T207 The Best Tobacco Set Of All Time

[Birken]

Before you haters chime in...let me state my case.

Think about what the early 1900's looked like. Limited technology as we know it, death, disease, deplorable conditions, etc.
So, when I look at T207's...I automatically think of a very drab life at the time. T207s reflect that reality...you throw in a splash of color on the cards and you get...well...hope. It is easily the most "real" set of all time. It reflects true life at the time. The contrast between the brown (drab) background and the limited color appearing on the cards is absolutely stunning. Show me any other Tobacco Set that has that kind of contrast. It's either all color or black and white.

When you start breaking down the stats, T206s have probably 100 times per player and T205s 50 times per player compared to T207s. Factor in the fact that the T207 set has 15% more rare cards than the T20six Wagner...and I shake my head everyday why anyone would chase the T20six Wagner.

I'm a collector...not an investor, so my post here is to those true collectors of the hobby. But a word of warning to the investors out there, supply and demand always come back to equilibrium...trust me I know, and at some point the Tobacco market wakes up and realizes a T214 Cobb is infinitely more rare than any T20six Cobb combo you could imagine.

So...thanks for letting me put my opinion out there. I look forward to the debate that follows. Bottom line...it's not always about the money... we have all been conditioned to believe that this is exactly what it's about.

Ben




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[ullmandds]

T207's are cool...no doubt...the interesting array of players...the rarities...the backs...BUT...the GOAT???????? Thanks for the sunday am laugh!!!!!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Birken

Factor in the fact that the T207 set has 15% more rare cards than the T20six Wagner...and I shake my head everyday why anyone would chase the T20six Wagner.

It is because they aren't Honus Wagner, they are common players. The t206 Doyle is 5-6 times scarcer than the Wagner, but sells for much less. Wagner was one of the 2 big names in the game at the time. The kids all wanted Wagner and Cobb, they didn't care about Lewis and Lowdermilk.

When I collected in the 80s, the t207 set was popular along with t205 and t206. Lewis and Lowdermilk were two of the top 10 cards in the hobby. Now they can't even make a top 50 list of prewar cards. The hobby has shifted from set collecting to superstars and rookies. T207 lacks the biggest stars in the game. No Wagner. No Cobb. No Matty. No Young. Only WaJo of the big 5. You can't be in the discussion for the best set when you don't have the players everyone wants.

[iowadoc77]

Appreciate the perspective but not even close.
Popularity- T206
Players included- T206
Colors/ esthetics- T206- but not nearly as nice as clean T205s
HOFers- T206
And I could go on.

As we see countless times, scarcity doesn’t always translate to value

Having said that, if you like T207, good for you. These are all opinions

[kmac32]

Love my T207 Cubs. Interesting cards and interesting backs in my opinion

[2dueces]

Death and drab in the 1900’s? I’m not sure the whole world was drab. Fine silks from China. Luxury liners full of wonderful china. Impressionists such as Monet and Renoir painting vivid colorful canvases. The invention of the automobile allowing people to travel by their own means farther than they ever imagined. Opulent railcars for luxury never imagined. No I believe times weren’t drab for everyone. But I like the T207 set. Just not colorful enough to hold my interest long.

[frankbmd]

Reading period novels and non-fiction from the early twentieth century leads me to a different conclusion.

I’m quite sure there were plenty of early T card collectors, who would shudder at the prospect of time travel to 2009.

Would any of you seriously consider waking up tomorrow in 2109 without a second thought?

I might want to visit, but not without a round trip ticket.

[hcv123]

Firstly let me state that I am new to prewar cards and T207 wasn't originally on the list of what I was going to collect. A couple of fellow collectors suggested I take a look - I did and have decided to collect some - based on my impression of the appearance of the cards - not sure I agree with the whole background of the era you provide, but I do agree there is something visually captivating about some of the cards.
That all said - you state correctly that the market is determined (VERY imperfectly) by supply and demand. That agreed - I would suggest the consensus is while there may be a much lower supply of T207, there is also a much lower demand. No guarantee that time changes the demand - that is based upon the tastes and preferences of the generation. If demand remains constant or diminishes simple economics dictate that with an unchanging supply there will be downward price pressure. Only with increased demand and a static supply would there be upward price pressure.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

Appreciate the perspective but not even close.
Popularity- T206
Players included- T206
Colors/ esthetics- T206- but not nearly as nice as clean T205s
HOFers- T206
And I could go on.

As we see countless times, scarcity doesn’t always translate to value

Having said that, if you like T207, good for you. These are all opinions

Obaks absolutely blow out T206 (and other tobacco sets) in terms of presentation.

[Nunzio11]

Perfect timing for a T207 thread. A friend I work with who is not a collector just brought in a handful of cards for me to take a look at. He got them from his father in law who had them in a box in the closet. There are a handful of beat up t205 and t206...nothing special. There were also 5 t207s. Not the best condition but definitely 1 - 2. Wajo recruit back, 3 broadleafs (Bauman, Herzog, and O. Wilson) and the star of the group a Buck Weaver anonymous factory 25 VA.

Does anyone know if there is a true pop report of Weaver with the anon 25 VA back?

PS I’ve read every thread here and whatever articles I could find online. Obviously there are not many past sales either.

[frohme]

Originally Posted by Nunzio11

Does anyone know if there is a true pop report of Weaver with the anon 25 VA back?

PS I’ve read every thread here and whatever articles I could find online. Obviously there are not many past sales either.

Congrats and very cool! Some tough customers in those cards, certainly. Hard to know exactly what the population of any card is, even when pop reports are clear ... which they are certainly not for Anon T207s.

In general, Factory 25 are harder to come by than the other Broadleaf-class cards, seemingly by a pretty decent gap. That said, some of the higher grade T207s (B/L class) are found with Anon Fac 25). The Weaver below is an solid mid-grade example.




--
Mike

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by rats60

It is because they aren't Honus Wagner, they are common players. The t206 Doyle is 5-6 times scarcer than the Wagner, but sells for much less. Wagner was one of the 2 big names in the game at the time. The kids all wanted Wagner and Cobb, they didn't care about Lewis and Lowdermilk.

When I collected in the 80s, the t207 set was popular along with t205 and t206. Lewis and Lowdermilk were two of the top 10 cards in the hobby. Now they can't even make a top 50 list of prewar cards. The hobby has shifted from set collecting to superstars and rookies. T207 lacks the biggest stars in the game. No Wagner. No Cobb. No Matty. No Young. Only WaJo of the big 5. You can't be in the discussion for the best set when you don't have the players everyone wants.

Yup yup!!! The reality of today’s hobby.

[Birken]

I appreciate all the comments so far, I love hearing other perspectives. Don't get me wrong, I think T205, T206 are beautiful sets among many others of the era. I get the argument around lack of stars in T207 making it less desirable, but I still find it to be a very unique set and very different from any other set of the day.

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[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Birken

Before you haters chime in...let me state my case.

Think about what the early 1900's looked like. Limited technology as we know it, death, disease, deplorable conditions, etc.

Ben

When you start off a post on this forum such as you did, it just doesn't go over to well.

First, were you alive in 1912 when the T207's were issued ? My parents, Aunt and Uncle were, and they certainly did not paint such a grim picture as your litany of negative events.
On the contrary, they would reminisce of a time (they were teenagers back then) when life in this country was vital and promising and people were very friendly.

Anyhow, I just could not understand where you were coming from with your preface to this subject of T207 cards. OK, here is where I'm coming from. I've been an avid Sportscard
set collector for more than 40 years. After I put together two T206 sets in the 1980's and 1990's, I began collecting T207's. I really enjoyed the challenge provided by this set, and
especially seeing and reading bios of ballplayers I had not known. For example, that "toughie", Louis Lowdermilk. Why did it cost me big $$$$ to get a BB card of a pitcher who had
a career W-L record of 4-5 ?

Anyway, I completed this T207 set, and eventually sold it with the exception of this Chet "Red" Hoff card. I kept Hoff for several reasons.....he was part of my Yankees collection....
at the time of his death (1998), he was the oldest former Major League ballplayer at age 107....and, I loved that he said the highlight of his career as a 20-year old pitcher, the first
batter he faced, was Ty Cobb, and Hoff struck him out on three straight pitches.


.



T-Rex TED

T206 Reference
.

[Birken]

Ted,

I very much appreciate your post. The title of this post was intentionally designed to be controversial and illicit the debate that has followed. The truth is, there is no one greatest T set or any other baseball set for that matter as it is all subjective to those who collect.

Your parent's experience (my grandparents experience) were vastly different. Neither of us were alive during that time. All of our current experiences are shaped by our past or some knowledge thereof. My grandparents experience (as Irish immigrants) was like the movie "Gangs of New York", so this is what shapes my perceptions of the early 1900s in America...not a place I would want to live in.

I agree it was a great time of hope and new beginnings in America, but it was also a time of shortened life expectancy due to disease, unsanitary conditions, the world on the verge of WW 1, etc. For the wealthy, the experience was obviously different.

The T207s imo capture that feel very well or at least my perception of that time. While I belive that T206, T205, etc are beautiful full color cards, I think sometimes that they are almost too colorful and don't truly reflect the experiences of the masses in the early 1900s which is why I am drawn to T207s and the fact that i find it boring looking at the same Cobb pose again and again and again through multiple Tobacco and E sets. I hope that I have clarified my position to your satisfaction.

I like to learn and I do not judge.

Ben

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[Birken]

Ps. Ted

Love the Hoff and love the Lowder milk stats you provided...it's why this set is so stupidly awesome and why I love it so much. Yes, I admit, begrudgingly, it would have been nice if Cobb was represented in T207

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[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Birken

Ps. Ted

Love the Hoff and love the Lowder milk stats you provided...it's why this set is so stupidly awesome and why I love it so much. Yes, I admit, begrudgingly, it would have been nice if Cobb was represented in T207

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Ben

I was happy not having to chase after a Cobb when collecting the T207's. I was pleased to get a Smoky Joe Wood, Harry Hooper, Buck Weaver, and others not in the T206 set.

Actually, I have a theory regarding the printing of the T207 cards. I don't think they were printed at American Lithographic (as most of the T-cards of that era were). If so, this
may explain why Cobb, CYoung, etc. were not featured in the T207 set.

Furthermore, another tobacco set was issued in 1912.....the Imperial Tobacco (C46) set....which features Eastern (International) League players. And, these cards were printed
using different shades of brown ink. I have tried to find out what printing firm produced these cards, because it may have been the same one that printed the T207 set.




T-Rex TED

T206 Reference
.

[garymc]

I am an addicted New You American collector !
The one thing I like about the t207's is the lack of information creating interesting mysteries. One is, why are all the NYA's in the recruit class except the Hoff which is in the Broadleaf class. I'm sure whatever the reason is might be why the Hoff card is so tough. I'm also enjoying the hunt for the Napoleon backs, they are really tough to find. I only have two of them.
I also love this set !!!

[ronniehatesjazz]

Originally Posted by garymc

I am an addicted New You American collector !
The one thing I like about the t207's is the lack of information creating interesting mysteries. One is, why are all the NYA's in the recruit class except the Hoff which is in the Broadleaf class. I'm sure whatever the reason is might be why the Hoff card is so tough. I'm also enjoying the hunt for the Napoleon backs, they are really tough to find. I only have two of them.
I also love this set !!!

I love the americans and nationals lingo! I think we should bring it back. Would love to hear people talking about the Cincinnati nationals or Chicago americans.

[Luke]

I love this set too. I really wish more people collected it because that adds to the fun of it for me. When I find a rare T206, I can share my excitement with dozens of friends who feel the same way about the set. When I find a rare T207, I have one friend who really loves them, and a handful that will humor me but don't like really care for them.

[frohme]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Ben
[...]

Actually, I have a theory regarding the printing of the T207 cards. I don't think they were printed at American Lithographic (as most of the T-cards of that era were). If so, this may explain why Cobb, CYoung, etc. were not featured in the T207 set.

[...]

I can't help but agree with you on this Ted, primarily because we have evidence that the T207's (both Recruit and Broadleaf class) were printed on sheets both horizontally and vertically - similar to the Obaks (http://sep10.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=25005 - scroll to the bottom). I don't believe any of the current discussions or thinking around the T205/206 printing processes has suggested that link.

Just feels like (for that and other reasons) it wasn't the typical ATC/ALC production, so to speak. Regardless, there's still a lot to learn.

--
Mike

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by frohme

I can't help but agree with you on this Ted, primarily because we have evidence that the T207's (both Recruit and Broadleaf class) were printed on sheets both horizontally and vertically - similar to the Obaks (http://sep10.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=25005 - scroll to the bottom). I don't believe any of the current discussions or thinking around the T205/206 printing processes has suggested that link.

Just feels like (for that and other reasons) it wasn't the typical ATC/ALC production, so to speak. Regardless, there's still a lot to learn.

--
Mike

Hi Mike


Well, it's good to hear that you feel the same way I do regarding this set. I thought I was alone with my theory. Anyhow, I just haven't spent much time trying to research in depth
this set. The different T207 tobacco backs (different from T205/T206 backs) I think are the key to solving this mystery.



.



T-Rex TED

T206 Reference
.

[Birken]

Ted & Mike,

I too agree with your theories about this set. When you add in the Red Cross finds...Louisiana only distributed cards...it just gets weirder and weirder. I think sometimes that the T207 with Red Cross backs should almost have their own T classification similar to T214 Victory who used the same artwork of T206.One could argue that the same could be said for regular T207s and those T207s with the Red Cross back...just a thought.

BTW guys...love all the posts, pictures, information, knowledge, passion that you all have.

Ben

[topcat61]

I second your opinion. T207 is an amazing set beyond what we see on these cards. When I did research into this set, I found that the political climate and social attitudes of the era had seeped into this set directly affecting its outcome. The T207 and its players haven't given up all their secrets just yet and I haven't seen every card in person either - which makes it fun.