1900s Silver Figural Baseball Music Box

[ruth-gehrig]

SCP's version sold last month for $22,000
http://catalog.scpauctions.com/EXCEP...-LOT31617.aspx

While one sold on ebay last night for not quite $2300
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Fred...vip=true&rt=nc

Was SCP's selling price just the result of a ridiculous bidding war between 2 agressive bidders or did someone get a fantastic buy on eBay last night??

[MGHPro]

They've sold between 13000 and 30000 in major auctions . I was the under bidder and I was aware of what the last one sold for . Personally I think they were made much later than the early 1900s. I think they are from the 40's possibly 50's and that's why I couldn't commit myself to go any higher . I also think that many more will begin to surface . However , if you haven't seen one in person they are very impressive . Much bigger than you would expect . Congrats to whoever bought it though
Matt

[bobfreedman]

I was fortunate enough to be the high bidder. I was the underbidder in Legendary when it sold for $18k and dropped out in SCP's auction at $15k. I was very excited to win this at a relative bargain price. Now, to make sure the seller delivers....

[sporteq]

I don't recall the auction house, but about a two decades ago, they had the same music box putting the year in 1940s. Another auction house had it the 20s. Everyone else, puts the piece in the dead-ball era. Whatever the year it was produced, they still command big money.

what a good "buy!"

Albert

[sporteq]

Oh damn.. nice Bob!

Albert

[bgar3]

A very nice piece regardless of date. Perhaps the attached card with this one can help date it.

[murphusa]

Fred Zimbalist & Co was from Cleveland Ohio, it imported Thoren Music Boxes from Switzerland and encased them in etched silver and silver plated boxes that they had made in India. The company started in mid 1940’s and was sold in 2013

All of the boxes were handmade and no two were the same.

A similar music box was sold at auction on 3/7/2013 for $1,011.00, this box still played "Take me out to the Ballgame"

[sporteq]

Jim- nice intel

Albert

[CarltonHendricks]

Originally Posted by sporteq

Jim- nice intel

Albert

Agreed...good intel indeed

[bobfreedman]

Originally Posted by murphusa

Fred Zimbalist & Co was from Cleveland Ohio, it imported Thoren Music Boxes from Switzerland and encased them in etched silver and silver plated boxes that they had made in India. The company started in mid 1940’s and was sold in 2013

All of the boxes were handmade and no two were the same.

A similar music box was sold at auction on 3/7/2013 for $1,011.00, this box still played "Take me out to the Ballgame"

Great info Jim, thanks!

Which auction was it that you saw that it sold for $1000?

[vintagesportscollector]

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/A...nclosedbuy&p=0

[vintagesportscollector]

Carlton first noted this box in his 2006 National write up:

http://www.sportsantiques101.com/06natpage3.htm

Search "Music Box" in Hunts completed auctions and you will see a few (or the same one sold multiple times). Hunts attributed it to the 1920s. SCP and Lengendary implied or stated Turn of Century.

Seems the key is knowing it is a Fred Zimbalist piece, which would put it in the 40s/50s. In the absence of that knowledge, any earlier guess on age seems understandable. However....this group (Jim in particular) could immediatelly date this to the 40s while SCP and Legendary couldn't do some basic homework? Is it possible not all these are Zimbalist? the Ebay one doesn't have a sticker, so how did that seller know it was Zimbalist, or are they just assuming? (the Thorens pamphlet does look 40s/50s).

Either way absolutely gorgeous piece, (wish I saw it on ebay), but seems $3-5K is more in line than $15-30K.

[bobfreedman]

Originally Posted by vintagesportscollector

Carlton first noted this box in his 2006 National write up:

http://www.sportsantiques101.com/06natpage3.htm

Search "Music Box" in Hunts completed auctions and you will see a few (or the same one sold multiple times). Hunts attributed it to the 1920s. SCP and Lengendary implied or stated Turn of Century.

Seems the key is knowing it is a Fred Zimbalist piece, which would put it in the 40s/50s. In the absence of that knowledge, any earlier guess on age seems understandable. However....this group (Jim in particular) could immediatelly date this to the 40s while SCP and Legendary couldn't do some basic homework? Is it possible not all these are Zimbalist? the Ebay one doesn't have a sticker, so how did that seller know it was Zimbalist, or are they just assuming? (the Thorens pamphlet does look 40s/50s).

Either way absolutely gorgeous piece, (wish I saw it on ebay), but seems $3-5K is more in line than $15-30K.

Joe, without trying to sound defensive I don't think that you can discount the last three prices of this exact same trophy? The last three have have all been north of $15k and for you to say that $3k - $5k is more in line does not take into account supply and demand and the fact that we now have three data points (excluding the one I bought on eBay because the seller badly miscategorized the piece) that say you are wrong. As with all memorabilia they have their ebbs and flows and this is no different but the prices are definitely trending in the $15k range.

You can go back and take a look at some of the past trophies in REA or any other AH and see that Spalding trophies or the very nice looking trophies that the prices have been trending upwards, IF you can find them nowadays. While I do not dispute your knowledge, I do dispute your value of these pieces.

[vintagesportscollector]

Fair points Bob, and I wouldn't dispute anything that you have said. We all value things differently. For me the knowledge that it is from the 40's/50s, and not much earlier (as the previous three auctions claimed), was paramount to my opinion. You can say I am wrong - and considering I knew nothing of this Box before this thread, chances are I am wrong - every piece of memorablia has different opinions on value.

We can't dispute we have learned more about this piece in this thread, than previously known, which should only serve to better help everyone value. There are now several data points on this piece, but this is what seems to be the trend for me...when it was known to be a Zimbalist piece from the 40s, it goes cheaper than when purported to be much earlier.

As I stated its absoutely stunning, and again congrats!! Either way I think you got a greal deal. You should feel excited..I would be too.

[murphusa]

The other way you can date it is by the music box maker as they were sold and or merged a few times in their 130 year old history.

as such their name changed over the years on the paperwork for their music devices while always being know by the founders name

Their turntables are fantastic

On the price of the item. Bob I would be patting myself on the back knowing that I had only paid what you did and not the $15,000 or upwards based on a bad description.

The non baseball boxes from this maker sell now for $750 to $1250 depending on design. Their boxes of the
Taj are fabulous and demand a good price but no near $15,000

[perezfan]

The only remaining fact possibly worth noting is that there are 2 styles of this great piece. The far rarer (and apparently more expensive) of the two has period baseball players etched into 3 sides of the "Baseball" portion.

Very attractive engraving, though I am not sure if it was manufactured this way, or if the former owner had the etching professionally done (after the initial sale). Many period silver items such as Walking Canes, Pitchers and Trophies had professional engraving added at a later date...

That said, here are the two examples, from Legendary's Site...

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...ntoryid=167006

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...ntoryid=117953


Lastly, it appears there is a FOOTBALL version. Unfortunately Legendary has no image of it. But the description suggests that it might have been produced by the same company, in identical/matching fashion...

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...ventoryid=6197

[murphusa]

here is the football one. Hunts sold one a few years ago for $1,800. As you can see the player is similar to the baseball figure on the one Mark posted. The other difference is there are two sizes on is a 9" and one an 11" model on the baseball.

[bobfreedman]

Wow, what a great piece as well

[Shoeless Moe]

So are these definitely then from the 40's/50's?

Were any of these from the early 1900's as advertised by SCP, Legendary (I can't imagine they would lie), 22K-30K......or were American Memorabilia & Hunts correct and the more realistic value is closer to their 1000-2000?

That's such a big difference. And for the couple that paid those high prices, not like it matters to someone who could afford to spend 20/30K on a music box but did they buy something incorrectly advertised? Caveat Emptor as Mr Brady would say. Was it the 1900 dating in their listings that caused the prices to skyrocket? The SCP winner just last month might have a huge beef, if their's just plummeted 20K in less then a month.

Bob you might be lucky on another front, that you were runner up and didn't shell out 15-16K on an item worth less than that.....but is it still your white whale or off-white if none of these are early 1900? Still a great item, but I'm curious.

[bobfreedman]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

So are these definitely then from the 40's/50's?

Were any of these from the early 1900's as advertised by SCP, Legendary (I can't imagine they would lie), 22K-30K......or were American Memorabilia & Hunts correct and the more realistic value is closer to their 1000-2000?

That's such a big difference. And for the couple that paid those high prices, not like it matters to someone who could afford to spend 20/30K on a music box but did they buy something incorrectly advertised? Caveat Emptor as Mr Brady would say.

Bob you might be lucky on 2 fronts, one you were runner up and didn't shell out 15-16K on an item worth less than that, and 2 that you got a deal and your white whale.....but is your white whale off white if none of these are early 1900?

Paul, I had the same conversation with another board member about getting it for $2300 vs. $15k and above. Regardless the piece is gorgeous and while some of the shine may have come off of the purchase, I am very happy with my purchase and have no regrets (the story would not have been the same had I paid $15k+ for it).

I do believe that the pieces are rare and still in very high demand that they still will bring strong prices in the future.

[Shoeless Moe]

http://www.100percentauthentic.com/C...E--77049/77049


$242????

[bobfreedman]

That does not look like the one I purchased

[Shoeless Moe]

So is possible these were made at 2 different time frames, 2 different companies?

[bobfreedman]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

So is possible these were made at 2 different time frames, 2 different companies?

I believe that is very possible, the one for $242 looks smaller and generally cheaper IMHO

[Shoeless Moe]

That make more sense that there is an older more expensive version and a newer (40's/50's) knockoff version, still worth a grand or 2, but looks like yours is of the nicer version.

[murphusa]

Boy are you guys tough.

Remember what I said before, no two are alike they were hand etched

In the last 20 years only 6 examples have come to puBlic sale

Hunt was the first to offer that I can find and theirs was the one from the Wrigley family or so they say because it has a W on the home plate section. It sold for $9500

Hunt then sold a different one for $8500. This one was then resold for $13,145 at Legendary in 8/11
It was also sold again last month for $22,000

Hunt also sold another for $6,500 which was different than all the others as the home plate was engraved

The one that sold for $1011 with a $242 estimate from an authenticator was the smaller version made inn the 50's. I know this because the movement has the same turners as other thorns boxes from the 50's

The $26,290 one with the player is also a 40's style, again based on the music box winder

Bob great buy the other night was different from all the others. It is the larger size. Due to the movements winder it was made in the 40's as we're all the above except for the 1011 example.

In my opinion, he stole it as we say. This example is in the same class as the $22,000 and the $26,000 boxes.

In a major auction it is my opinion that he would equal those prices.

[vintagesportscollector]

This is an interesting debate/discussion. Still a bit of mystery on this…but two things we can all agree on…1)It is a great piece, and 2)Bob got it at a great price. (and 3..Jim has done great research on these Thorn pieces )

However, the $22K and $26K boxes were listed as much earlier, not 40s. (Jim – you said yourself in a previous post..” Bob I would be patting myself on the back knowing that I had only paid what you did and not the $15,000 or upwards based on a bad description”).

So, do we think the box would equal those prices if correctly described as the 40s? I don’t know and won’t pretend to know (and for Bob’s sake hope it would go in that class), but curious to what people’s thoughts are. Seems based on the posters in this thread we have some that think it would go high, and others that have serious doubt.

In my opinion the difference in the dating can very significantly alter the price. I can see the same seller who previously paid $22K/26K having serious concern learning this was 40’s, and not much earlier as described. Even Bob said “I am very happy with my purchase and have no regrets (the story would not have been the same had I paid $15k+ for it)”..so it would seem even the value in Bob's eyes is somewhat diminished learning of the 40s date.

Again just curious on everyones thoughts now, as we all seem to be changing our “tune” (pun intended ) on this piece.

Not trying to drag Bob through the mud..actually I think we are all celebrating this piece, and his pickup, and are engaged in the discovery with Bob. I agree super rare, high demand and will command a strong price, but $22 -26K?..wow!

[bobfreedman]

Joe. What I had meant by my comment was that if I had paid $15k for one in the last auction (or north of that) and someone bought this one for $2300, I would feel sick about spending $13k more for something that had just sold 10 days ago. Had I not won this one I would still be on the lookout for one and be willing to go after it and pay up to $15k for it. I think that the market for this is around $15 - $25k.

[murphusa]

As I did more research on the boxes I changer my mind.

Except in very rare cases, in the baseball memorabilia world the collector paying $26,000 for a music box does not do so on impulse.

They have a very good idea on what they are buying.

The information on the boxes is out there

If you take an hour you could find the real story and then make a decession on your purchase

What disturbes us is the $26,000 buyer is not know to us so we can't ask him/her

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

Joe. What I had meant by my comment was that if I had paid $15k for one in the last auction (or north of that) and someone bought this one for $2300, I would feel sick about spending $13k more for something that had just sold 10 days ago. Had I not won this one I would still be on the lookout for one and be willing to go after it and pay up to $15k for it. I think that the market for this is around $15 - $25k.

Ok. My apologies for misinterpreting your quote(and putting words in your mouth .) So that fact that this is now known to be a 40's piece, and not much earlier as previously thought, doesn't diminish the value for you? not poking, just curious, because if the same can be said for other people in the market, then I absolutely agree with you Bob that the market is $15-25K.

[Shoeless Moe]

We won't know until the next one goes to auction and it's listed as its true date of 40's 50's, then my guess is 5K-15K (pretty broad range yes......but who doesn't like a pretty broad)

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by murphusa

As I did more research on the boxes I changer my mind.

Except in very rare cases, in the baseball memorabilia world the collector paying $26,000 for a music box does not do so on impulse.

They have a very good idea on what they are buying.

Not necessarily, people still buy bad autographs and forgeries all the time, big dollar ones too, the rich don't do a 100th the research some on here do, they trust the auction house and don't question them or when they list an an estimate next to it.

[murphusa]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Not necessarily, people still buy bad autographs and forgeries all the time, big dollar ones too, the rich don't do a 100th the research some on here do, they trust the auction house and don't question them or when they list an an estimate next to it.

Smart people with money have people do their research for them

They don't rely on auction descriptions

Smarter people with the ability to do research can make a good living doing the above.

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by murphusa

As I did more research on the boxes I changer my mind.

Except in very rare cases, in the baseball memorabilia world the collector paying $26,000 for a music box does not do so on impulse.

They have a very good idea on what they are buying.

The information on the boxes is out there

If you take an hour you could find the real story and then make a decession on your purchase

What disturbes us is the $26,000 buyer is not know to us so we can't ask him/her

Great point Jim, but in this case I am not so sure. As I stated earlier, the key is knowing this was a Zimbalist. Without that key piece of info, it would be very understandable to assume early 1900s (I would have).

What led to your research (keep me honest), was the Ebay listing said Zimbalist. Without that would we have any clue on the story of these boxes? I am not so sure the buyers had a very good idea on what they are buying. We have all seen more than enough examples where a buyer had more dollars than "sense" and overpaid for an item that later the knowledgeble people on this board called out.

Are we also than saying SCP and Legendary or the seller couldn't take an hour to find the real story and thus deceived? I am not saying that becuase I don't think any previous auction or buyer knew this was a Zimbalist or Thorn. Jim - Keep me honest as you did the research..but what led you to the real story?

[murphusa]

I was a bidder on the item. The listing was under music boxes 1940 to 1970's category

I looked it up and saw that the price on boxes made by Fred sold in the $750 to $ 1250.00 area. I based my bidding on that and not on other auctions as I did not know of them

After I saw the sold price I looked some more and found the others. Then the post here led me to more. Today I looked up all I could find and was able to compare all 6 that had sold.

I own a Thorne turntable that is pure heaven to listen too. They also made some of those great large metal records from the 1890's so I knew them.

I find this all fun to do.

Bottom line, if i saw bobs auction today I would have made the effort to get the money together to give it a run to at least $9500 and would have sent it to REA for the fall if I had won

[bobfreedman]

Jim, that would not have won the piece, my snipe was for well over that. I also actually had visions of winning this for less than $200 for 6 days, 23 hours and 55 minutes .

[murphusa]

Here is something to discuss. All three hunt boxes are described as 1920's The second Hunt box sold for $8500 in July 2008. And then twice more to $22,000

If it was auctioned 3 month latter in October 2008 would it have sold for half that with the monetary collapse?

Most likely not but what $2,300. Just maybe

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by murphusa

I was a bidder on the item. The listing was under music boxes 1940 to 1970's category

I looked it up and saw that the price on boxes made by Fred sold in the $750 to $ 1250.00 area. I based my bidding on that and not on other auctions as I did not know of them

After I saw the sold price I looked some more and found the others. Then the post here led me to more. Today I looked up all I could find and was able to compare all 6 that had sold.

I own a Thorne turntable that is pure heaven to listen too. They also made some of those great large metal records from the 1890's so I knew them.

I find this all fun to do.

Bottom line, if i saw bobs auction today I would have made the effort to get the money together to give it a run to at least $9500 and would have sent it to REA for the fall if I had won

Ok, good to know and thanks for sharing. So even knowing it was 40s you would have bid $10k -well that immediatelly sets a floor. My only point is how much the knowledge of it being 40s would set a ceiling considerably below previous sales of $22/26K (maybe not at all). The previous auctions did not have the luxury of being correctly listed as "Music Boves 40 -70", nor "Fred Z.", nor "Thorn", so that is my point that any previous auction that you saw (that considerably swayed your opinion to believe these are worth far more than $750 to $1250) were bid on by some people who didn't have the real story and may not have had a good idea on what they were buying.

[murphusa]

Research, the SCP auction say tmottbg came out in 1908. And then says the music box was earth 1900's. Well it couldn't be earlier than 08
The song didn't become popular until the 20's so the thought that a company would try to sell a music box with a non popular song in 1908 doesn't fit

Sometimes logic works

[murphusa]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

Jim, that would not have won the piece, my snipe was for well over that. I also actually had visions of winning this for less than $200 for 6 days, 23 hours and 55 minutes .

I was high bidder with 3 hours left
So it was mine

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by murphusa

I was a bidder on the item. The listing was under music boxes 1940 to 1970's category

What did you bid? There are only 2 bids over 400, one being the winner the other being Matts.

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by murphusa

Research, the SCP auction say tmottbg came out in 1908. And then says the music box was earth 1900's. Well it couldn't be earlier than 08
The song didn't become popular until the 20's so the thought that a company would try to sell a music box with a non popular song in 1908 doesn't fit

Sometimes logic works

..yeah, if only more buyers demonstrated logic. I think you give far too much credit to many buyers . If only some people demonstrated half the commen sense and logic and effort to research that you do Jim. Although knowing TMOTTBG didn't become popular untl the 20s requires knowledge beyond just plain logic.

This is one of the my biggest, if not biggest, pet peeves - when AHs list dates that couldn't possibly be true, even based on their own description. I was recently reading a Legenday listing that had an item described as "1890s to 1910", eventhough in their own description they "stated the tag dates the uniform to 1905", well then why the f__k did you say "1890s to...".

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

What did you bid? There are only 2 bids over 400, one being the winner the other being Matts.

I am curious of Matt's opinion since he seems quite knowledeable of the piece and previous sales, (not to call him out ), but I guess he made his thoughts clear in post #2.

[murphusa]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

What did you bid? There are only 2 bids over 400, one being the winner the other being Matts.

I was outbid at 1400 pst

You didn't read what I wrote.

I saw the item, I researched it

I bid $66

It held up for some time.

Never went back to it as it didn't interest me as much as other.

Now knowing more I would have taken a run

Why are you so negative on this win by a good guy, jealous

[vintagesportscollector]

Personally I think this is just a fun discussion...hopefully no one takes it personally. Bob's a great guy and I can't wait to see a pic of the box proudly displayed on his glass shelves (I look forward to adding the pic to his showcase).

[bobfreedman]

I ran out of room on my other shelf and had to put it on another shelf.

[vintagesportscollector]

..ask and you shall receive. Beautiful, Stunning. Wow..you got that fast..did you pick it up in person?

[bobfreedman]

No, I asked her to overnight it (for an additional $40) because I was concerned that someone who knew the value of it would make her a better offer. I did not want to take a chance at all on this. Me being paranoid and nervous

[vintagesportscollector]

Smart....btw, I also have one of the Reach baseball trophies. Yours looks like excellent condition. You don't see too many of those around.

[bobfreedman]

Originally Posted by vintagesportscollector

Smart....btw, I also have one of the Reach baseball trophies. Yours looks like excellent condition. You don't see too many of those around.

Thanks, it was another eBay buy but I paid full retail and then some for it. What I really like about it is the size of it. It is huge! The music box next to it is big but is dwarfed by that trophy in comparison.