Reprising the T206 "Elite 12"......show them, if you have any of them

[tedzan]

Back in September 2007, I started a T206 survey tracking T206's in the 150/350 series with rare PIEDMONT 350 backs. Ha ! Who would think that a PIEDMONT 350 back could be "rare" ?
Well guys, the Monster is always full of surprises.
See this thread......http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180

These 150/350 subjects with PIEDMONT 150 backs are not tough to find (except for the Lundgren-Cubs card). But, with PIEDMONT 350 backs these 12 guys are extremely tough to find.

The Elite 12 are depicted here......



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....... ? .......


Originally, we narrowed down these special T206's to eight 150/350 series subjects (hence the "Elite 8")....Dahlen, Ewing, Ganley, Tom Jones, Karger, Lindaman, Lundgren and Mullin.
More recently, Scot Reader's vast T206 survey revealed an additional 3 subjects with the rare PIEDMONT 350 & EPDG backs (Schaefer, Al Shaw, and Spencer). The 12th subject in this
group is very unique.....a Schulte with a PIEDMONT 350 back was discovered several years ago and is the only such card known. No EPDG card of this Schulte has yet to be discovered
which raises some doubt as to whether this card was actually issued, or is just a "scrap" card.

Needless to say, this group of cards (PIEDMONT 350 and, or EPDG) sell for considerably more $$$$ than the other T-brand backs associated with these twelve T206 subjects.

I'll follow up this post with some actual numbers associated to these Elite 12 cards.


TED Z
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[VoodooChild]

Ted....I very much appreciate all of the research you do. It really helps a "rookie" pre-war collector like me learn all of the complexities that exist within the T206 set. Normally, I have nothing to contribute to your posts but surprisingly I do own this one example:

[Thromdog]

As an epdg collector, here's what I got.....

Lucked into the Lundgren 350.....

Lundgren, P350 and EPDG
Spencer, EPDG
Jones, EPDG
Lindaman, EPDG
Shaw, EPDG

LundgrenBackRun.jpg
JonesSpencer.jpg
Graded.jpg

[Eggoman]

Hey Ted:

I NEVER cease to be fascinated by your seemingly tireless work!

I, too, have ONLY a Lindaman EPDG.

[Luke]

Here are mine:

I have a theory that Jones (while he does belong in this group) is actually pretty common as far as EPDG backs go. At one point a couple months ago, me and a friend had 5 copies between the two of us. Could just be an anomaly, but it hasn't been easy to sell the dupes either.

[atx840]

Nice Ted, I have the more common Ganzel, Ewing, Jones & Karger P350s.

[sreader3]

Although many people following this thread are no doubt aware, another distinguishing characteristic of these 12 is that none is confirmed with either Sweet Cap 350 or Sovereign 350.

Also, while Ted is kind to mention me in his OP, I don't claim to have been the first person to know that Schaefer, Shaw and Spencer were part of the 12.

[Thromdog]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

I have a theory that Jones (while he does belong in this group) is actually pretty common as far as EPDG backs go. At one point a couple months ago, me and a friend had 5 copies between the two of us. Could just be an anomaly, but it hasn't been easy to sell the dupes either.

I'm starting to buy into that theory with most if not all of these, to be honest. Dahlen being a possible exception.

We know that referencing pop records can be skewed based on HOF status, that's been talked about frequently. But the pops on these 11 are very middle of the road for that back in comparison, maybe a little lower than normal at best. So what gives?

P350's? A totally different story.....Luke's are awesome.

[tedzan]

Listed here is the recent pop report data (PSA +SGC) on these Elite 12 guys with respect to their PIEDMONT 350 backs.

4......Dahlen (Boston)
7......Ewing
11.....Ganley
8......Tom Jones (St Louis)
10.....Karger
6......Lindaman
11.....Lundgren (Cubs)
2......Mullin (throwing)
9......Schaefer (Detroit)
9......Al Shaw (St Louis)
4......Spencer
1......Schulte

Note for comparison............
There are a total of 144 subjects in the 150/350 series of the T206 set. That leaves 132 subjects that were printed in the normal PIEDMONT 350 press runs.

Overall average of PIEDMONT 350 cards of the 132 subjects = 138 examples (PSA + SGC). Overall average of the Elite 12 subjects = 6.7 examples (PSA + SGC).

Therefore, with respect to PIEDMONT 350 cards, the ratio of the 132 guys in the 150/350 series to the Elite 12 guys (150/35 series) is at least 20.6 to 1.


TED Z
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[cubman1941]

I enjoy reading about these T206's and have a question. Are there not 3 Piedmont backs - the 150 Subjects the 350 Subjects and the New 350-460 Subjects? I run a "Duke's mixture" of these three backs throughout the few Cubs I have. This just adds, to me, the number of backs I have to look fo.
Thanks.

[Sean]

There is actually a fourth Piedmont, the 350-460 back from Factory 42.

All of the 150 and 350 series, as well as most of the 350-460, were shipped from Factory 25. The "42s" come with a serious premium.

[trdcrdkid]

I also have a Jones EPDG, which makes four in this thread (including Ted's).

[Wayne]

Just checked all mine and so far I do not have any oh well I will still keep pushing on to complete my modest set

Great information thank you for sharing

[frankbmd]

I always thought of myself as an "elite" collector.



Now I can prove it. Thanks Ted.

[cubman1941]

Originally Posted by Sean

There is actually a fourth Piedmont, the 350-460 back from Factory 42.

All of the 150 and 350 series, as well as most of the 350-460, were shipped from Factory 25. The "42s" come with a serious premium.

Thanks for the info - now I have even more Cubs to look for. Appreciate it.

[tedzan]

Here are two stories that suggest to us that the PIEDMONT packs that contained the Elite 12 cards were distributed in Georgia.

Seven years ago, I acquired Dahlen and Ewing with PIEDMONT 350 (P 350) backs from ebay. My curiosity prompted me to contact this ebay Seller.
This Seller owned an Antique shop in Atlanta. He was a really friendly guy to talk with, he said that he had acquired 200+ T206's (all PIEDMONT's)
that were from a original collection in that area. I asked him if he had certain cards with P 350 backs. I was quite surprised to hear he had Ganley,
Karger, Lindaman, 2 - Tom Jones, and another Ewing with P 350 backs. So, I purchased all of them.

Since the 1980's, I have acquired several T206 collections from North and South Carolina and never found any of these Elite 12 with P 350 backs.
My best one was an original T206 collection consisting of 400+ (all PIEDMONT's), and there were no Elite 12 with P 350 backs in it.


My 2nd story is from an old friend in the hobby. While vacationing in Georgia this past Summer, he came across an Antique shop that had a stack
of Tobacco cards. Sorting thru them, he pulled out a T206 Karger and a Mullin with P 350 backs.


Hey guys.....I'm curious if anyone on this forum has similar stories regarding these Elite 12 cards to share with us ?



TED Z
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[Drew]

Hi Ted
I need the P350 Shaw and Spencer cards to complete the run of P350 and EPDG T206 backs.
drew

[Luke]

Drew, you have all of the EPDGs and P350s from this thread except those two? So, excluding Schulte, that means you have 20/22? That's incredible if so, and you should definitely post scans of them.

[mybuddyinc]

Once had a P350 Ganley and Ewing. Sold them both, wish I hadn't Some day hope to get one (or two ) back into my collection. I think they're great !!!

[tedzan]

Double post.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Drew

Hi Ted
I need the P350 Shaw and Spencer cards to complete the run of P350 and EPDG T206 backs.
drew

I remember seeing your two T206 sets when we did a trade at Washington Crossing, PA a few years back.

And, I was very impressed with your Elite T206's collection consisting of most PIEDMONT 350's & EPDG's.

Wishing you good luck in finding Shaw, and especially Spencer (he seems to be tougher than the others).


TED Z
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[xplainer]

There is a Dahlen Pied 350 on eBay right now.

[tedzan]

That Dahlen (P 350) was my duplicate years ago....the "X" on it identifies it for me.
I sold it at the National a couple of years ago. And now it's on ebay.
Sure is quite interesting.


TED Z
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[tedzan]

Lundgren is my first El Principe de Gales (EPDG) card......acquired in the early 1980's from Barry Sloate.



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For what it's worth, here is the pop report data (PSA + SGC) regarding the Elite 12 with EPDG backs........

8......Dahlen (Boston)
12.....Ewing
14.....Ganley
14.....Tom Jones (St Louis)
11.....Karger
19.....Lindaman
18.....Lundgren (Cubs)
12.....Mullin (throwing)
12.....Schaefer (Detroit)
18.....Al Shaw (St Louis)
14.....Spencer
0.......Schulte


There's no way of knowing how much of this data is due to re-submitted cards; however, it is obvious that
the Elite 12 cards are more available with the EPDG backs than with the PIEDMONT 350 backs.


TED Z
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[tedzan]

Currently on ebay, of the Elite 12 subjects, there are only 3 cards from a total of 1244 cards listed with PIEDMONT 350 backs.

These 3 cards are Dahlen, Ganley, and Lundgren.


TED Z
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[Michael Peich]

Ted--Here is another example of an Elite Twelve to add to your population report. Detroit's very own Germany Schaefer.

Cheers,
Mike

[tedzan]

Hi Mike

Great get......those Elite 11 dudes are very tough to find. If you are interested in Schaefer's EPDG counterpart,
I have an extra one (shown here).





TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Ronnie73]

The Elite 11's are my current focus at the moment. I bounce around a lot in the set. I'm getting close to all 11 Front/Back runs. An Elite 11 master set would have a total of 73 different front/back combo's. It should be pretty interesting when it's completed. At some point (not now), a new card count should be done, to try and determine true rarity only going by cards in hand and not population reports. Of the 11, Schaefer is my favorite pose. I'm still undecided on number 12 Schulte. Maybe an EPDG discovery would lean me closer to including Schulte. With an EPDG discovery, a master set of the 12 would consist of 80 cards total. Nice round number.

Happy "Elite" collecting everyone!!!

[tedzan]

Hi Ron

My "Elite 11" run stands at 65 cards. I'm missing eight HINDU cards of these guys. As you know, the HINDU cards of these guys are not easy to find.

Like you.....I have my doubts about the Schulte card being a part of this "Elite 11" group. For one, only a single PIEDMONT 350 card has been found.
And secondly, where is the EPDG card of Schulte ? Until I see an EPDG Schulte, my guess is his lonely PIEDMONT 350 card is just a printing anomaly.
Actually, I classify Schulte as a 150-only subject.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Tao_Moko]

For those of you chasing these - let me know what you need. I have a new baby on the way and again find myself not having concern for collecting. Collecting is for those who enjoy and not just have cards sitting in a safe like mine. I have quite a few of the toughest back runs in this series and singles of others.

I have 19 unique variations of the Ganley back run and a total of over 40 of his card and tracked populations for many years.. It should be mentioned that the BH and SOV150 backs for Ganley are pretty scarce in their own right.

These elite cards are really a fun to hunt. Enjoy!

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Ron

My "Elite 11" run stands at 65 cards. I'm missing eight HINDU cards of these guys. As you know, the HINDU cards of these guys are not easy to find.

Like you.....I have my doubts about the Schulte card being a part of this "Elite 11" group. For one, only a single PIEDMONT 350 card has been found.
And secondly, where is the EPDG card of Schulte ? Until I see an EPDG Schulte, my guess is his lonely PIEDMONT 350 card is just a printing anomaly.
Actually, I classify Schulte as a 150-only subject.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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Hi Ted, Nice to hear someone else is chasing after the Elite Run. 65 cards is an incredible accomplishment and I can respectfully relate to the difficulty of this special T206 subset. I'm only at 62 cards. When you say that your missing 8 Hindu's, are you counting Schulte as one of the eight? As far as I know, Karger, Lundgren, Mullin, and Schaefer were not issued with Hindu backs. I'm assuming your 65 cards are including the Schulte cards, otherwise your 65 plus 8 missing Hindu's would bring you to the 73 total cards for the "11" set. That would be a complete Piedmont & EPDG run which I think David Hall has only done so far but I could be completely wrong.

[tedzan]

Hi Ron

Having complete PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN, and SWEET CAP (Factory #30) sets providing the bulk of the 150 series cards
of the Elite 11 subjects gave me a head start on this run.

And yes, I'm reluctantly including Schulte / HINDU in the missing HINDU's.

Although, I thought I once saw a Mullin with a HINDU back. It was years ago, and my recollection of this may be wrong.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[t206kid]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Mike

Great get......those Elite 11 dudes are very tough to find. If you are interested in Schaefer's EPDG counterpart,
I have an extra one (shown here).





TED Z

T206 Reference
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I actually just traded for Mike's P350 that he just posted, and wouldn't mind going after this card too if you can part with it Ted (I will send you an email). Thank you to Mike! And my other 2 Elite 11s.

I'm missing just Dahlen EPDG for a full back run if anyone has one they could part with.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Hi Ted, Nice to hear someone else is chasing after the Elite Run. 65 cards is an incredible accomplishment and I can respectfully relate to the difficulty of this special T206 subset. I'm only at 62 cards. When you say that your missing 8 Hindu's, are you counting Schulte as one of the eight? As far as I know, Karger, Lundgren, Mullin, and Schaefer were not issued with Hindu backs. I'm assuming your 65 cards are including the Schulte cards, otherwise your 65 plus 8 missing Hindu's would bring you to the 73 total cards for the "11" set. That would be a complete Piedmont & EPDG run which I think David Hall has only done so far but I could be completely wrong.

Ron

" That would be a complete Piedmont & EPDG run which I think David Hall has only done so far but I could be completely wrong. "

This is partially true.

I'm sure David Hall has the complete Elite 11 run, since I sold him quite a number of these cards several years ago.

Also, Drew (from New Jersey) may have a complete run. While we were making some trades a few years ago, he showed me his
two T206 sets. And, if I recall correctly he has all (or most of) the Elite 11 run cards in his 2nd set.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Ron

" That would be a complete Piedmont & EPDG run which I think David Hall has only done so far but I could be completely wrong. "

This is partially true.

I'm sure David Hall has the complete Elite 11 run, since I sold him quite a number of these cards several years ago.

Also, Drew (from New Jersey) may have a complete run. While we were making some trades a few years ago, he showed me his
two T206 sets. And, if I recall correctly he has all (or most of) the Elite 11 run cards in his 2nd set.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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David Hall has his Elite 12 listed in the PSA Registry and is 100% complete. I'm trying to locate the Tubby Spencer Piedmont 350 that is or was graded SGC 40. Maybe you or Drew has or had this card. I'm also not sure how many raw ones might be out there but I believe the Spencer is the key to the set if not counting Schulte.

I'm just trying to understand how some are much easier to find than others. I guess I'm having this issue because in my mind I'm thinking that all 11 were on the same sheet and should have very similar populations.

[Luke]

Ron,

They probably were not all on the same sheet. This sheet of Piedmont 150s has Karger, Schaefer, Mullin and Lindaman on it. The others would have been on other sheets most likely.
https://photos.imageevent.com/patric...203%20Full.jpg

One thing we'll never know is if these players were pulled at different times. Poses could have been pulled one at a time or a few at time, or all at once.

Also, even if they were all pulled at the same time, a normal distribution would likely have one or two poses that are extra tough to find just based on randomness.

There were clearly a ton of changes made to sheets during the entire print run. It wouldn't surprise me at all if these guys were pulled at different times which lead to the disparity in populations now.

Finding this pattern was an awesome discovery. Within the group, there are certainly different tiers of toughness for individual players. Figuring out that part of it may not possible.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by t206kid

I actually just traded for Mike's P350 that he just posted, and wouldn't mind going after this card too if you can part with it Ted (I will send you an email). Thank you to Mike! And my other 2 Elite 11s.

I'm missing just Dahlen EPDG for a full back run if anyone has one they could part with.

Hi Jay

I will try to get back to you tomorrow regarding the Schaefer card. There is a guy who contacted me prior to you that is interested in it.


TED Z
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[t206kid]

Thanks Ted. It's be a cool pairing. Love the thread.

[atx840]

Great thread. I have 10/11, missing Dahlen.

[Thromdog]

I personally think Dahlen’s EPDG is harder to get than his 350. Like, really freaking tough.

Plus it gives me a chance to show off my Boston backrun.

[Michael Peich]

Jeff--That is an impressive Dahlen back run! Thanks for sharing it.

Cheers,
Mike

[t206kid]

Originally Posted by Thromdog

I personally think Dahlen’s EPDG is harder to get than his 350. Like, really freaking tough.

Plus it gives me a chance to show off my Boston backrun.

Never get tired of this picture. I'm inclined to agree...but I think Dahlen and Spencer are the two toughest P350s.

My Dahlen is still in process!

[Jantz]

Ted & I talked about these Elite subjects years ago and I went on the hunt looking for them. Found a few on Ebay in a relatively short period of time.

I've found quite a few of them in my travels and have sold most of them off except for the Ewing below. I kept this card specifically for my set.

[Thromdog]

Originally Posted by t206kid

Never get tired of this picture. I'm inclined to agree...but I think Dahlen and Spencer are the two toughest P350s.

My Dahlen is still in process!

As tough as the Dahlen 350 is, there has been at least 5 sold in the last year and a half.

I haven’t seen another Dahlen EPDG since the Saco in January of 2015.

And here’s my run with the Brooklyn. Hahahaha

That OM is a toughie too.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by atx840

Great thread. I have 10/11, missing Dahlen.

Hey Chris, It's been a long time. How have you been? Wow, 10 of the 11. If you had an extra Spencer, I have a Dahlen in a Topps Buyback case. I have it listed on Ebay. I haven't added any Blue Chase's in a very long time. I would like to get into some of the T206 yellow/brown scraps at some point. Nice to see you back. Talk to you soon buddy.

[ahumes13]

I've enjoyed reading about these cards and thanks to Jay I've corralled my first, 21 more to go... Was bored tonight so took a look at current PSA and SGC pop reports and as best I can tell the numbers look like the following (including Hindu just for comparison sake):

Dahlen - Unknown P350 (6 PSA, unknown SGC), 7 EPDG, 11 Hindu

Ewing - 11 P350, 14 EPDG, 7 Hindu

Ganley - 17 P350, 19 EPDG, 14 Hindu

Jones - 13 P350, 18 EPDG, 11 Hindu

Karger - 14 P350, 16 EPDG, N/A Hindu

Lindaman - 10 P350, 24 EPDG, 19 Hindu

Lundgren - 17 P350, 26 EPDG, N/A Hindu

Mullin - 6 P350, 21 EPDG, N/A Hindu

Schaefer - 9 P350, 13 EPDG, N/A Hindu

Shaw - 11 P350, 21 EPDG, 21 Hindu

Spencer - 7 P350, 16 EPDG, 13 Hindu

Bears out much of the discussion above and does seem that P350s are showing up less across the board (perhaps with the exception of Dahlen). Probably old news for many, but was interesting for me to run out the current numbers.

If anyone has any extras or is looking to unload any P350s or EPDG please PM or email me!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ahumes13

I've enjoyed reading about these cards and thanks to Jay I've corralled my first, 21 more to go... Was bored tonight so took a look at current PSA and SGC pop reports and as best I can tell the numbers look like the following (including Hindu just for comparison sake):

Dahlen - Unknown P350 (6 PSA, unknown SGC), 7 EPDG, 11 Hindu

Ewing - 11 P350, 14 EPDG, 7 Hindu

Ganley - 17 P350, 19 EPDG, 14 Hindu

Jones - 13 P350, 18 EPDG, 11 Hindu

Karger - 14 P350, 16 EPDG, N/A Hindu

Lindaman - 10 P350, 24 EPDG, 19 Hindu

Lundgren - 17 P350, 26 EPDG, N/A Hindu

Mullin - 6 P350, 21 EPDG, N/A Hindu

Schaefer - 9 P350, 13 EPDG, N/A Hindu

Shaw - 11 P350, 21 EPDG, 21 Hindu

Spencer - 7 P350, 16 EPDG, 13 Hindu

Bears out much of the discussion above and does seem that P350s are showing up less across the board (perhaps with the exception of Dahlen). Probably old news for many, but was interesting for me to run out the current numbers.

If anyone has any extras or is looking to unload any P350s or EPDG please PM or email me!

Hello Andy

Welcome to the club.

You can add my ELITE 12 (actually 11....missing Spencer) to your data, since all of my cards are ungraded.




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TED Z
T206 Reference
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[ahumes13]

Thanks for the welcome Ted! I’ve really enjoyed this site and have learned a lot from the threads you and others have started like this one. Sooo...you have the Schulte?!? Certainly there are other ungraded copies out there, by choice or just unwittingly. What’s your take on the amount of ungraded copies versus graded for cards like these? Just curious, I wouldn’t know where to start to guess.

[Sean]

Ted doesn't have the Schulte, it belonged to Joe Paelez. After he passed away it was sold to David Hall. And it is unlikely that there is another one anywhere.

[ahumes13]

Gotcha, I misread Ted’s post to read that he had 11 of the 12 I reread my post and it certainly read like I was specifically referencing the Schulte in regards to there being ungraded copies, that was my bad I was referring to Elite 11 in general. Seems like the Schulte is/was scrap. Cool card nontheless!