T207

[bbcardzman]

Since finding this site a year ago I have read many articles and books and even checked out web sites devoted to T206 cards & T205 cards, but I can find very little on the T207 cards. I collect Cardinals cards from all years and sets and have put together want lists of Cardinals cards and the possible known back combinations from all the tobacco cards except the T207 set. I was wondering if anyone here might know where I might find out more on the T207 Brown Background set.

[kmac32]

actually, all T207 Cardinal cards were destroyed in the Great Chicago fire of 1871 and were deemed as the tinder that Some warped Cardinal fan/ arsonist used to start the fire so no such list will be available for the Cardinal players. :-)

An arson investigator went to the scene of the crime and found a pile of T207 Cardinal players cards in the smoldering ashes of a barn located on the "O'Leary" residence. It was also discovered that "Mother O'Leary" had recently moved to the Windy City from St. Louis along with her cow that was housed in the barn where the fire that burned the vast majority of the city had began.

During police questioning, Mother O'Leary admitted that she was only trying to prevent the Cubs from ever winning a World Series title. History determined that she would not be successful as the Cubs actually won two World Series in 1907 and 1908 and would forever make Cardinal fans jealous of the Cubs making Cardinal fans forever obnoxious in their behavior towards the Cubbies and their fans. :-)

[bbcardzman]

Originally Posted by kmac32

actually, all T207 Cardinal cards were destroyed in the Great Chicago fire of 1871 and were deemed as the tinder that Some warped Cardinal fan/ arsonist used to start the fire so no such list will be available for the Cardinal players. :-)

Good one! but at little early for 1912

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by bbcardzman

Good one! but at little early for 1912

haven't you ever heard of time travelers. Mrs O'Leary was one of them.

[kmac32]

actually, there is a list of all T207 cards in Bob Lemke's Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball Cards and you would have to cross reference it with a team list. That is how I came up with my T207 Cubs list. the different backs is the challenge and there are a couple of different board members that would be a good source of this info. Think mike Frome??? and Tbob would be the experts.

[sb1]

Your best reference would be Tim Newcomb's work in Old Cardboard magazine. Here is a link to an overall study. His main works appeared in 2004 issues, which you might be able to find back issues from Old Cardboard or other board members.

http://www.oldcardboard.com/eNews/20.../eNews74.htm#2

[bbcardzman]

Originally Posted by kmac32

actually, there is a list of all T207 cards in Bob Lemke's Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball Cards and you would have to cross reference it with a team list. That is how I came up with my T207 Cubs list. the different backs is the challenge and there are a couple of different board members that would be a good source of this info. Think mike Frome??? and Tbob would be the experts.

The backs are what I really need.

Originally Posted by sb1

Your best reference would be Tim Newcomb's work in Old Cardboard magazine. Here is a link to an overall study. His main works appeared in 2004 issues, which you might be able to find back issues from Old Cardboard or other board members.

http://www.oldcardboard.com/eNews/20.../eNews74.htm#2

You are exactly right. This is the only source that I have been able to find, Tim's work and the Old Cardboard site are invaluable for T207 information.

[sb1]

One thing to keep in mind on T207 backs, they either have Recruit or Napoleon backs, OR they will have Broadleaf, Cycle, Anonymous(and Red Cross). There is no crossover from the Recruit/Napoleon family to the other much tougher front/back combos.

[frohme]

Ye gads, what's the world coming to ... an actual post on Net54 about T207s... its been a while.

Bob M and Tim N's VCBC articles are the best general references going, even though they're 10 years old, now. Lew Lipset has a section in his encyclopedia, and various of the big books have the usual smattering. There are (or were) a couple sites run by folks on the board that had good information as well.

While that info is good, and though there isn't much more info readily available about T207, it is actually much easier to understand than its T205/6 brethren when it comes to front/back combos. I will leave RedCross out of the discussion - they're just too rare (and St Louis Nat'l is not known to be represented at this date anyway umm... oops ... Lowdermilk ).

As Scott (sb1) says - there are two classes of cards:

• Recruit - with Recruit (Fac 240 and 606) and Napoleon (Fac 240 only) backs; and
• Broadleaf - with Broadleaf, Cycle and two factories of Anonymous (3 and 25) backs.

There is no crossover between the two classes. The only twist to this from the backs perspective is that there are a handful (~50) Recruit cards that are known with one of the Anonymous backs (Factory 3). In all, there are 150 players + 5 variations in the Recruit class, and 50 players + 1 variation in the Broadleaf class cards... for 206 cards in the set with varying degrees of in and out for certain other print issues (wrong backs, cap color)..

All 50 Broadleaf class cards are known with all 4 possible backs. All Recruit cards are known with both factory backs. Napoleons are less common, but are widely believed to be fully covered as well.

For St Louis Natl ...

In Recruits, you'll have:

• Bresnahan
• Ellis
• Evans
• Golden
• Harmon
• Konetchy
• Oakes
• Smith (W)
• Steele
• Steinfeldt
• Wilie
• Wingo

36 cards across the 3 backs. Of those, Steele and Wingo are confirmed with the Anon 3 back, Ellis is suggested as the (as yet only hypothesized) 50th man... but that's just a suggestion, so 38 Recruit cards

In the Broadleaf class, you only have two:

• Lowdermilk
• Woodburn

Lowdermilk, not that hard, but $$$ because of historical information. Woodburn slightly less difficult, much less $$.

That's 8 more cards for a master team set of 46.

Then you could throw in a brown-print back, and a blank back, and ... well, you can go from there.

Hope this helps. You'll find out quickly enough where you're going to have fun trying to complete this master team set in less than a decade or so... (though it is becoming much easier - and cheaper - these days, it would seem. Prices are down on lots of T207's. Images of most are available by team and back, if you're interested.

Best of luck to you - I'll help where I can.
--
Mike

[bbcardzman]

Originally Posted by frohme

Ye gads, what's the world coming to ... an actual post on Net54 about T207s... its been a while.

Bob M and Tim N's VCBC articles are the best general references going, even though they're 10 years old, now. Lew Lipset has a section in his encyclopedia, and various of the big books have the usual smattering. There are (or were) a couple sites run by folks on the board that had good information as well.

While that info is good, and though there isn't much more info readily available about T207, it is actually much easier to understand than its T205/6 brethren when it comes to front/back combos. I will leave RedCross out of the discussion - they're just too rare (and St Louis Nat'l is not known to be represented at this date anyway).

As Scott (sb1) says - there are two classes of cards:

• Recruit - with Recruit (Fac 240 and 606) and Napoleon (Fac 240 only) backs; and
• Broadleaf - with Broadleaf, Cycle and two factories of Anonymous (3 and 25) backs.

There is no crossover between the two classes. The only twist to this from the backs perspective is that there are a handful (~50) Recruit cards that are known with one of the Anonymous backs (Factory 3). In all, there are 150 players + 5 variations in the Recruit class, and 50 players + 1 variation in the Broadleaf class cards... for 206 cards in the set with varying degrees of in and out for certain other print issues (wrong backs, cap color)..

All 50 Broadleaf class cards are known with all 4 possible backs. All Recruit cards are known with both factory backs. Napoleons are less common, but are widely believed to be fully covered as well.

For St Louis Natl ...

In Recruits, you'll have:

• Bresnahan
• Ellis
• Evans
• Golden
• Harmon
• Konetchy
• Oakes
• Smith (W)
• Steele
• Steinfeldt
• Wilie
• Wingo

36 cards across the 3 backs. Of those, Steele and Wingo are confirmed with the Anon 3 back, Ellis is suggested as the (as yet only hypothesized) 50th man... but that's just a suggestion, so 38 Recruit cards

In the Broadleaf class, you only have two:

• Lowdermilk
• Woodburn

Lowdermilk, not that hard, but $$$ because of historical information. Woodburn slightly less difficult, much less $$.

That's 8 more cards for a master team set of 46.

Then you could throw in a brown-print back, and a blank back, and ... well, you can go from there.

Hope this helps. You'll find out quickly enough where you're going to have fun trying to complete this master team set in less than a decade or so... (though it is becoming much easier - and cheaper - these days, it would seem. Prices are down on lots of T207's. Images of most are available by team and back, if you're interested.

Best of luck to you - I'll help where I can.
--
Mike

Thank you very much, Mike, that is exactly what I needed.
Now I just need to find a few I can afford.
I see you might have some for sale?
LMK - Eric

[sreader3]

Mike,

Just wanted to say that was a super informative response to the original poster. Many of us learned something valuable.

Scot

[frohme]

Appreciate the kind words, Scot - thank you.

--
Mike

[buymycards]

Hi Mike, thank you for the great info about the T207's. Your explanation is much clearer and easier to understand than the info in the Standard Catalog or in Lew Lipsett's book.

Thanks for sharing.

Rick

[sb1]

Agreed, very thorough and detailed. It made my response seem rather simplistic

[frohme]

Thanks all,

I've mostly summarized what's detailed in the previously mentioned VCBC articles as they have been the source I go to first when I have questions. Without that research and knowledge sharing, we'd still be muddling about. Kudos to Tim and Bob for their efforts and generosity in sharing that with the community.

--
Mike

[frohme]

Originally Posted by bbcardzman

Thank you very much, Mike, that is exactly what I needed.
Now I just need to find a few I can afford.
I see you might have some for sale?
LMK - Eric

Thanks, Eric. I believe I have a number of the ones listed - sending you a PM.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by frohme

Thanks, Eric. I believe I have a number of the ones listed - sending you a PM.

Thanks for sharing great info Mike. We all appreciate it.

(And a tidbit of info- If I am not mistaking Mike and I played baseball against each other in little league in the early 70s!!)

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Hope no one minds me reviving this thread. This thread, along with Mike's more recent thread regarding T207s backs, motivated me to dip my toe in the T207 water a bit. I just purchased a Steinfeldt in about VG+ or VGEX condition. A lot of what I read about the T207s describes the love or hate outlook collectors have regarding it. I will see when I actually get mine in hand, but I am inclined to be someone who loves them, I think. For me, there is something about the simplicity of the brown that attracts me. I have lost count of how many times I have looked at them. So, thanks for all of the motivating information. We'll see where this goes.

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Hope no one minds me reviving this thread. This thread, along with Mike's more recent thread regarding T207s backs, motivated me to dip my toe in the T207 water a bit. I just purchased a Steinfeldt in about VG+ or VGEX condition. A lot of what I read about the T207s describes the love or hate outlook collectors have regarding it. I will see when I actually get mine in hand, but I am inclined to be someone who loves them, I think. For me, there is something about the simplicity of the brown that attracts me. I have lost count of how many times I have looked at them. So, thanks for all of the motivating information. We'll see where this goes.

I, too, read a lot of the stuff out there regarding the negativity so I had to see for myself. I bought my first T207 earlier this year and love the look/feel of them.

T206 is still my favorite of the ATC sets, but I love the T207s, too. I think they're underappreciated because of the lack of HOFs like Cobb and Matty. Some of the artwork isn't the greatest but some are really nice IMO. Here are a few of my favorites.

I also find the occasional hint of color against the mostly brown/beige cards to be pretty cool.

[Cozumeleno]

Couldn't resist - a few more favorites:

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Thanks for sharing, nice looking poses on those cards. I too have noticed the hints of color on some of the T207s you mentioned. Again, they are very different from the other cards of that time. There definitely are some challenges hiding in that set.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Cozumeleno]

Yes, I think some of the poses and the way they were captured is extraordinary. Sadly, there are some ugly cards in the set and some of the artwork (i.e. Walter Johnson) wasn't very good. But there are some nice cards to be had.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Yes, I agree the Walter Johnson is a bit odd looking.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

Yes, I think some of the poses and the way they were captured is extraordinary. Sadly, there are some ugly cards in the set and some of the artwork (i.e. Walter Johnson) wasn't very good. But there are some nice cards to be had.

I also think the look of the set doesn't attract as many collectors as some others that are more aesthetically pleasing. Still a great set to collect though!!

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by Leon

I also think the look of the set doesn't attract as many collectors as some others that are more aesthetically pleasing. Still a great set to collect though!!

Yeah, I agree with that. There's no doubt that the artwork on the T205s/T206s trumps it (by a lot, actually). I think I was drawn to them because I always read about how ugly they were and seeing them in person, I didn't think they were quite so bad as a lot of people believe.

There are ugly ones and the overall look is pretty sterile, but there are also things I enjoy about them. Some of the action shots are pretty nice, the all brown background doesn't terrify me as much as it does others, and even though the gloss surface has cracked on many of them, I can appreciate the change in surfacing from the other two sets.

They're also harder to find, which makes the hunt a challenging one.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I am expecting my very first T207 to be in my mailbox tomorrow, and I am excited about its arrival as it feels like the beginning of something new. In the grand scheme of things, it isn't anything major--a vgex ish Steinfeld. I have been wondering about the few other T207 collectors and your various approaches. For those of you who collect these little brown cards:

1. Do you collect these exclusively?
2. Do you collect these in graded or ungraded form or just whatever you are lucky enough to find?
3. What is your particular approach to these cards? By team? By player? By back? By whatever catches your eye? Some other way?
4. Are you a high grade or low grade T207 collector or whatever you can find?
5. Anything else worth throwing in that I should have asked.

[Cozumeleno]

To answer your questions:

1. I do not collect them exclusively but am mostly only collecting T205, T206, and T207 at this point along with E90-1s.

2. I prefer almost everything ungraded with the exception of the bigger cards. I buy slabbed cards but crack them open almost all of the time, keeping the flips.

3. I am working on a full T207 set and am a little more than 40% complete.

4. Almost entirely low-grade cards for me in Poor-Good condition. I do have a few others a little higher that were graded 3-5, but nothing higher than that. I'd say 80% of my T207 cards are P-G. After that, I plan to begin upgrading some of the lower-grade cards.

Best of luck with however you approach it - I think it's a nice set.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I got my first T207 in the mail today! I didn't want to put this in the May pick ups up against all of the awesome items there, but I am very happy with it nonetheless. I didn't notice when I bought it, but it is a Factory 606 (assumed it was 240). I have read about the gloss of these cards but was still really surprised something this old was glossy. Anyway, I plan on buying more.

[uffda51]

I put this set together between about 2000-2007. I no longer have it. Some VERY tough cards in the set. Tim Newcomb's article provided the best information on the set.

http://imageevent.com/uffda51/t207he...mfeuc6x1.cat_s

[Yoda]

I have collected and dealer-dealt a lot of T207's over the years and, like many, have mixed emotions about the set. As many have indicated, where are the stars? the Cobb, Nap, Matty, Cyrus etc.; yet there are some pure cards there, such as the Jack Barry, truly a great baseball card. There is one card, however, that makes me shudder, the Beals Becker, which I always think of as" Dracula on Deck". Hope I don't dream about him tonight.

[Luke]

Nice to see another collector getting into T207s!

I love this set, but I have a love/hate thing going on within it. I absolutely love some of the poses in the set, I hate that I don't like a significant amount of the poses. This is my 2nd favorite set behind T206, but I don't think I'll ever go for the entire set because I find so many of the cards unappealing. Which is a shame because some of the most beautiful tobacco cards ever produced came from this set.

So, for now I am just collecting poses that I like without any real focus. I like Napoleon backs the most, but I am pretty happy just collecting fronts for this set.

One thing I love about grading on T207s is that you can find some 2s and 3s that are cheap, but present like VGEX copies. When T207s crease, it can be pretty brutal on the eye appeal, but sometimes they just get a bend on the front and a wrinkle on the back. I have a bunch of 2s and 3s with bends that look VGEX or better and you can only see the bend at the right angle when light bounces off of it.

Here are some of my favorites:

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

Nice to see another collector getting into T207s!

I love this set, but I have a love/hate thing going on within it. I absolutely love some of the poses in the set, I hate that I don't like a significant amount of the poses. This is my 2nd favorite set behind T206, but I don't think I'll ever go for the entire set because I find so many of the cards unappealing. Which is a shame because some of the most beautiful tobacco cards ever produced came from this set.

So, for now I am just collecting poses that I like without any real focus. I like Napoleon backs the most, but I am pretty happy just collecting fronts for this set.

One thing I love about grading on T207s is that you can find some 2s and 3s that are cheap, but present like VGEX copies. When T207s crease, it can be pretty brutal on the eye appeal, but sometimes they just get a bend on the front and a wrinkle on the back. I have a bunch of 2s and 3s with bends that look VGEX or better and you can only see the bend at the right angle when light bounces off of it.

Here are some of my favorites:

Luke, I am coming to similar conclusions about T207. I love the overall look, but I doubt I will ever complete an entire set. There are simply some of the cards that I won't spend $ on. However, I am seeing many T207s that will join my collection. I have no problem with the brown at all. It is some of the art work that I personally don't care for.

I also like T206 and have ventured in a little but backed away quickly because I was overwhelmed. To counter that, I think I will also just pick poses/players that I particularly like out of that set as well and not try to do everything.

Between cherry picking T207 and T206, I should be able to pick up some nice stuff.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Yoda]

Luke, that T207 Hooper with the Napoleon reverse is one fantastic card. I wonder how many collectors realize how rare that front and back combination is? I never have seen one before. Great snag. John

[Luke]

Thanks for the kind words John. I was really excited when I found it. Easily one of my top 5 favorite cards.

[frohme]

Sweet card, Luke!

Amen - Hooper is tough enough in any back - there are a few Napoleons around, but its not your everyday card.

My example, with an equally tough anonymous back - not the prettiest, but ya take 'em when and where ya can get 'em.