when they lost their way on card grading but there was certainly a year or two that they were legitimate. They were the corporate sponsor of the National one year shortly after the company was formed.

On autograph authentication, it was when Mike Guiterrez left the company that they lost their way. Basically all autographs submitted after his time are suspect although there are good examples out there as well.

On pack grading, it was when their expert Mark Murphy aka "The Baseball Card Kid" left. There are serial numbers that can be referenced on the packs to determine when they were graded and packs graded by Murphy will normally cross over at possibly a grade lower.

The advise given about cracking it out and resubmitting raw to me is not the way to go unless you have had very good success submitting cards and getting high grades back. Those usually go to the auction houses and high volume dealers who submit thousands of cards per year.

I would rather have a GAI graded 8 than a PSA 5 no matter the card. It may only bring PSA 7 money in an GAI 8 holder but it will bring well above 5 money.

Just my opinion of course.

[Snapolit1]

Thanks guys. All really helpful.

Here’s the eBay that actually caught my eye. Not acting on but was just
curious. Looks very sharp to me.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-ROD-CA...-127632-2357-0

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by rand1com

GAI was very legitimate at the beginning. After all, their principals, Steve Rocchi and Mike Baker had been with PSA from the early days and left to form their own company.

Mike Baker was PSA's most knowledgeable grader during his time there who probably set up the standards they used for grading so he took his expertise to GAI. Any of the "1st Graded" flips on a particular card is very likely to have been accurately graded based on the standards at that time around 2005 or so.

However, even those would not likely cross over at the same grade today with PSA or SGC.

By the same token, they are very unlikely to be trimmed or tampered with as I'm sure Baker himself probably looked at each card with this designation.

I know of no way to tell when they lost their way on card grading but there was certainly a year or two that they were legitimate. They were the corporate sponsor of the National one year shortly after the company was formed.

On autograph authentication, it was when Mike Guiterrez left the company that they lost their way. Basically all autographs submitted after his time are suspect although there are good examples out there as well.

On pack grading, it was when their expert Mark Murphy aka "The Baseball Card Kid" left. There are serial numbers that can be referenced on the packs to determine when they were graded and packs graded by Murphy will normally cross over at possibly a grade lower.

The advise given about cracking it out and resubmitting raw to me is not the way to go unless you have had very good success submitting cards and getting high grades back. Those usually go to the auction houses and high volume dealers who submit thousands of cards per year.

I would rather have a GAI graded 8 than a PSA 5 no matter the card. It may only bring PSA 7 money in an GAI 8 holder but it will bring well above 5 money.

Just my opinion of course.

Gotta disagree with this. Don't think GAI 8 would be close to PSA 5 money. I think most assume GAI = trimmed and would give you PSA auth money

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Thanks guys. All really helpful.

Here’s the eBay that actually caught my eye. Not acting on but was just
curious. Looks very sharp to me.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-ROD-CA...-127632-2357-0

Could be the scan but that card is not rectangular, is it?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Could be the scan but that card is not rectangular, is it?

Looks so to me, but admittedly not the greatest at these sorts of things.

[nolemmings]

I had good luck with the two cards I crossed over, both rookies of some value:


The Bancroft (no longer mine) crossed to 80 and the Faber to 86

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Thanks guys. All really helpful.

Here’s the eBay that actually caught my eye. Not acting on but was just
curious. Looks very sharp to me.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-ROD-CA...-127632-2357-0

I see bat wings. That always raises red flags for me.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Thanks guys. All really helpful.

Here’s the eBay that actually caught my eye. Not acting on but was just
curious. Looks very sharp to me.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-ROD-CA...-127632-2357-0

The cell phone pic is just awful. I am not exactly sure what shape that is and two corners look a bit off...to me. A properly scanned version of the card might provide a more favorable assessment but as I tell everyone, just buy the card in the condition or holder that ya want it in and call it a day.

Most GAI cards, like this one, have likely been seen at least once by PSA and SGC and there is a good reason it remains in the GAI holder at this time.

And as was mentioned, early GAI were spot on in their grades but being able to distinguish those is nearly impossible. First Graded designation is not 100% reliable. At least I would not rely on it.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Could be the scan but that card is not rectangular, is it?

That's what I was thinking. May just be a bad photo, but the top boarder looks slanted down from right to left.

[Natedog]

I had a couple of T206's in GAI holders that I wanted to cross over a few years ago. I sent one to PSA and one to SGC. The SGC crossed over with the same grade, the PSA 1/2 grade lower, but still a success in my opinion. Of course, this was before SGC and PSA started giving cards 2's and 3's that look like 5's and 6's!

Also, I did not crack them out before submitting, but I heard the success rate is much better if you do.

[ezez420]

I was going to buy this card years ago... A bit late to party. The former owner of this card knows his stuff so there was a reason still in holder.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe there is a big print dot on back. Referring to Carew.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Snapolit1]

As Johnny said to Ed McMahon many nights, "you sir are correct."

Originally Posted by ezez420

I was going to buy this card years ago... A bit late to party. The former owner of this card knows his stuff so there was a reason still in holder.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe there is a big print dot on back. Referring to Carew.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mrreality68]

I am currently not looking to buy any cards with the GAI holder. Especially with the changes/transitions that have been mentioned in this forum.

Alot of nice cards and glad many graded out similar but to me not enough of a Rep with them one way or the other

[Natedog]

This beauty has been listed for quite some time:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/373700675910

I think the only thing keeping someone from buying is the fact it's in a GAI holder. Great looking card, though. Outta my price range, but I can dream!

[Tere1071]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Early GAI was reasonably legit, from what I have heard later GAI (even before it was resurrected with a new flip etc.) was a favor factory. Other than cards designated first graded, I don't know how to tell the difference.

Peter, or anyone else, I have the following three GAI cards in my 53 Bowman Color set:

#44 Berra, Bauer, & Mantle i.d. # 10145068, rated 6 Ex-MT
#120 Marlin Stuart i.d. #10027952, rated 4.5 VG-EX+, 1st graded
#129 Russ Meyer i.d. # 10227193, rated 6.5 Ex-MT+, 1st graded

I purchased these before I found out about GAI's reputation. I measured them and they seem okay. From other collectors who have noticed trimmed cards in GAI holders, did this problem begin in this span of slabbed cards or after? If anyone is familiar with the sequence of GAI's grading, I'd like to know the approximate years when these cards were graded. I'm not looking to get rid of them or break them out, this is just out of curiosity.

Phil aka Tere1071

[glchen]

I crossed this card over from GAI to SGC. (PSA refused the crossover saying the card was too fragile for them to holder.) Even given the crazy rough condition, I wish I still had it. Regrets, I have a few ...

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by rand1com

GAI was very legitimate at the beginning. After all, their principals, Steve Rocchi and Mike Baker had been with PSA from the early days and left to form their own company.

Mike Baker was PSA's most knowledgeable grader during his time there who probably set up the standards they used for grading so he took his expertise to GAI. Any of the "1st Graded" flips on a particular card is very likely to have been accurately graded based on the standards at that time around 2005 or so.

However, even those would not likely cross over at the same grade today with PSA or SGC.

By the same token, they are very unlikely to be trimmed or tampered with as I'm sure Baker himself probably looked at each card with this designation.

I know of no way to tell when they lost their way on card grading but there was certainly a year or two that they were legitimate. They were the corporate sponsor of the National one year shortly after the company was formed.

On autograph authentication, it was when Mike Guiterrez left the company that they lost their way. Basically all autographs submitted after his time are suspect although there are good examples out there as well.

On pack grading, it was when their expert Mark Murphy aka "The Baseball Card Kid" left. There are serial numbers that can be referenced on the packs to determine when they were graded and packs graded by Murphy will normally cross over at possibly a grade lower.

The advise given about cracking it out and resubmitting raw to me is not the way to go unless you have had very good success submitting cards and getting high grades back. Those usually go to the auction houses and high volume dealers who submit thousands of cards per year.

I would rather have a GAI graded 8 than a PSA 5 no matter the card. It may only bring PSA 7 money in an GAI 8 holder but it will bring well above 5 money.

Just my opinion of course.

I believe Mike has some kind of new gig whereby he will give the Baker Gold Stamp of Approval to cards already graded that he, I guess, considers exceptional. I haven't seen any such cards in the marketplace, so don't know what it looks like. what

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by rand1com

Any of the "1st Graded" flips on a particular card is very likely to have been accurately graded based on the standards at that time around 2005 or so.

However, even those would not likely cross over at the same grade today with PSA or SGC.

By the same token, they are very unlikely to be trimmed or tampered with as I'm sure Baker himself probably looked at each card with this designation.

This would not be correct. 1st Graded flips referred to the first time the specific card graded in that specific grade. They did not control when cards came in for grading so they were issuing 1st Graded on flips for the entire time they were in business.

Originally Posted by rand1com

The advise given about cracking it out and resubmitting raw to me is not the way to go unless you have had very good success submitting cards and getting high grades back. Those usually go to the auction houses and high volume dealers who submit thousands of cards per year.

I would rather have a GAI graded 8 than a PSA 5 no matter the card. It may only bring PSA 7 money in an GAI 8 holder but it will bring well above 5 money.

Cracking out really is the only way to go, as I stated above, if Steve has a great eye or someone he knows has a great eye, and can assess if the card is 100% not altered. The grade is subjective however today a PSA 5 would likely sell for more than a GAI 8. I have not seen a GAI 8 sell for PSA 7 money in a very long time. It is entirely possible that none ever have.

As much time as has passed since cards could be submitted to GAI any that are still on the market we have to assume are in those holders, still, for a very good reason. I certainly do not know a single person in the hobby who would leave a card in a GAI holder if they knew the card was 100% good.

[RL]

Originally Posted by glchen

I crossed this card over from GAI to SGC. (PSA refused the crossover saying the card was too fragile for them to holder.) Even given the crazy rough condition, I wish I still had it. Regrets, I have a few ...

how did it change from a 1915 card to a 1916 card?

[BabyRuth]

It's a GAI Christmas!!! Had all these graded years ago when Mike Baker was there.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Could be the scan but that card is not rectangular, is it?

crooked camera angle?

[Tere1071]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

This would not be correct. 1st Graded flips referred to the first time the specific card graded in that specific grade. They did not control when cards came in for grading so they were issuing 1st Graded on flips for the entire time they were in business.



Cracking out really is the only way to go, as I stated above, if Steve has a great eye or someone he knows has a great eye, and can assess if the card is 100% not altered. The grade is subjective however today a PSA 5 would likely sell for more than a GAI 8. I have not seen a GAI 8 sell for PSA 7 money in a very long time. It is entirely possible that none ever have.

As much time as has passed since cards could be submitted to GAI any that are still on the market we have to assume are in those holders, still, for a very good reason. I certainly do not know a single person in the hobby who would leave a card in a GAI holder if they knew the card was 100% good.

In my case, there are 60 cards that are slabbed in my 53 Bowman Color set with three of those in a GAI holder. The slabbed cards I own were purchased through eBay and for the moment they're fine to remain in a slab as I'm not planning to do anything else but to enjoy what I have. On the other hand, would I purchase a major star in a GAI holder, probably not with what I've learned thus far.

Phil aka Tere1071

[marzoumanian]

The word that comes to mind, Phil, is tainted. As others have already mentioned, GAI started out great with men of integrity. What I was told years ago was that as the company grew, these men had no choice but to hire more people to grade cards and unfortunately these people started giving high grades to cards of questionable integrity (doctored). If you ever do decide to sell your 1953 Bowman color set, I would recommend AT THAT TIME to crack out the GAI cards and get them graded by the TPG you used for the other cards. I believe that TPG uniformity will make a difference in the final price you get. Look at it from the point of view of the buyer. Most importantly, make certain that you have a plan for this set. My two cents. Peace.

[Tere1071]

Originally Posted by marzoumanian

The word that comes to mind, Phil, is tainted. As others have already mentioned, GAI started out great with men of integrity. What I was told years ago was that as the company grew, these men had no choice but to hire more people to grade cards and unfortunately these people started giving high grades to cards of questionable integrity (doctored). If you ever do decide to sell your 1953 Bowman color set, I would recommend AT THAT TIME to crack out the GAI cards and get them graded by the TPG you used for the other cards. I believe that TPG uniformity will make a difference in the final price you get. Look at it from the point of view of the buyer. Most importantly, make certain that you have a plan for this set. My two cents. Peace.

Thank you for the feedback. I've never submitted a card for grading; what I have graded in my set someone else had done previously. The majority of my graded cards are PSA and SGC with some BVG and range mostly from 4 to 6, a decent mid-grade set. I still prefer raw cards over slabs and I'm tempted to "free them" with the exception of the Mantle (PSA 4-newer grade), Musial (SGC 4.5), and Berra (SGC 5-both newer grades), to ward off any accusations of having fake or altered cards.

I don't have a plan as I want to enjoy just having them, like when I was between the ages of 12-15 when there was magic in just having something old. The GAI cards would be returned to raw and placed in the rest of my set when the time comes, which hopefully remains far in the future.

Phil aka Tere1071

[glchen]

Originally Posted by RL

how did it change from a 1915 card to a 1916 card?

I think at certain points, folks thought that the M101-5 set had multiple print runs with the first print run some time in 1915. Here are a couple of threads on this topic: Link 1, Link 2

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think at certain points, folks thought that the M101-5 set had multiple print runs with the first print run some time in 1915. Here are a couple of threads on this topic: Link 1, Link 2

Great links and great information in them

Thanks

[RL]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think at certain points, folks thought that the M101-5 set had multiple print runs with the first print run some time in 1915. Here are a couple of threads on this topic: Link 1, Link 2

thank you for that information...quite interesting

[Marslife]

here is one of my crossovers, I cracked it out of the GAI holder and submitted it raw to SGC. SGC says it has been trimmed as it is thinner than other T206 cards :-(

DSCF2020.jpg

DSCF2189.jpg

DSCF2022.jpg

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Marslife

here is one of my crossovers, I cracked it out of the GAI holder and submitted it raw to SGC. SGC says it has been trimmed as it is thinner than other T206 cards :-(

Did SGC seriously call a T206 AB trimmed solely because it's thinner (narrower, I presume) than other T206 cards?

Where's the animated "facepalm emoji" button?

[jp1216]

Like this....

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by jp1216

like this....

lol

[Marslife]

More appropriate would be a "Blind Grader" emoji :-)

I pressed the issues of course, generic response:

"When our graders determine a card to bear evidence of trimming or to have been miscut, they designate the card an "A" for "Authentic", as those cards are not eligible for numeric grades. The definition of "miscut" is contextual and varies between issues. Our graders are the foremost experts in the industry and we stand behind their determinations."

If you need anything else please let me know


Brent Martin
Collector Support

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Marslife

More appropriate would be a "Blind Grader" emoji :-)

I pressed the issues of course, generic response:

"When our graders determine a card to bear evidence of trimming or to have been miscut, they designate the card an "A" for "Authentic", as those cards are not eligible for numeric grades. The definition of "miscut" is contextual and varies between issues. Our graders are the foremost experts in the industry and we stand behind their determinations."

If you need anything else please let me know


Brent Martin
Collector Support

Quite disheartening to hear this about SGC. It seems like their former expertise in pre-war has all but disappeared.

[aro13]

I get that GAI and ASA both had terrible reputations in terms of grading altered cards. However, where are all those cards now that PSA and SGC wouldn't crossover or grade? They are not all in authentic holders. I would hesitate to guess most found their way into PSA and SGC holders eventually if submitted by the right person at the right time.