Scarcity ratio of PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG BACKS FOR ELITE 11

[mike c]

This is my first post and items may have discussed before. The elite 11 T206 cards come with both PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs. It appears from my limited evaluation of EBAY listing that PIEDMONT 350 backs sell for considerably more money than EPDG backs. From just the PSA population report some items are much rarer with PIEDMONT 350 backs like Mullin ( 4 PIEDMONT 13 EPDG) and Spencer (1 PIEDMONT 9 EPDG) . However some cards are the nearly the same rarity level and in the case of Ganley ( 7 PIEDMONT 5 EPDG) it is scarer with the EPDG back yet the Piedmont 350 appears to sell for more. I realize this is a small sample size. Has anyone done a detail evaluation of the relative scarcity of these back from grading services population reports, auctions, EBAY etc?
I am also curious why Al Shaw was not included in the elite 11 group.

[Jantz]

Some collectors consider Al Shaw as part of the Elite group.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by mike c

This is my first post and items may have discussed before. The elite 11 T206 cards come with both PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs. It appears from my limited evaluation of EBAY listing that PIEDMONT 350 backs sell for considerably more money than EPDG backs. From just the PSA population report some items are much rarer with PIEDMONT 350 backs like Mullin ( 4 PIEDMONT 13 EPDG) and Spencer (1 PIEDMONT 9 EPDG) . However some cards are the nearly the same rarity level and in the case of Ganley ( 7 PIEDMONT 5 EPDG) it is scarer with the EPDG back yet the Piedmont 350 appears to sell for more. I realize this is a small sample size. Has anyone done a detail evaluation of the relative scarcity of these back from grading services population reports, auctions, EBAY etc?
I am also curious why Al Shaw was not included in the elite 11 group.

Mike

I've studied these 11 guys since 2007: Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY...... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180

And, very recently: Regional source of the Elite 11 cards...... Post #198 in http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...237816&page=20

My surveys regarding the "Elite Eleven" indicate that there are no precise comparisons with their PIEDMONT 350 (P350) backs vs. their EPDG backs. Some subjects are found
with more P350 than EPDG; and, others with more EPDG than P350. For example: I have had 3 - Lundgren's with P350 backs, and only 1 with an EPDG back.
While I have had only one P350 of Lindaman, and 4 - EPDG cards of him.








Note
The Schulte card has not yet been found with an EPDG back. Currently, I do not consider Schulte as an Elite 11 subject. When (and if) this card is found with an EPDG back,
then I will officially include him in this group.


TED Z
.

[Tao_Moko]

I have completed back runs for three of the eleven and would have two complete for one player were it not for a second epdg. Personal observations(not relying on flawed pop reports) is that the epdg's are generally more scarce, but to what extent is tough to know with such a small number of each to factor in. Interesting side note - the Sov backs for these guys that have them are not in abundance either.

[dougscats]

Are the elite 11 EPDG's rarer than other EPDG's?

If not, are the elite 11 EPDG's valued the same as other EPDG's,
or do they carry more value simply because they are Elite 11's?

[tedzan]

Hi Doug

The Lundgren sells for more than a typical EPDG card, simply because Lundgren is a tough card to begin with.

The other subjects in the Elite 11 group will vary in cost depending if the seller is aware of their "scarcity", or just considers them as a common T206.


TED Z
.

[Thromdog]

They do typically sell for a premium over other EPDGs but the scarcity question versus other EPDGs is questionable. I personally think the Piedmont 350's are much tougher to find and their pricing reflects it.

However, the EPDG versions definitely get a premium.

I think the scarcity of elite 11 EPDGs might be answered better from this thread below. Logically if the EPDGs were printed before the Piedmont 350's then there would be a somewhat consistent amount of elite 11 EPDGs as other 150/350 or 350 only cards that are available with EPDG backs.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=231030

[tedzan]

We have established (circa 2007) that the initial EPDG press runs were simultaneous with the initial press runs of the PIEDMONT 350 backs of the 150/350 series cards.

And, NOT prior to the initial PIEDMONT 350 press runs of the 150/350 series cards.

I could elaborate more on this, but I have to run out for now.


TED Z
.

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by dougscats

Are the elite 11 EPDG's rarer than other EPDG's?

If not, are the elite 11 EPDG's valued the same as other EPDG's,
or do they carry more value simply because they are Elite 11's?

Some are. Lundgren and Ganley for certain. I don't believe sold prices are a good reference as they are sometimes overlooked. Ted has published a good bit on this topic. You can search through the threads.

[frankbmd]

with the havana back this example is clearly one of the elite once.

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

with the havana back this example is clearly one of the elite once.

I haven't gone after that back run but you have a good start. You want to trade? I don't just have eggs! Have grass fed beef cattle too. Organic, North Icelandic kelp fed girls. Here are some of them upside down for some reason from this morning.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

I haven't gone after that back run but you have a good start. You want to trade? I don't just have eggs! Have grass fed beef cattle too. Organic, North Icelandic kelp fed girls. Here are some of them upside down for some reason from this morning.

No comprende. Habla espanol?

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

No comprende. Habla espanol?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...45#post1673245

[mybuddyinc]

Interesting topic.

Just did a quick chart of PSA Pops (included Schulte, based on having a Pied.350, but not for analysis):

Elite11chart.jpg

As seen, 9 of 11 subjects have Piedmont 350 scarcer than EPDG (some by quite a bit). Only Ganley EPDG scarcer, and Ewing even. Of the 11, only 2 (Ewing and Jones) have Hindu scarcer than other two backs.

Although I didn't put it on the chart, Sovereign 150s are also a bit tougher, in to 10-15 population range.

I don't have any Pied. 350s of any of them, but a few Hindus and EPDGs. I round out my "mid-tier" Elite 11's with three SC 150/649OPS (as an aside, these three are the only Elite 11 with the SC150/649 back )

elite11me.jpg

Fun, fun, Scott

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by mybuddyinc

Interesting topic.

Just did a quick chart of PSA Pops (included Schulte, based on having a Pied.350, but not for analysis):

Attachment 289469

As seen, 9 of 11 subjects have Piedmont 350 scarcer than EPDG (some by quite a bit). Only Ganley EPDG scarcer, and Ewing even. Of the 11, only 2 (Ewing and Jones) have Hindu scarcer than other two backs.

Although I didn't put it on the chart, Sovereign 150s are also a bit tougher, in to 10-15 population range.

I don't have any Pied. 350s of any of them, but a few Hindus and EPDGs. I round out my "mid-tier" Elite 11's with three SC 150/649OPS (as an aside, these three are the only Elite 11 with the SC150/649 back )

Attachment 289468

Fun, fun, Scott

At least four of those on the pop report have been busted out by me and resold and I believe reslabbed. As I mentioned earlier, the Sov for these guys are tougher. I had an easier time sourcing the Hindu's. When I was putting these runs together I gave up on some but believe the following to be accurate in order of toughness:
Lundgren - EPDG more difficult than PD350
Ganley - PD350 then EPDG, Sov, Brown Hindu and SC150 fact30.
Jones - I believe PD350 may edge out the EPDG

[Luke]

I agree with Jeff. The EPDGs are much easier to find than the P350s for these 11 poses. Probably at a 2:1 (EPDG:P350) ratio or higher.

Everyone will have their own experiences though. Ted says he's owned 4 Piedmont 350s and only 1 EPDG. My experience the last 5 years is I've seen only one Piedmont 350 Lundgren and about 6/7 EPDGs come up for sale. 3 or 4 of them in the past few months.

At one point about a year ago, me and Jeff owned 5 different Tom Jones EPDGs between us, and 3 others have been on ebay in the last year. I've never even seen a P350 in that same time-frame.

Obviously these poses were pulled from the P350 print run early, but I don't think the same can be said about EPDGs. I think most, if not all of these poses were printed with EPDG backs for the duration of the print run. Only Dahlen seems to be truly rare. That could be because he was pulled early, or just due to the random variance of a normal distribution.

People have posted on net54 in the past that these 11 are tougher to find with EDPG than other EPDGs but the Pop numbers don't support that. Guys like Turner, Criger, Abbaticchio brown sleeves, Overall portrait are tougher to find than most of these 11 poses.

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by Luke

I agree with Jeff. The EPDGs are much easier to find than the P350s for these 11 poses. Probably at a 2:1 (EPDG:P350) ratio or higher.

Everyone will have their own experiences though. Ted says he's owned 4 Piedmont 350s and only 1 EPDG. My experience the last 5 years is I've seen only one Piedmont 350 Lundgren and about 6/7 EPDGs come up for sale. 3 or 4 of them in the past few months.

At one point about a year ago, me and Jeff owned 5 different Tom Jones EPDGs between us, and 3 others have been on ebay in the last year. I've never even seen a P350 in that same time-frame.

Obviously these poses were pulled from the P350 print run early, but I don't think the same can be said about EPDGs. I think most, if not all of these poses were printed with EPDG backs for the duration of the print run. Only Dahlen seems to be truly rare. That could be because he was pulled early, or just due to the random variance of a normal distribution.

People have posted on net54 in the past that these 11 are tougher to find with EDPG than other EPDGs but the Pop numbers don't support that. Guys like Turner, Criger, Abbaticchio brown sleeves, Overall portrait are tougher to find than most of these 11 poses.

Surprised to hear that about Jones. Having 5 not in circulation changes my opinion. On the other hand, I've had 3 PD350 Lundgrens at once which is a card with about a dozen known. I would challenge that the EPDG is more prevalant than the PD350's for him. I own about 60 Ganley's and have tracked them for several years. A PD350 Ganley is really tough. I gave up on the Dahlen run.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Luke

Everyone will have their own experiences though. Ted says he's owned 4 Piedmont 350s and only 1 EPDG. My experience the last 5 years is I've seen only one Piedmont 350 Lundgren and about 6/7 EPDGs come up for sale. 3 or 4 of them in the past few months.



Only Dahlen seems to be truly rare. That could be because he was pulled early, or just due to the random variance of a normal distribution.

Hey Luke

Your having seen one Lundgren / P350 in 5 years is luckier than most T206 collectors have been.

Incidently, it's 3 Lundgren's (not 4). I have been collecting T206's since 1981; therefore, acquiring only 3 - P350 Lundgren's in 36 years is certainly
proof that this front/back combo is very, very tough.

Furthermore, my experience collecting these guys is......Dahlen (Boston) is the toughest (next to Spencer) of the Elite 11. My theory explaining this
is that American Litho stopped printing the Dahlen (Boston) card since he changed teams (Boston, then Brooklyn) in late October 1909.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

We have established (circa 2007) that the initial EPDG press runs were simultaneous with the initial press runs of the PIEDMONT 350 backs of the 150/350 series cards.

And, NOT prior to the initial PIEDMONT 350 press runs of the 150/350 series cards.

I could elaborate more on this, but I have to run out for now.


TED Z
.

Ted,

When you have time can you explain the reason that you think the 150/350
EPDG's were definitely printed simultaneously with the Piedmont 350's
and not before.

I'm kind of on the fence with my opinion but I lean more towards them
being printed before. They do have characteristics of both the 150 and 350
series.

The Frank Owen example supports them possibly being printed before but
the explanation for that could be a matter of that particular plate being used
for the EPDG's and not the PD350's. However there are around a dozen 150/350
subjects with front flaws on 150 series backs that I follow closely.
All of them are found on more than 1 back and together they cover all the
backs that the 150 series was printed on including Hindu. EPDG is the only back
that was used for the 350 series that I've found one of these flaws on.
I haven't found any of these on a PD350 or any other back used for the 350 series.

I can't say that the 150/350 EPDG's were definitely printed before the PD350's but until
I find one of the flaws on another 350 series back or I see more evidence
that they were printed simultaneously with the PD350's I will lean towards
these EPDG's being printed before the PD350's.

[Luke]

I'd love to see that as well. I assume EPDGs were printed before Piedmont 350s just based on the fact that most of these "Elite 11" guys seem to have been printed for the entire run, while they were clearly pulled early from Piedmont 350 production. Seems logical based on that to assume that the EPDG run finished before or about the same time that the Piedmont 350 run began production. But it there are facts to prove otherwise, I'm very interested to know about them.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

We have established (circa 2007) that the initial EPDG press runs were simultaneous with the initial press runs of the PIEDMONT 350 backs of the 150/350 series cards.

And, NOT prior to the initial PIEDMONT 350 press runs of the 150/350 series cards.

I could elaborate more on this, but I have to run out for now.


TED Z
.

Ted, could you please reveal what led to the conclusion that the printing of
the 150/350 EPDG's couldn't have started before the printing of the PD350's.
I have read some of the EPDG threads from 2006-07 and I didn't find any
definitive proof that they couldn't have been.

[steve B]

I think that the numbers involved would heavily favor simultaneous production, at least in part of not entirely.

I really dislike the 150/350 combined print group. There's so much indication that there's what should be a clear divide between the 150's and 350's.

But as it goes with T206, there are always exceptions.
I believe this group was from sheets that were 150 sheets destined to be for EPDG. When the print job for EP was done, there would have been leftover sheets with no back printing. I believe those sheets were eventually run with P350 backs to save time and materials. That's not an uncommon thing. They'd have printed some extra fronts, to cover themselves against the eventual ones that were ruined in production. If production went well, and the EPGD back printing went well there could have been a decent stack of leftovers. Since the Piedmont orders would have been huge they'd have had Piedmonts running almost constantly. After the change to P350, any EPDG order would be a new order and probably set up for 350's since the 150 front stones were probably resurfaced to make 350 fronts. If there were enough leftovers and enough time between EPDG orders the sensible thing would have been to print P350 backs on them to use them up.

The fun question is this-
Given that the plate was probably more than 11 players, at least 12, maybe 17, maybe more, what other players were on this sheet?
They'd be players that were in EPDG for the 150 series but got carried over to 350. If the differences between 150s and 350's get sorted we'll probably find 1 or 6 or 13 or 23 more cards that are what should be 150 fronts but have 350 backs and that are just as tough as these 11.

Steve B

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

I think that the numbers involved would heavily favor simultaneous production, at least in part of not entirely.

I really dislike the 150/350 combined print group. There's so much indication that there's what should be a clear divide between the 150's and 350's.

But as it goes with T206, there are always exceptions.
I believe this group was from sheets that were 150 sheets destined to be for EPDG. When the print job for EP was done, there would have been leftover sheets with no back printing. I believe those sheets were eventually run with P350 backs to save time and materials. That's not an uncommon thing. They'd have printed some extra fronts, to cover themselves against the eventual ones that were ruined in production. If production went well, and the EPGD back printing went well there could have been a decent stack of leftovers. Since the Piedmont orders would have been huge they'd have had Piedmonts running almost constantly. After the change to P350, any EPDG order would be a new order and probably set up for 350's since the 150 front stones were probably resurfaced to make 350 fronts. If there were enough leftovers and enough time between EPDG orders the sensible thing would have been to print P350 backs on them to use them up.

The fun question is this-
Given that the plate was probably more than 11 players, at least 12, maybe 17, maybe more, what other players were on this sheet?
They'd be players that were in EPDG for the 150 series but got carried over to 350. If the differences between 150s and 350's get sorted we'll probably find 1 or 6 or 13 or 23 more cards that are what should be 150 fronts but have 350 backs and that are just as tough as these 11.

Steve B

Hi Steve,

I can't think of a way that it could be proven whether some of the 150/350 EPDG's
were printed before the PD350's but Ted is saying they have established
that they were not printed before the PD350's and I'm curious what
led them to conclude this.

I do believe that at some point they were printed simultaneously but based on
the numbers and some print flaws I think the printing of the EPDG's started
before the PD350's and ended around the same time for the 150/350 subjects
but that just my opinion.

I'm not sure if it matters because we do know that the sheet layouts changed but
I have Karger, Lindaman, Mullin, and Schaefer on one plate scratch sheet
together and Shaw and Ganley are on a different sheet while Dahlen is on a third sheet.
I haven't found any scratches on Ewing, Jones, Lundgren, or Spencer. Schulte
is also on the same plate scratch sheet as Dahlen.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Steve,

I can't think of a way that it could be proven whether some of the 150/350 EPDG's
were printed before the PD350's but Ted is saying they have established
that they were not printed before the PD350's and I'm curious what
led them to conclude this.

I do believe that at some point they were printed simultaneously but based on
the numbers and some print flaws I think the printing of the EPDG's started
before the PD350's and ended around the same time for the 150/350 subjects
but that just my opinion.

I'm not sure if it matters because we do know that the sheet layouts changed but
I have Karger, Lindaman, Mullin, and Schaefer on one plate scratch sheet
together and Shaw and Ganley are on a different sheet while Dahlen is on a third sheet.
I haven't found any scratches on Ewing, Jones, Lundgren, or Spencer. Schulte
is also on the same plate scratch sheet as Dahlen.

This is how I see it as well. It would be surprising to me if Ted really does have that proof, but if so I want to see it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Steve,

I can't think of a way that it could be proven whether some of the 150/350 EPDG's
were printed before the PD350's but Ted is saying they have established
that they were not printed before the PD350's and I'm curious what
led them to conclude this.

I do believe that at some point they were printed simultaneously but based on
the numbers and some print flaws I think the printing of the EPDG's started
before the PD350's and ended around the same time for the 150/350 subjects
but that just my opinion.

I'm not sure if it matters because we do know that the sheet layouts changed but
I have Karger, Lindaman, Mullin, and Schaefer on one plate scratch sheet
together and Shaw and Ganley are on a different sheet while Dahlen is on a third sheet.
I haven't found any scratches on Ewing, Jones, Lundgren, or Spencer. Schulte
is also on the same plate scratch sheet as Dahlen.

Just taking a quick look at a couple cards, and neither works as proof of earlier production. Conroy fielding has a 150/350 divide, but isn't known with EPDG. It looks like some of the 649OPs are known with EPDG, Powers would prove EPDG printing before the 350 series, but that's also not a card that's confirmed.

I'll have a better look and see what I can figure out. A card like the Conroy where there's a clear 150 and 350 that exists with EPDG for the 150 version would mostly prove production before most 350's

The work you've done with the scratches has already proven a lot of stuff that wasn't at all easy to prove any other way.

I think mapping less obvious differences along with matching fronts to backs will show us some more interesting stuff. It already proved useful with a couple fake Magies.

Steve B

[Luke]

Steve, can you explain what is different about a Conroy with a 150 back and a Conroy with a 350 back? I've tried looking at mine when I was doing a back run, and the only differences I could see was the 350 Series cards look more "washed out" which is pretty common.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Luke

Steve, can you explain what is different about a Conroy with a 150 back and a Conroy with a 350 back? I've tried looking at mine when I was doing a back run, and the only differences I could see was the 350 Series cards look more "washed out" which is pretty common.

Conroy fielding has either got stripes for the seams on the hat or not.

Scot Reader asked about it a few? couple? years ago, and the backs pretty much came down as 150 for one and 350 for the other. There was one supposed outlier, but looking at the scan on Ebay I didn't think it was.

Steve B

[Luke]

Ok, that's why mine didn't look any different. Both my Old Mill and SC 350/25 have stripes, although they are lighter. Both cards have the "washed out" or "faded" look to them. Maybe you guys just saw some washed out copies and the stripes weren't noticeable? Or maybe the stripes are more prominent on with some backs than others.

Can't get my Old Mill to upload for some reason, but here is the SC 350/25:

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Luke

Ok, that's why mine didn't look any different. Both my Old Mill and SC 350/25 have stripes, although they are lighter. Both cards have the "washed out" or "faded" look to them. Maybe you guys just saw some washed out copies and the stripes weren't noticeable? Or maybe the stripes are more prominent on with some backs than others.

Can't get my Old Mill to upload for some reason, but here is the SC 350/25:

Interesting, we'll have to revisit those in more detail.

The lines are very clear on 150's.

I just checked mine, and it's also an SC 350/25 and has no lines. Even under 40X there's no trace of them.
In looking at cards on Ebay, there was one decent scan of a 150 with them, and it didn't seem to have any gray shading on the cap, which mine has.

I'll get a pic of the area, and put it up.

On the plus side, we may learn a bit about the progression, Stronger lines, lighter, maybe from plate wear, then no lines. The gray/no gray would be a change too. And some subset of those cards I think will prove to be a lot less common.
On the down side, this probably eliminates the one clear same subject cutoff between 150 and 350, which complicates things.
Ah well, the monster continues to surprise and confound even where you think you've cornered it.

Steve B

[steve B]

Here's the one I have.



And the closeup.



Compared to this 150, there are a lot of smaller differences, like the ear being shaded differently.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...oAAOSwIjJZVbIw

Steve B

[Pat R]

Steve,
Here are a couple of 350's A Piedmont and a SC350/30 with pretty strong
lines.

Conroy PD350.jpg

Conroy SC350-30.jpg

[steve B]

Am I seeing the details right? The Piedmont has the gray shading but the SC doesn't? It looks like the Piedmont also has the shading that divides the arm from the green field and the shaded ear while the SC is more like mine.


Obviously that clear 150/350 divide isn't clear at all.

And you know you guys are making me buy a bunch of Conroys just to look for differences?

Steve B

[Luke]

Haha, sorry to make you buy more T206s Steve!

Here's my Old Mill. The lines are almost gone, but not quite.