OT - best pitcher regular season / worst pitcher post season?

[doug.goodman]

Life long Dodger fan, born and raised in San Francisco, asking a simple question :

Which HOF level pitcher has had the worst post season career?

Doug "just wondering" Goodman

[perezfan]

Without doing any research whatsoever.... I hate to say Clayton Kershaw comes to mind.

[Shoeless Moe]

All I know is the Dodgers continue to choke in the post season time and time again.

[oldjudge]

Call me crazy, but I don’t think Dave Roberts will be getting many Manager of the Year votes.

[frankbmd]

I think it’s a bullpen phone problem. Roberts asked for Kenley and they sent in Kelly. Kershaw actually should be credited with a save .......

for Washington.

[oldjudge]

Sorry-duplicated post

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Call me crazy, but I don’t think Dave Roberts will be getting many Manager of the Year votes.

Taking out Maeda was another good move.

[rats60]

Kershaw is the worst post season pitcher ever. I saw a stat were he had the highest ERA ever for a certain minimum innings (50, 75 or 100 I don't remember). It was shocking that they brought him in the game last night given his poor performances through the years. How many series has he lost for the Dodgers?

[Snapolit1]

Terrible because Kershaw is a great talent and a really good guy. Tough to watch year after year.

[ejharrington]

Trevor Hoffman comes to mind.

[samosa4u]

I live in Toronto, so I don't watch the west coast games.
Does Kershaw have a no-trade clause? If not, then why don't the Dodgers shop him around? Maybe they can get a crazy return for him, no?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by rats60

Kershaw is the worst post season pitcher ever. I saw a stat were he had the highest ERA ever for a certain minimum innings (50, 75 or 100 I don't remember). It was shocking that they brought him in the game last night given his poor performances through the years. How many series has he lost for the Dodgers?

All of them. Especially the ones he has been in the last 7 years straight.

I was at the game last night and it was hard to watch...and if I ever hear that stupid song again (WE ARE YOUNG) when he pitches I am going to puke

https://youtu.be/KXJNoC6CuYE?t=55 . I was hoping Koufax would pitch. but it was yum kipper and we were stuck with this STIFF. See you next year when 25 of 30 of your starts are against the padres, rockies, giants, diamondbacks, pirates, marlins...the real little league of baseball.

AND I will not buy another dodger related item until they fire Friedman and Roberts. I would also like to kick Joe Kelly in the nuts. Why in the hell do they try to get 2 innings out of him when he is a KNOWN csucker after 1. Lead off walk and he still leaves him in? F'ing preposterous.

WE ARE YOUNG my ass.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I live in Toronto, so I don't watch the west coast games.
Does Kershaw have a no-trade clause? If not, then why don't the Dodgers shop him around? Maybe they can get a crazy return for him, no?

youre kidding right? LOL. The word is out on this bum and NOBODY wants him. Sad because he is hall of famer because he can get little leaguer's out. big deal. He is a L O S E R.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

All of them. Especially the ones he has been in the last 7 years straight.

I was at the game last night and it was hard to watch...and if I ever hear that stupid song again (WE ARE YOUNG) when he pitches I am going to puke

https://youtu.be/KXJNoC6CuYE?t=55 . I was hoping Koufax would pitch. but it was yum kipper and we were stuck with this STIFF. See you next year when 25 of 30 of your starts are against the padres, rockies, giants, diamondbacks, pirates, marlins...the real little league of baseball.

AND I will not buy another dodger related item until they fire Friedman and Roberts. I would also like to kick Joe Kelly in the nuts. Why in the hell do they try to get 2 innings out of him when he is a KNOWN csucker after 1. Lead off walk and he still leaves him in? F'ing preposterous.

WE ARE YOUNG my ass.

I guess every pitcher can't have a .95 ERA in the post season and pitch shutouts in game 5 and 7 when you need it. Kershaw is the Anti-Koufax.

Edit I don't think you can blame him for 2015. Even though he lost game 1, he pitched well in winning game 4 against the Mets to keep the Dodgers alive, only to have them lose the deciding game 5. I think you are right though for the other 6 years. 6 of 7 postseason losses are directly on his shoulders. When the Dodgers needed him to step up, he choked.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Even a casual fan would have managed the late game rotation better than Roberts last night. One dumb move after another. Time for him to go.

[ctownboy]

The answer is simple -- keep Kershaw off the Post Season roster. That way the Manager doesn't have an urge to use him and the OTHER players don't have to dread the inevitable implosion when he pitches.....

CC Sabathia is a future Hall-of-Famer and the (yuck) Yankees dropped him from the Post Season roster.


David

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

The answer is simple -- keep Kershaw off the Post Season roster. That way the Manager doesn't have an urge to use him and the OTHER players don't have to dread the inevitable implosion when he pitches.....

CC Sabathia is a future Hall-of-Famer and the (yuck) Yankees dropped him from the Post Season roster.


David

Sabathia is at the tail end of his career. There is zero chance any manager is going to keep a HOF pitcher in the prime of his career off the post-season roster, even though it might be the right baseball move.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sabathia is at the tail end of his career. There is zero chance any manager is going to keep a HOF pitcher in the prime of his career off the post-season roster, even though it might be the right baseball move.

Chuck Tanner sent Bert Blyleven to the bullpen when the Pirates went down 3-1 to the Orioles in 1979. Some pitchers just can't handle the pressure of the post season. I don't know that you leave him off the roster, but you don't give him the ball when your season is on the line.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Chuck Tanner sent Bert Blyleven to the bullpen when the Pirates went down 3-1 to the Orioles in 1979. Some pitchers just can't handle the pressure of the post season. I don't know that you leave him off the roster, but you don't give him the ball when your season is on the line.

Oh I agree with that. Or at least get him the hell out of there after Rendon goes yard.

Pulling Maeda and then sticking with Kelly are equally inexplicable.

In contrast, and of course it's hindsight, Martinez managed his staff well, particularly not panicking on Strasburg.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by rats60

Chuck Tanner sent Bert Blyleven to the bullpen when the Pirates went down 3-1 to the Orioles in 1979. Some pitchers just can't handle the pressure of the post season. I don't know that you leave him off the roster, but you don't give him the ball when your season is on the line.

...and Blyleven STILL whines about it. LOL

[ctownboy]

Kershaw is on the downside of his career. Velocity is down, hits, walks and home runs allowed are up. Do you want to please one player and lose or do the right thing and win?

Oh yeah, as far as trading Kershaw, I am sure there are some losing teams that would give something for him.

David

[ctownboy]

As far as Kelly goes, it has been written that he was/is dealing with an injury, so, if true, then Roberts should be really questioned about his decision making.

David

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by rats60

Chuck Tanner sent Bert Blyleven to the bullpen when the Pirates went down 3-1 to the Orioles in 1979. Some pitchers just can't handle the pressure of the post season. I don't know that you leave him off the roster, but you don't give him the ball when your season is on the line.

Can't handle the pressure? Please review your history. Blyleven had a complete game victory in the 1979 NLCS (final game), and left game 2 of the WS for a pinch hitter after 6 innings of a 2-2 tie. He was as responsible as anyone for the Pirates winning their possible elimination game 5 when he threw 4 scoreless innings of relief and got the win after entering with his team trailing. He was not passed over for a start-- he threw those four innings on two days' rest and was thus unavailable to start either game 6 or 7 in the ensuing 2-3 days. I'd say he handled the pressure just fine.

[oldjudge]

Kershaw had a quality start in Game 2--he gave up 3 runs in six innings, all in the first two. That line was very similar to Strasberg's last night. Most of the time when he pitches like that the Dodgers win easily. Last night he should have been pulled after the Rendon homer, which by the way Rendon hit on a good down pitch. The Dodgers had Soto kryptonite in the bullpen-they should have used it.

[Fred]

Mariano - best post season pitcher

[rats60]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Can't handle the pressure? Please review your history. Blyleven had a complete game victory in the 1979 NLCS (final game), and left game 2 of the WS for a pinch hitter after 6 innings of a 2-2 tie. He was as responsible as anyone for the Pirates winning their possible elimination game 5 when he threw 4 scoreless innings of relief and got the win after entering with his team trailing. He was not passed over for a start-- he threw those four innings on two days' rest and was thus unavailable to start either game 6 or 7 in the ensuing 2-3 days. I'd say he handled the pressure just fine.

The pressure comment was meant for Kershaw not Blyleven. Blyleven was sent to the bullpen because he was a selfish player who thought about his individual stats and didn't care about the team winning. Tanner didn't trust him to give him the ball with the season on the line. Also, the offense scored 7 runs in their last 3 at bats. That is the reason for the win, not Blyleven's pitching. Blyleven proved Tanner correct the next season when he threw a temper tantrum and quit the team because he was taken out of a game. The team chemistry was never the same when he returned and Tanner nicknamed him "Cryleven." He was traded at the end of the season for garbage.

[GaryPassamonte]

Kershaw shouldn't be the only scapegoat for the series loss. He had a bad 2 batter pitching line at a bad time. There were many subpar performances by Dodger position players. How about Seager and Bellinger? They sure didn't light it up. And, of course, let's not forget the epic futility of Pollack. Going 0-14 with 12 Ks must be a record. Or was it 0-13 with 11 Ks. This was a team loss. The Dodgers remind me of the 1990s Buffalo Bills. They were great in the regular season, but proved too "soft" to win the championship. I'm afraid the Dodgers may be a "soft" team. Since I'm a lifelong Dodger fan, seeing all this transpire hurts.

[Tripredacus]

Prior to 2018 my vote would be for David Price.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...riceda01.shtml

[the-illini]

Kershaw has 9 playoff starts with at least 6 innings and 0 or 1 run.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by rats60

The pressure comment was meant for Kershaw not Blyleven. Blyleven was sent to the bullpen because he was a selfish player who thought about his individual stats and didn't care about the team winning. Tanner didn't trust him to give him the ball with the season on the line. Also, the offense scored 7 runs in their last 3 at bats. That is the reason for the win, not Blyleven's pitching. Blyleven proved Tanner correct the next season when he threw a temper tantrum and quit the team because he was taken out of a game. The team chemistry was never the same when he returned and Tanner nicknamed him "Cryleven." He was traded at the end of the season for garbage.

Then why lump Blyleven in with Kershaw--what the hell was your point? Oh yeah, there was none.

BTW, you were wrong again anyway. Please look it up, you will see that Tanner gave the ball to Blyleven in game 5, trailing 1-0 and on the brink of elimination, BECAUSE his team's season was on the line.

This from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette on 10/19/1979:

"Blyleven pitched often in the World Series. He pitched six strong innings on Thursday, October 11, when the Pirates won the second game 3-2.
Although he was scheduled to start the sixth game, Tanner used him in the fifth game, in which Blyleven pitched four strong innings to back up Jim Rooker's five good innings.
'We were in a situation where we couldn't go anywhere but home, Tanner said. So we used Blyleven'.
When the World Series ended, Tanner called that game pitched by Rooker and Blyleven the turning point of the series.
Blyleven volunteered to come back and pitch the sixth game with one day's rest. Tanner chose Candelaria instead, but Blyleven threw hard in the bullpen, hoping to get in".

So let's recap.
1) Blyleven wants the ball, is effective in game 2 and leaves tied 2-2 against Jim Palmer;
2) Blyleven set to start game 6--not relegated to the bullpen by an unhappy manager;
3) Manager calls on Blyleven in elimination game 5 because the season was on the line and there would be no game 6 unless his team rallied;
4) Blyleven throws four scoreless, Bucs rally and win;
4) Manager called the game pitched by Rooker and Blyleven the turning point of the Series:
5) Blyleven asked to pitch again on one day's rest, and is called to warm up in game 6.

Got any more horseshit you'd like to peddle about the manager having no confidence in Blyleven?
So Tanner ended up not liking him? Well, Bert went on to win another 130+ games elsewhere, and would win three post-season games including a World Series game. Tanner never won more than 84 games in a season thereafter and the Pirates have not played in the World Series since Blyleven left.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Then why lump Blyleven in with Kershaw--what the hell was your point? Oh yeah, there was none.

BTW, you were wrong again anyway. Please look it up, you will see that Tanner gave the ball to Blyleven in game 5, trailing 1-0 and on the brink of elimination, BECAUSE his team's season was on the line.

This from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette on 10/19/1979:

"Blyleven pitched often in the World Series. He pitched six strong innings on Thursday, October 11, when the Pirates won the second game 3-2.
Although he was scheduled to start the sixth game, Tanner used him in the fifth game, in which Blyleven pitched four strong innings to back up Jim Rooker's five good innings.
'We were in a situation where we couldn't go anywhere but home, Tanner said. So we used Blyleven'.
When the World Series ended, Tanner called that game pitched by Rooker and Blyleven the turning point of the series.
Blyleven volunteered to come back and pitch the sixth game with one day's rest. Tanner chose Candelaria instead, but Blyleven threw hard in the bullpen, hoping to get in".

So let's recap.
1) Blyleven wants the ball, is effective in game 2 and leaves tied 2-2 against Jim Palmer;
2) Blyleven set to start game 6--not relegated to the bullpen by an unhappy manager;
3) Manager calls on Blyleven in elimination game 5 because the season was on the line and there would be no game 6 unless his team rallied;
4) Blyleven throws four scoreless, Bucs rally and win;
4) Manager called the game pitched by Rooker and Blyleven the turning point of the Series:
5) Blyleven asked to pitch again on one day's rest, and is called to warm up in game 6.

Got any more horseshit you'd like to peddle about the manager having no confidence in Blyleven?
So Tanner ended up not liking him? Well, Bert went on to win another 130+ games elsewhere, and would win three post-season games including a World Series game. Tanner never won more than 84 games in a season thereafter and the Pirates have not played in the World Series since Blyleven left.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/01...8494349678800/

Tanner was visibly upset in 1980 when Blyleven left the team and went home to California after complaining about his lack of use.

The Bucs manager stopped, asking, 'Did I say Cryleven?

'I never talk about a player, but I don't appreciate the lie he told,' Tanner said. 'He didn't like the way I managed. Well, I don't manage my team for one man; I manage the man for the good of the team.

'I don't think Bert fits the team concept,' said Tanner. 'He told me last season he's interested in, oh, I don't remember the exact order ... starts, complete games, shutouts, strikeouts, earned run average.

If Blyleven was such a good pitcher why was he traded for Gary Alexander, Victor Cruz, Bob Owchinko and Rafael Vasquez?

[doug.goodman]

I believe the Dodgers are 15-17 in post season games that Kershaw has appeared in.

He is 10-11 in games he got the decision.


So, to get more specific with my original question :
Has any other probable HOF quality STARTING pitcher ever appeared in 30 or more post season games, and had a losing record in his own decisions, and his team had a losing record in his appearances?

I'm not "blaming" Kershaw, there is plenty of blame to pass around, I'm just curious.

Doug "The Dodgers won't win a ring in the Kershaw era" Goodman


PS - Roberts isn't a manager in the traditional sense, the Dodgers organization makes many on field calls from upstairs.

[nolemmings]

You just don't give up--you have no point to make, so you make one up that has no application to the topic at hand. Then you backpeddle and say you meant something else. Then it's shown you are flat wrong about that too. So now you're off saying Blyleven wasn't a good pitcher because his below .500 career manager who never went to the post-season and barely won again after Bert left didn't like him and the franchise that hasn't been in the World Series for 39 years since didn't get much in trade. "If he was such a good pitcher then....?" Well, if he was such a shitty pitcher, why is he in the HOF? And again, what the hell does this have to do with regular vs. post-season pitching performance? Where did Blyleven fail there, when did a manager show a lack of confidence in his ability to win in the clutch and what is your point?

Keep on swinging and missing. You should probably just skip ahead and blurt as others do when they have no point to make and their arguments are shredded... but, but, but, Benghazi.

[doug.goodman]

As far as Bert Blyleven is concerned, he appeared in 8 post season games, so shouldn't factor into this conversation at all, but if we are going to include him, he had 5 wins and 1 loss so again doesn't seem to factor into this conversation.

Doug

[gonzo]

Greg Maddux

30 postseason starts, 35 appearances
Team 13-17 in those starts, 16-19 in those appearances.

Maddux’s own postseason record 11-14

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Greg Maddux

Thank you Michael.

And I see that Glavin was 14-16 in decisions.

Makes sense since the Dodgers are the new Braves...

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Greg Maddux

30 postseason starts, 35 appearances
Team 13-17 in those starts, 16-19 in those appearances.

Maddux’s own postseason record 11-14

Well the thing about Maddux is that he pitched 198 innings in the postseason and had a 3.27 ERA. There were several series in the post season where he lost one or two but had a good ERA...there were also a few which he didn't. The one thing though is that not once in Maddux's career did I yell at the TV and wonder out loud why they were putting him in. Can't say that about Kershaw. LOL

[calvindog]

Roberts lost the series last night, no one else. As Peter said, even a casual fan knows you put Maeda - your best reliever in first - and then finish with Baez and Jansen (or just Jansen). You don’t put in a starter who sucked in the postseason when he was the best pitcher on the planet. And I am certain Kelly hasn’t gotten through two clean innings in one game all year. When you consider how bad the Nats’ pen is, there was no reason to hold back any pitchers. This game was over by inning 11 one way or another.

And Roberts has overmanaged for each of the past three seasons, especially when you recall him pulling Rich Hill early twice, and watching as the overtaxed pen imploded. They will never win a WS with him as he just doesn’t have the basic smarts to manage.

PS Bellinger is the position player Kershaw. Useless in another postseason. Munch and Turner are the heart of the team. Bellinger’s D is tops but he is no clutch hitter. I hope he ends up third in the MVP race because that’s the best he deserves.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the-illini

Kershaw has 9 playoff starts with at least 6 innings and 0 or 1 run.

Any pitcher has great stats if you cherry pick his best games.
What's Kershaw's post season career ERA? 4.43.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Any pitcher has great stats if you cherry pick his best games.
What's Kershaw's post season career ERA? 4.43.

And Koufax’s was .95 and he pitched complete game shutouts in games 5 and 7 of the 1965 WS — on two days rest. I hope the comparisons between he and Kershaw are finished.

[mr2686]

How would Koufax fare against today's players?...He could go out anytime and pitch a 5 hit shutout. Why would he give up 5 hits, well, he is 83 after all. LOL

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Any pitcher has great stats if you cherry pick his best games.
What's Kershaw's post season career ERA? 4.43.

I see it both ways, sometimes he was great, oftentimes bombed. But given two four run leads in a game that would have won them the WS, he coughed it up twice against the Astros. Hard to defend him at this point.

[Shoeless Moe]

Would love to see Scherzer & Verlander (former teammates with Detroit) face off in Game 7 of the World Series.....and both be on.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Would love to see Scherzer & Verlander (former teammates with Detroit) face off in Game 7 of the World Series.....and both be on.

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I see it both ways, sometimes he was great, oftentimes bombed. But given two four run leads in a game that would have won them the WS, he coughed it up twice against the Astros. Hard to defend him at this point.

I would bet you could take any mediocre pitcher and find a decent number of games he pitched very well.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would bet you could take any mediocre pitcher and find a decent number of games he pitched very well.

According to Garrison Keillor all the pitchers in Lake Wobegon are above average every time they pitch.

[Bigdaddy]

Randy Johnson was 7-9 in the postseason, 3.50 ERA.

Only once did he make a WS appearance in eight years in the playoffs.

Not making excuses for Kershaw (he's certainly choked several times), but if you watch the games he's started, I believe his managers have left him in too long many times. Staying with their 'ace' even when he was struggling.

So three of the best pitchers in recent memory, and what do we have for post season records:

Maddux 11-14
Unit 7-9
Kershaw 9-11

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't understand why, with all the advances in training and medical knowledge, starting pitchers today are such snowflakes that you have to start to worry about their pitch count after 5 innings, even when they have an extra day of rest than used to be the norm. How often do you think their managers were worried that Spahn, or Gibby, or Seaver, or Carlton had thrown too many pitches?

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't understand why, with all the advances in training and medical knowledge, starting pitchers today are such snowflakes that you have to start to worry about their pitch count after 5 innings, even when they have an extra day of rest than used to be the norm. How often do you think their managers were worried that Spahn, or Gibby, or Seaver, or Carlton had thrown too many pitches?

It's all about being on the hook for the pitcher's contract. Spahn, Gibby, Seaver and Carlton weren't making 20+million a year with 4 or 5 years left on a contract. Mangers are told to "manage" so that they get the most out of them for a potential win, and then use the bullpen. I miss the old days.

[frankbmd]

The percentage of wins credited to starters is decreasing faster than their salaries are increasing.

If Spahn was given to the hook based on a pitch count, he wouldn’t have won over 300 games, unless, of course, the early hooks allowed him to pitch into his 60s.