Brooklyn Dodger Welcome Banners Market Analysis

[Dave Grob]

Recently I acquired an original Barney Stein photo of the 1947 Brooklyn Borough Hall welcome of the Dodgers. The photo appealed to me because it was taken by Stein (the official photographer of the Brooklyn Dodgers) and actually featured his own annotations for the camera and settings. It also is a wonderful contextual reference for one of my favorite Brooklyn Dodger items; my 1947 Welcome National League Champions Banner.

One of the things I have been fascinated with over the years is both how rare these are and how they have been described. These banners (1947-1956) have been offered in various auctions over the years, but in many instances, it appears that what we are seeing has been just the same banners being offered over and over again. I know of one long time dealer who described them as being “hung from light posts” throughout Brooklyn to honor the Dodgers. This description suggests they were fairly common items. Period images don’t support this and neither does my data on the individual offerings from year to year. In culling old auction data, I tried to determine the a likely surviving population by identifying examples that were sold more than once. Many of these banners have unique condition characteristics that enable them to be distinguished from other offerings in a given year (stains, writing, tears, autographs, etc). From what I have been able to gather, there appear to have been thirteen (13) of these banners from all years that have survived and offered publicly.

1947: 3
1949: 3 (I have also seen one example of a smaller 30” square version)
1952: 1
1953: 1
1955: 4
1956: 1

13 is a much smaller number than the approximately 27 times I have seen these various banners offered for sale publicly. I offer this information not to pump up the price of my banner (it is NOT for sale), but to highlight something that is sorely missing in many facets of the memorabilia market, and that is true market analysis. Being able to look through catalogs or various on-line sites for “prices realized” is nice to do, but that is not “market analysis.” Unless you study this data, you risk getting a false read on what is likely a more accurate number and this has an impact on pricing as folks tend to look at only what “the last one sold for.” When the same items are frequently offered and resold, prices realized tend to stay steady and have a tendency to stagnate as there is the notion that these are not rare as I see them all the time.

In addition to this, market analysis needs to include some sense about potential availability. Brooklyn Dodger “Super Collector” Gary Cypres has the only complete collection of these banners that I know of. Gary remarked in article that appeared on line through ESPN on 11 October, 2015 "I'm going to put the Dodger collection in a trust," he said. "The Dodger collection cannot be replaced. There are no duplicates of what I have. Gloves, balls and bats can be replaced, but the history of a franchise which took me 25 years to assemble, that's impossible to replace. That's a treasure, and I don't want my kids to blow the treasure. It's my love, and even after death, I'm going to be looking down saying, 'No, no, no,' if they want to get rid of it. You can't do that. It's history, and that means something to me." What this tells me that for each year (1947,1949,1952,1953,1955, and 1956), you should probably reduce the population of potentially available Brooklyn Dodger Welcome banners by one per year as it does not seem likely to plan on acquiring one or all from this collection, or not at least anytime soon.

Long way around the barn on this one, but for me, market analysis does not equal prices realized. Market Analysis is:

-Knowing and Understanding what the artifact actually is.
-Knowing and Understanding the known or likely population.
-Knowing and Understanding the known or likely available population.

You then take this data and look at prices realized and make a value assessment as to if the item in question is under or overvalued based on likely or anticipated collector interest or demand.

Dave Grob
davegrob1@aol.com

[perezfan]

I sold a 1947 Banner (privately) about 5 years ago. One of those sales I truly regret, as I will likely never have the opportunity to acquire another. Jackie's rookie season, no less...

I was trying to rationalize wall space, and the darn thing just wouldn't fit within the space I had at the time. Wish to God I had a re-do, and kept it.

Oh well... live and learn.

[JayZim13]

Dave,
Great analysis.
I have had 2 banners from 1949. I was able to purchase them from a player's family many years ago. I was also given the picture of Borough Hall where the banners came from. I still own one. Although it is large and not easy to display I still regard it as one of the best pieces I have collected thru the years. The actual large ones that were displayed are quite rare.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Dave Grob

Recently I acquired an original Barney Stein photo of the 1947 Brooklyn Borough Hall welcome of the Dodgers. The photo appealed to me because it was taken by Stein (the official photographer of the Brooklyn Dodgers) and actually featured his own annotations for the camera and settings. It also is a wonderful contextual reference for one of my favorite Brooklyn Dodger items; my 1947 Welcome National League Champions Banner.

One of the things I have been fascinated with over the years is both how rare these are and how they have been described. These banners (1947-1956) have been offered in various auctions over the years, but in many instances, it appears that what we are seeing has been just the same banners being offered over and over again. I know of one long time dealer who described them as being “hung from light posts” throughout Brooklyn to honor the Dodgers. This description suggests they were fairly common items. Period images don’t support this and neither does my data on the individual offerings from year to year. In culling old auction data, I tried to determine the a likely surviving population by identifying examples that were sold more than once. Many of these banners have unique condition characteristics that enable them to be distinguished from other offerings in a given year (stains, writing, tears, autographs, etc). From what I have been able to gather, there appear to have been thirteen (13) of these banners from all years that have survived and offered publicly.

1947: 3
1949: 3 (I have also seen one example of a smaller 30” square version)
1952: 1
1953: 1
1955: 4
1956: 1

13 is a much smaller number than the approximately 27 times I have seen these various banners offered for sale publicly. I offer this information not to pump up the price of my banner (it is NOT for sale), but to highlight something that is sorely missing in many facets of the memorabilia market, and that is true market analysis. Being able to look through catalogs or various on-line sites for “prices realized” is nice to do, but that is not “market analysis.” Unless you study this data, you risk getting a false read on what is likely a more accurate number and this has an impact on pricing as folks tend to look at only what “the last one sold for.” When the same items are frequently offered and resold, prices realized tend to stay steady and have a tendency to stagnate as there is the notion that these are not rare as I see them all the time.

In addition to this, market analysis needs to include some sense about potential availability. Brooklyn Dodger “Super Collector” Gary Cypres has the only complete collection of these banners that I know of. Gary remarked in article that appeared on line through ESPN on 11 October, 2015 "I'm going to put the Dodger collection in a trust," he said. "The Dodger collection cannot be replaced. There are no duplicates of what I have. Gloves, balls and bats can be replaced, but the history of a franchise which took me 25 years to assemble, that's impossible to replace. That's a treasure, and I don't want my kids to blow the treasure. It's my love, and even after death, I'm going to be looking down saying, 'No, no, no,' if they want to get rid of it. You can't do that. It's history, and that means something to me." What this tells me that for each year (1947,1949,1952,1953,1955, and 1956), you should probably reduce the population of potentially available Brooklyn Dodger Welcome banners by one per year as it does not seem likely to plan on acquiring one or all from this collection, or not at least anytime soon.

Long way around the barn on this one, but for me, market analysis does not equal prices realized. Market Analysis is:

-Knowing and Understanding what the artifact actually is.
-Knowing and Understanding the known or likely population.
-Knowing and Understanding the known or likely available population.

You then take this data and look at prices realized and make a value assessment as to if the item in question is under or overvalued based on likely or anticipated collector interest or demand.

Dave Grob
davegrob1@aol.com

Excellent analysis, Dave! Thanks for sharing it.

[Dave Grob]

Scott: Your welcome. Glad you enjoyed it.

Jay: Great banner and photo. Thanks for sharing.

For me, part of market analysis also includes the comparative assessment of related items and artifacts. I don't collect cards, and have not since I was a kid, but I have always felt that certain items are way undervalued when compared to cards. For me, these banners fall into that category. A 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson (PSA 8) is now a six figure card. By the PSA Pop Report, there are 48 of these in an 8 or better. If you add like graded cards from SGC to the mix, this adds another 25 to the mix. So here we have over 70 examples of an retail collectable with no real contextual connection to the player (Jackie Robinson), other than it is a commercially produced product that features his likeness.

I am not saying the 1947 Dodgers Banner will ever command the money that high grade 1948 Robinson Rookie Leaf will, but then again, I think it should objectively be valued at more than 3-4% of the value of the card.

Of course there is some bias here as I am not a card guy, but I think if the banner and Stein photo were displayed next to the Robinson rookie card, the banner and photo would garner far more interest and attention.

Dave Grob

[71buc]

Dave awsome analysis and a fun read. I too believe such items are so much more meaningful and rare than cards. I have been looking for one of these for 15 years. When they do appear it's a rarity and I seem to only discover the listing the day after it closes.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Dave Grob

For me, part of market analysis also includes the comparative assessment of related items and artifacts. I don't collect cards, and have not since I was a kid, but I have always felt that certain items are way undervalued when compared to cards. For me, these banners fall into that category. A 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson (PSA 8) is now a six figure card. By the PSA Pop Report, there are 48 of these in an 8 or better. If you add like graded cards from SGC to the mix, this adds another 25 to the mix. So here we have over 70 examples of an retail collectable with no real contextual connection to the player (Jackie Robinson), other than it is a commercially produced product that features his likeness.

I am not saying the 1947 Dodgers Banner will ever command the money that high grade 1948 Robinson Rookie Leaf will, but then again, I think it should objectively be valued at more than 3-4% of the value of the card.

Of course there is some bias here as I am not a card guy, but I think if the banner and Stein photo were displayed next to the Robinson rookie card, the banner and photo would garner far more interest and attention.

Dave Grob

Couldn't agree more! We non-card, memorabilia guys GET IT

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Couldn't agree more! We non-card, memorabilia guys GET IT

I'm just glad that the real world doesn't agree (I personally couldn't agree more) because that's why I can afford all the non-card stuff that I like to collect.

Doug

[Exhibitman]

There are lots of memorabilia items that 'should' sell for more but don't. Just not as popular and demand drives this stuff.

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by Dave Grob

Recently I acquired an original Barney Stein photo of the 1947 Brooklyn Borough Hall welcome of the Dodgers. The photo appealed to me because it was taken by Stein (the official photographer of the Brooklyn Dodgers) and actually featured his own annotations for the camera and settings. It also is a wonderful contextual reference for one of my favorite Brooklyn Dodger items; my 1947 Welcome National League Champions Banner.

One of the things I have been fascinated with over the years is both how rare these are and how they have been described. These banners (1947-1956) have been offered in various auctions over the years, but in many instances, it appears that what we are seeing has been just the same banners being offered over and over again. I know of one long time dealer who described them as being “hung from light posts” throughout Brooklyn to honor the Dodgers. This description suggests they were fairly common items. Period images don’t support this and neither does my data on the individual offerings from year to year. In culling old auction data, I tried to determine the a likely surviving population by identifying examples that were sold more than once. Many of these banners have unique condition characteristics that enable them to be distinguished from other offerings in a given year (stains, writing, tears, autographs, etc). From what I have been able to gather, there appear to have been thirteen (13) of these banners from all years that have survived and offered publicly.

1947: 3
1949: 3 (I have also seen one example of a smaller 30” square version)
1952: 1
1953: 1
1955: 4
1956: 1

13 is a much smaller number than the approximately 27 times I have seen these various banners offered for sale publicly. I offer this information not to pump up the price of my banner (it is NOT for sale), but to highlight something that is sorely missing in many facets of the memorabilia market, and that is true market analysis. Being able to look through catalogs or various on-line sites for “prices realized” is nice to do, but that is not “market analysis.” Unless you study this data, you risk getting a false read on what is likely a more accurate number and this has an impact on pricing as folks tend to look at only what “the last one sold for.” When the same items are frequently offered and resold, prices realized tend to stay steady and have a tendency to stagnate as there is the notion that these are not rare as I see them all the time.

In addition to this, market analysis needs to include some sense about potential availability. Brooklyn Dodger “Super Collector” Gary Cypres has the only complete collection of these banners that I know of. Gary remarked in article that appeared on line through ESPN on 11 October, 2015 "I'm going to put the Dodger collection in a trust," he said. "The Dodger collection cannot be replaced. There are no duplicates of what I have. Gloves, balls and bats can be replaced, but the history of a franchise which took me 25 years to assemble, that's impossible to replace. That's a treasure, and I don't want my kids to blow the treasure. It's my love, and even after death, I'm going to be looking down saying, 'No, no, no,' if they want to get rid of it. You can't do that. It's history, and that means something to me." What this tells me that for each year (1947,1949,1952,1953,1955, and 1956), you should probably reduce the population of potentially available Brooklyn Dodger Welcome banners by one per year as it does not seem likely to plan on acquiring one or all from this collection, or not at least anytime soon.

Long way around the barn on this one, but for me, market analysis does not equal prices realized. Market Analysis is:

-Knowing and Understanding what the artifact actually is.
-Knowing and Understanding the known or likely population.
-Knowing and Understanding the known or likely available population.

You then take this data and look at prices realized and make a value assessment as to if the item in question is under or overvalued based on likely or anticipated collector interest or demand.

Dave Grob
davegrob1@aol.com

Dave, thought I would revive this old thread with a little more info. I have spoken to Gary Cypres about these banners, and he doesn't actually have one from 1952. In fact, he didn't think they existed until I showed him a picture of former Dodger Bobby Morgan holding one. I have never seen one for sale myself.

I did manage to pick up a 1953 banner that was brand new to the hobby, having been stored in a chest since the 50's. There are a couple of interesting things about how it was made. It appears to have been made out of a darker fabric than the other years, all of which were bright white except the 1956 version which is dark blue. But the most interesting thing is that a close examination of the number "3" in the "53" shows a "1" beneath it. So this banner was made in anticipation of the Dodgers winning the pennant in 51, and then reused as a "53" 2 years after the Giants stole the pennant in the playoffs. Lelands did have a 1951 banner in its auction a few years, the only one of those I have seen as well.

Dave, that 1947 picture is awesome. Any chance I can get a copy to go along with my 1947 banner?

Rick

IMG_2320 reduced by 50.jpg IMG_2321.jpg

[mrreality68]

These are amazing and very cool pieces of history.

Must be great to have one of these in a collection or to have had one.