Most difficult cards in the T211 Red Sun set

[goudey1933]

I know they are all difficult but which ones are the most elusive?
Scott

[edjs]

I look at the pop reports on SGC, any that have a pop of 2-4 I consider the toughest (too many to list). I've been collecting this set for two years, I have 18. You are right, they are all really tough.

[Vintagecatcher]

I have always liked the set, but have never been able to find a decent condition one for a reasonable price. There are only a few catchers in the set, which compounds the problem for me. Someday I'll grab one for my type collection.

Patrick

[Tao_Moko]

Not sure if Foster is the toughest, but it's always been desirable due to its crossover appeal to 206 collectors. This set has been tough and pricey as long as I can remember.

[brass_rat]

The most difficult? The ones I'm looking for.

Haha, seriously though, I think of you're looking for a specific player, you could be at it for awhile.

Some people that I've talked to believe that some teams are more difficult than others. However, if you adjust the population reports for the number of players represented on each team, the only difference is that some teams have more players (and thus have a higher population of cards in total).

I also believe that a large number of T211s are in raw collections and that the population reports can only be used as a guide.

Just my two cents.

Cheers,
Steve

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

I also believe that a large number of T211s are in raw collections and that the population reports can only be used as a guide.

All five of my T211s are raw. I posted them in this thread a year ago, and several other people posted raw ones too:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=202276

I got mine around 15-20 years ago, when they were still relatively affordable, or at least it was still possible to find affordable ones. I'm 99% sure I didn't pay more than $100 for any of my five, and I think the first couple (Vinson and Bay) were in the $30-$40 range.

[abroome]

Only T211 I've discovered in the wild was about 7 or so years ago at a small motel show in DFW. Pretty much just a handful of dealers selling modern cards.
I asked each dealer if they had any T206s since most modern guys at least know of T206s.
One guy said yes, I do have one. He unzipped a bank money bag and pulled a card out. He says "its a black and white one."
It was a pretty decent condition T211 Bayless. If I remember, it was probably VG. I quickly paid his asking price.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[shernan30]

Originally Posted by abroome

Only T211 I've discovered in the wild was about 7 or so years ago at a small motel show in DFW. Pretty much just a handful of dealers selling modern cards.
I asked each dealer if they had any T206s since most modern guys at least know of T206s.
One guy said yes, I do have one. He unzipped a bank money bag and pulled a card out. He says "its a black and white one."
It was a pretty decent condition T211 Bayless. If I remember, it was probably VG. I quickly paid his asking price.

Talk about a good day at a modern card show

[packs]

Is every subject known? Could there theoretically be a Stengel?

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by packs

Is every subject known? Could there theoretically be a Stengel?

On the back of the Red Sun it says "First Series 1 to 75". All of the 75 players are known and Stengel is not part of that set because he was not in the Southern Association. (The whole set is Southern Association Teams. Stengel was in BlueGrass League)

Also many in the hobby believe a 2nd series was very possible, but never produced. The suggestion of "First Series" is one obvious indicator.

[DixieBaseball]

There are a few raw complete sets out there and a few folks close to completing the 75 card set as well. These cards are all rare and I believe the Pop reports for PSA/SGC do distinguish a bit between the rare cards to show a pattern. My guess is with Pop reports + Raw you are in that 6-15 range of each player. Could be a little more or less for any one player. If you think about it. Less than 15 specimens of each player.... wow.

Beautiful cards...

[darwinbulldog]

The distribution of the numbers of graded cards from the set is consistent with what you'd expect if all the cards had been printed in equal numbers. Possibly some card(s) were double-printed or short-printed, but there's no particular evidence of that. My guess is whichever ones are rarest today just became that way more or less by chance. Some of them have 1 or 2 more surviving copies than the average card in the set; some of them have 1 or 2 fewer. It would be astonishing if that didn't happen.

[shernan30]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

There are a few raw complete sets out there and a few folks close to completing the 75 card set as well. These cards are all rare and I believe the Pop reports for PSA/SGC do distinguish a bit between the rare cards to show a pattern. My guess is with Pop reports + Raw you are in that 6-15 range of each player. Could be a little more or less for any one player. If you think about it. Less than 15 specimens of each player.... wow.

Beautiful cards...

Great looking card and pack!! I just got started in the cigarette pack collecting thanks to Jon Canfield. I have a better appreciation seeing a card with the pack it would have been found in.

I only have 1 Red Sun on my checklist, Charlie Babb. He played 3 games for the Columbus Senators in 1897.
If anyone has an "EXTRA" laying around I'm paying well .

Steven

[spec]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

The distribution of the numbers of graded cards from the set is consistent with what you'd expect if all the cards had been printed in equal numbers. Possibly some card(s) were double-printed or short-printed, but there's no particular evidence of that. My guess is whichever ones are rarest today just became that way more or less by chance. Some of them have 1 or 2 more surviving copies than the average card in the set; some of them have 1 or 2 fewer. It would be astonishing if that didn't happen.

Finally, someone who understands normal distribution. It is illogical to assume there are scarce cards in every set, or even most of them.

[DixieBaseball]

Now we get to the part of the conversation where the collecting public discusses "their" definition of what is "scarce" and what is "rare".

Regardless of distribution pattern being equal/unequal, Red Sun's are the topic of conversation of this thread and it's safe to say that there isn't 20 of any one player in that 75 card set. I believe in 10 years we can look at this thread and if we count raw sales, pop reports it will still be much of the same.

One caveat to keep in mind on pop reports is there is a little bit of redundancy due to re-grade, cross-overs, etc. - Most Grade card folks are not flip responsible and send those back in to be pulled from pop reports. (I actually do this on any rare or scarce card b/c it will impact pop numbers over time) Now, if it's my 1970 Kelloggs psa graded card, I throw the flips away

Anyway, What is rare? 1-10 ? 1-15? What is scarce? 25-50? 50-100?
We have exhausted this conversation in many different threads over the years. Typically we circle back to the Honus Wagner T206 as the overused term of "Rare" inevitably comes up when this card comes up for sale. Is it truly rare or is it scarce? There are about 75 examples of it. Since they are not sold very often, demand is there thus making it difficult, and the price also makes it very difficult. So is it rare or scarce?

[Joshchisox08]

Have to admit these cards look amazing! Anyone know the first names of any of these players?


Gornhorst Atlanta Crackers
Hanks Atlanta Crackers
Cross Memphis Turtles
Davis Memphis Turtles
Steele Memphis Turtles
Berger Mobile Sea Gulls
Widler Mobile Sea Gulls
McCreary Montgomery Climbers
Nolley Montgomery Climbers
Anderson Nashville Volunteers
Cohen Nashville Volunteers
Kelly Nashville Volunteers
Welf Nashville Volunteers
Cafalu New Orleans Pelicans
Foster New Orleans Pelicans
Robertson New Orleans Pelicans

[yomass]

Seitz was the last one I found for my set.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by yomass

Seitz was the last one I found for my set

Then I would think it would be as scarce as they get for the series. I know you probably searched quite a bit. On the converse, 3/4 of Bayless seems to be seen more than many others. Who the heck at production thought his card looked correct?
(Not mine anymore)..

[Tao_Moko]

It has always seemed to me that scarcity/rarity somewhat depends on the team. The Barons only have three players featured which is the fewest of any team in the set. I've never been crazy enough to go after this set, but I would expect that the team least favoured could potentially be the most difficult. Only speculation and there are not enough examples to prove my theory. In my opinion all cards are good examples of what could be considered "rare".

Just imagine if a Joe Jackson existed.

[abroome]

One T211 mystery thats always bothered me is why there are no Chattanooga players represented.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by abroome

One T211 mystery thats always bothered me is why there are no Chattanooga players represented.

Andy,
I believe it has something to do with when the T211's were made/distributed and when the Chattanooga team actually came into the Southern Association. (They were Little Rock, then sold and became Chattanooga) I also believe this is why Chattanooga is the most rare city in the T210-8 series. It probably had to do with when they joined the Southern Association. (Late) 1909/1910 joined/cards made/distributed.

I believe the T210-8 series was distributed in 2 waves. The 75 cards you see in Series 1 of T211 & T210-8 series players (75) were distributed in early 1910
and then a of course T211 never released a 2nd series, but T210-8 possibly released another 39 cards which 10 of them were from Chattanooga. I have been tracking the 10's and 11's and to me a pattern has emerged on rarity that is very obvious on the Series 8 T210's. The 39 (non T211 T210's) cards in Series 8 seem to be more difficult to find than the the First series (75) of T211/T210 cards. I think the 39 T210-8 cards not found in T211 were distributed later in 1910 thus making them more difficult to find. Another example would be Memphis. There are Memphis players that come up here and there and then there are 8 Memphis players of the 14 that are near impossible much like the Chattanooga players to find. Conversely, all 17 of the Nashville players are found in the Series 1 T211's, and were easier for me to complete in T210-8 subset than Chattanooga Memphis. Birmingham as well as the other teams have examples. If you go look closely at the 39 non T211 - T210-8's, and have collected them for 15+ years like I have you will see a clear pattern emerge. Now finding facts to back up my thesis is another story. Timelines, scarcity all check out.... More time is needed. Hope this wasn't too confusing.

[brass_rat]

Great post, thank you for taking the time to write it all out, Jerame.

Cheers,
Steve

[goudey1933]

Thanks to everybody for all the great info.
Scott

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Have to admit these cards look amazing! Anyone know the first names of any of these players?


Gornhorst Atlanta Crackers
Hanks Atlanta Crackers
Cross Memphis Turtles
Davis Memphis Turtles
Steele Memphis Turtles
Berger Mobile Sea Gulls
Widler Mobile Sea Gulls
McCreary Montgomery Climbers
Nolley Montgomery Climbers
Anderson Nashville Volunteers
Cohen Nashville Volunteers
Kelly Nashville Volunteers
Welf Nashville Volunteers
Cafalu New Orleans Pelicans
Foster New Orleans Pelicans
Robertson New Orleans Pelicans

Josh - If you use baseballreference.com and look up minor league teams, you can get a lot of their first names. For example, Oliver (Ollie) Welf for the Nash Vols...

[abroome]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Andy,
I believe it has something to do with when the T211's were made/distributed and when the Chattanooga team actually came into the Southern Association. (They were Little Rock, then sold and became Chattanooga) I also believe this is why Chattanooga is the most rare city in the T210-8 series. It probably had to do with when they joined the Southern Association. (Late) 1909/1910 joined/cards made/distributed.

I believe the T210-8 series was distributed in 2 waves. The 75 cards you see in Series 1 of T211 & T210-8 series players (75) were distributed in early 1910
and then a of course T211 never released a 2nd series, but T210-8 possibly released another 39 cards which 10 of them were from Chattanooga. I have been tracking the 10's and 11's and to me a pattern has emerged on rarity that is very obvious on the Series 8 T210's. The 39 (non T211 T210's) cards in Series 8 seem to be more difficult to find than the the First series (75) of T211/T210 cards. I think the 39 T210-8 cards not found in T211 were distributed later in 1910 thus making them more difficult to find. Another example would be Memphis. There are Memphis players that come up here and there and then there are 8 Memphis players of the 14 that are near impossible much like the Chattanooga players to find. Conversely, all 17 of the Nashville players are found in the Series 1 T211's, and were easier for me to complete in T210-8 subset than Chattanooga Memphis. Birmingham as well as the other teams have examples. If you go look closely at the 39 non T211 - T210-8's, and have collected them for 15+ years like I have you will see a clear pattern emerge. Now finding facts to back up my thesis is another story. Timelines, scarcity all check out.... More time is needed. Hope this wasn't too confusing.

That does make sense actually. And the 8 T206 proofs that included 2 Lookouts further backs this up I think. The possible 4th series of T206, if you will, would have finally had Chatt. players.

Thanks!

[tedzan]

Great stuff and great research, Jeremy.




. . . .



TED Z
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[RCMcKenzie]

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[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Josh - If you use baseballreference.com and look up minor league teams, you can get a lot of their first names. For example, Oliver (Ollie) Welf for the Nash Vols...

Thanks Jerome I typically do use BaseballReference, still 12 players short or 12 mysteries !

Gornhorst Atlanta Crackers
Cross Memphis Turtles
Davis Memphis Turtles
Widler Mobile Sea Gulls
McCreary Montgomery Climbers
Nolley Montgomery Climbers
Cohen Nashville Volunteers
Kelly Nashville Volunteers
Cafalu New Orleans Pelicans
Foster New Orleans Pelicans
Robertson New Orleans Pelicans

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Thanks Jerome I typically do use BaseballReference, still 12 players short or 12 mysteries !

Gornhorst Atlanta Crackers
Cross Memphis Turtles
Davis Memphis Turtles
Widler Mobile Sea Gulls
McCreary Montgomery Climbers
Nolley Montgomery Climbers
Cohen Nashville Volunteers
Kelly Nashville Volunteers
Cafalu New Orleans Pelicans
Foster New Orleans Pelicans
Robertson New Orleans Pelicans

I see you were able to get a few marked off... Wingo Anderson... Ollie Welf...Great! I have Cohen's first name as Harry Cohen. (Possibly Hy as a nickname)