What Am I?

[sb1]

It's time to play the game of what am I again for a particular issue that I have had since roughly 2006, an unknown issuer group of Pittsburgh Pirates images that were cut from a larger piece. All on stock roughly the same as postcard stock.

To date no one has ever seen another or any idea what they come from. I now have a new piece to the puzzle, which does seem to date them as contemporary to the circa 1910 era. After 15 years I have obtained another, Fred Clarke which has been cut off another of the larger unknown items, and had the bottom caption area cut off. It came in a small group or RPPC's and a few lithograph items from Armstrong county, PA all of which dated in the 1900's-1910's.

The piece has several unusual attributes....It has a 2 cent which may have been from 1917-1919 when the postcard rate was raised during WWI. It has the period correct flag cancel on the stamp, however the stamp is not tied to the piece by the postmark which is odd, as the rest of the cancel should show. It also has Fred Clark written on it in fountain pen, in the same ink as the addressee is written, right down to the steel tip marks made by the pen. It appears to have been addressed after the piece was creased and the paper stock broken, as the inks has bled where the pen tip crossed the broken stock. Oddly the Fred Clark looks 95% like the way Fred Clarke signed his name, but has a few subtle differences. The addressee is the wife of a very well known Armstrong county businessman William P. Lauster.

The piece while answering very few questions about the origin or issuer of the Pirates pieces, raises a laundry list of questions on it's own.

Was it really mailed? If not why paste a used 2 cent stamp on it? Why write Fred Clark(e)'s name on it? Did Fred Clark(e) actually write his name on it? perhaps his early signatures were slightly different? How many people could have had any idea what Fred Clarke's signature even looked like in that era? IF it's a forgery of sorts, why? I paid not all that much for the entire group,, none of which was placed on the signature being real, from a picker found at an estate sale?

Anyone have any ideas or thoughts to the origin of the Pirates issue or the later homemade "postcard"?

I added an image of both Clarke's for comparison.

Scott

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Could it just be a sad case of someone taking an interesting Fred Clarke piece and trying to gussy it up to make a killing? The cancelled stamp being added and the writing over existing creases suggest that to me.

[Throttlesteer]

The signature is off too. I think you may be right about gussying it up.

[sb1]

They had no idea what it was, and expressed that they had looked up the signature and did not see a match just similarities. I paid about $10 per postcard, about the going rate for generic RPPC's.

I am disappointed the stamp and cancel are not tied to the piece for an exact date, but still believe the piece has been with the others for decades. Especially since the Clark item is dressed to a known member of the communities wife.. why not make address it to him for a ploy as he is a googleable(made that word up).

All that being said I am much more interested in what these Pirates "cards" were cut from, several like the new Clark have bits of red border showing when cut wide. None of the ones I have from the initial group can be put together by the roughly cut sides, so there must have been ample space between them and cut to size???

[sb1]

If you were going for a forgery, why not use the correct 1 cent Benjamin Franklin stamp? And why use such an obscure lithograph of which there are no others known(other than the group I have).

I think it's more likely some local citizen/Pirates fan had this Clark piece at his disposal, albeit a bit creased/cracked and decided to send it to his neighbor, which in those days it was not uncommon to drop an item in their rural mailbox without mailing it and he just stuck a used stamp on it.( I am tempted to remove the stamp and see if it has toning from the perforations indicating the stamp had been attached for a long time).

[Tao_Moko]

Maybe it was a kid who recycled the stamp for hand delivery. Might explain the poor handwriting too. Never seen it before.

[steve B]

The stamp also has perforated initials of a company, called a perfin in that hobby. Doing that was approved in I think 1908 to help companies prevent mailroom pilferage.
Pattern B152 used by Bankers Life Association in Des Moines Iowa if you're curious.

It's perforated 12 - 12 holes per 2cm. It was current from 1908-1912.
It comes with two different watermarks, but they are very hard to tell while a stamp is on paper. I have the device needed, and have never gotten it to work reliably. The change came in 1910, but old stock would have been used for some time after.

I doubt it was mailed, either as a postcard or as a piece of first class mail.

[oldeboo]

Not that you don't already have enough, but I have a few more headscratchers for you.

"Pittsburgh" wasn't officially "Pittsburgh" again until mid 1911 after a decent hiatus, it was "Pittsburg" up until then. Now you do see the "h" used on occasion like on the 1910 Tip Top cards, but it was less common and not correct. Think about the T206 Wagner that uses "Pittsburg" across the chest. Even in the 1912 T207 set "Pittsburg" was still being used. Changes like that take time to catch on, you see it on all sorts of things like postcards well into 1912 and even 1913 some.

The image of Byrne is also used for many different items as you can see below. The T204 was doctored a little to smooth out the front. On the M116 the wrinkles are still there. It would certainly not have had "Pittsburgh" across the chest when he was playing for Saint Louis. "Pittsburg" across the chest as seen on the T206 Wagner card and others was just a fantasy, the uniforms didn't look like that. I can't find any other images at all with the color added like yours across the chest and collar. Someone put a decent amount of effort into coloring that.

To top it off, both of your cards with bottoms use different font and words. The Pittsburgh line is a different font style. Also, one uses "club," and "team" is used on the other.

What very odd and strange pieces.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by steve B

I doubt it was mailed, either as a postcard or as a piece of first class mail.

Plus, the stamp was clearly not cancelled while on this card, as the cancellation doesn't extend beyond the stamp.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by steve B

The stamp also has perforated initials of a company, called a perfin in that hobby. Doing that was approved in I think 1908 to help companies prevent mailroom pilferage.
Pattern B152 used by Bankers Life Association in Des Moines Iowa if you're curious.

It's perforated 12 - 12 holes per 2cm. It was current from 1908-1912.
It comes with two different watermarks, but they are very hard to tell while a stamp is on paper. I have the device needed, and have never gotten it to work reliably. The change came in 1910, but old stock would have been used for some time after.

I doubt it was mailed, either as a postcard or as a piece of first class mail.

To add to what Steve said, this is a machine cancel not a hand stamp. A machine cancel would continue onto the item to which the stamp is affixed. It could not start and stop at the perfs.

[sb1]

My initial thought when I got the first group was the era that they could be from a large time frame. I did not imagine they were 1909 just because of the Horner Litho date. They could have been made in the 1940's for all I knew. However, they are on clay coated paper which is more frequently used on cards and postcards of the 1900-1910's era and not later.

I still think the latest piece has been with the RPPC's for a very long time, most of which had AZO Triangles Up, which would have been used circa 1904-1918. One of the family photos has a couple and their first child(2-3 years old) which was born in 1917 which is on an AZO Triangles Up/Down( a post 1918 marking), the others being earlier images, which all makes sense to date them in the early teens, thus the Pittsburgh spelling.

[sb1]

The rest of the original group images for those that have not seen them or did not want to search the site for them..

[Luke]

Wow. No idea what they are, but what an incredible find for $10 per.

[oldeboo]

On Adams, Gibson, and Wagner are you able to make out what it says in the bottom left of the images? That is certainly a clue. I'm not sure if that was discussed before. It looks like it says something "& Co." It's hard to make out from the images.

Also, just to be sure, when looking at these in hand is there any chance the "Pittsburgh" and other added color was done by hand on these? Or does it appear to be added prior to printing?

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by sb1

The rest of the original group images for those that have not seen them or did not want to search the site for them..

Possibly team issued?

[sb1]

Originally Posted by Luke

Wow. No idea what they are, but what an incredible find for $10 per.

Luke, the original group was not $10 each, quite a bit more. I just got the recent Clarke with stamp and address and a handful of RPPC's that cost about $10 each.

[sb1]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

Possibly team issued?

Hard to say, each one has been cut from a larger group piece OR at the very least a larger individual host. One would think others would exist if mass produced. So I am thinking some type of broadside or such with a small initial print run..

[sb1]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

On Adams, Gibson, and Wagner are you able to make out what it says in the bottom left of the images? That is certainly a clue. I'm not sure if that was discussed before. It looks like it says something "& Co." It's hard to make out from the images.

Also, just to be sure, when looking at these in hand is there any chance the "Pittsburgh" and other added color was done by hand on these? Or does it appear to be added prior to printing?

Forgot that little detail, it is "Bragdon - PGH." Which is well known engraver/printer John C. Bragdon of Pittsburgh who died in 1922. Probably another indication that they are from the 1910's..

[oldeboo]

I have a really wild theory that I don't think is so wild.

-These were found local to the Pittsburgh area.
-They are hand cut.
-There is at least 3 or 4 different fonts being used from card to card. It is highly unlikely a printer would do this on anything intended to be distributed, especially on the same sheet as others. It would look pretty silly and unprofessional.
-"Team" and "Club" would very unlikely be on the same sheet, especially if intended for any sort of distribution or even a window display. Again, way too sloppy.
-Leifield is cropped differently, I'll get into that.
-These all have the Horner/Johnston copyright. It's very possible these were added before whoever requested them received the images.
-Seeing the one's that say "World's Champions," it's rather obvious these were intended to celebrate the 1909 WS team. So these would be late 1909 or early 1910. Especially since one or two of these guys were only with the team until 1910.

I've never seen "Pittsburgh" across the chest on anything from this era, except the 1910 Tip Top cards that happen to celebrate the "World's Champions" as well. Has anyone else seen "Pittsburgh" in this context? They indeed all have the same images when comparing the Tip Tops and hand cuts, except the Leifield variation again. I think it's very possible these are some sort of prototypes or artist's/printer's proofs directly related to the producers of the Ward-Mackey cards. They potentially belonged to a few different proof sheets explaining the different fonts and "team"/"club" usage. They might have been trying to see what looked best for a potential print run of postcards if they could sell it to a customer. This explains the Leifield as well, there may be many others that were made with the oval crop to see how a postcard like that would look. Alternatively, maybe they were on the same sheet and the printer just picked random font because these were only intended to be used by the artist to create the Tip Top cards, so they just needed the info(spelling, position, etc). I think the postcard proof theory from the same producers of the Ward-Mackey cards makes the most sense. The chance of it being something other than outlined seems pretty slim.

This would fit with the Clarke having stuff on the back. Forged signature, writing after creasing, and a non matching stamp. These things were done after their intended use was complete and they were no longer needed. That particular card is deceiving and throwing people off to what these really are.

There is a solid chance these are very, VERY SPECIAL. Unfortunately, I think we need a few more clues to come to a definitive conclusion.

[nolemmings]

It is strange to see these match up so closely with the Tip Tops. I had always thought they put Camnitz' head on someone else's body (and Dots Miller too) because the heads looked too small to me, but here there is what looks like photographic evidence to the contrary.

[h2oya311]

Scott -

I saw that listing on eBay opening at $100 and thought the rest of the PCs were worthless. I wasn't sure what to make of that Clarke though. Loved the Horner image. I figured it was some sort of "doctored" PC (sorta fantasy, although period). I had never seen the other similar PCs before. If I had known about them, I may have put in a bid. I was a little disappointed when the auction ended with one bid, but glad I didn't bid you up on something that you are interested in.

Wish I could help you, but I am no use. Cool to see them reunited with some others. And interesting that you now own two different Clarkes!!!

That Wagner!!!!

[sb1]

Derek,

I interrogated the seller quite thoroughly and am pretty sure they were legit when they stated they bought the group as they were, from a local sale. She also agreed to set a lower buy it now IF they did not sell the first time, but I did not want to take the chance and placed a bid, with small cushion, just to get the Clark to research and compare it to the others I had.

Hopefully one day we will find out where they came from.

I am leaning towards either a box of some type or larger display/broadside and later cut apart.