O/T Scherzer - Almost a Vandermeer

[frankbmd]

Today's no-no, was almost perfect save for hitting the 27th batter with a pitch.
Last week's one hitter was almost a no-no save for Carlos Gomez' bloop single that was almost caught. His next start will be well covered.

[ooo-ribay]

I think Tabata leaned into it and I find that weak.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I think Tabata leaned into it and I find that weak.

At the very least he made no effort to get out of the way.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I think Tabata leaned into it and I find that weak.

exactly... earn it; don't lean into it.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by t206hound

exactly... earn it; don't lean into it.

Yes, Yes- but I still feel more sympathy for Armando Galarraga.

That was a BIG shame...but both he and the ump were real men about it.

...and Galarraga never got another chance at history.


On the other hand, I'll bet Scherzer will have at least two more no-hitters in his career. Now, of course there is no way to predict such a thing, but when he's on, not many can touch him.

[Danny Smith]

Dude is so good right now. If only the rest of the nats could step it up.

[t206blogcom]

I was at the no hitter today. Was also at Zimmermann's no hitter last year. Love my Nats!

Agree, the batter leaned into it or at the very least made no effort to get out of the way. What a shame and a cheap shot by the batter.

[GregMitch34]

There are so many no-hitters today than in Vander Meer's time I can't get too excited about it, sorry.

[Joshchisox08]

That's too damn bad too bad the mad German pitches in the National League now.

[arc2q]

For all the constant sqwaking from players these days about respecting the game and understanding the unwritten rules, there needs to be more condemnation of Tabata. He leaned into it to try to get hit. It would have been less pathetic if he had bunted to try to break up the no hitter.

[brass_rat]

Tabata should be embarrassed for himself. Actually, years down the line, he will be embarrassed for himself on the inside.

He fought off many good pitches, and he wasn't going down without a fight...but then he dropped his elbow because he couldn't get the hit.

He will tell himself that he fought with pride to have a real at-bat rather than just rolling over, because that's good baseball. But in the end, he took the coward's way out.

Congrats on the no-hitter,
Steve

[Joshchisox08]

Actually happened he leaned into the pitch though I'm a Sox fan so I'm a bit biased.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by arc2q

For all the constant sqwaking from players these days about respecting the game and understanding the unwritten rules, there needs to be more condemnation of Tabata. He leaned into it to try to get hit. It would have been less pathetic if he had bunted to try to break up the no hitter.

I think the opposite. It's the old school way of breaking up the perfect game, if you can get away with it why not.

[brass_rat]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

I think the opposite. It's the old school way of breaking up the perfect game, if you can get away with it why not.

I respectfully disagree. If you want to have pride, so be it. Have pride, beat the guy, leg out the hit.

The umpire should have invoked rule 6.08b.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info...s/batter_6.jsp

[arc2q]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

I think the opposite. It's the old school way of breaking up the perfect game, if you can get away with it why not.

You can't be serious? It's happened once before in history and that was 1908. So clearly there is no baseball code saying, "to break up perfect game one ought to try to get hit by pitch."

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Yes, Yes- but I still feel more sympathy for Armando Galarraga.

That was a BIG shame...but both he and the ump were real men about it.

...and Galarraga never got another chance at history.


On the other hand, I'll bet Scherzer will have at least two more no-hitters in his career. Now, of course there is no way to predict such a thing, but when he's on, not many can touch him.

I agree that Galarraga more sympathetic and have always thought that Selig should have corrected the record.

I'm a fairly serious Nats fan (share season tix) and watched today's game on tv. Scherzer lost his perfect game on a legitimate HBP in my view. Just a damn shame he was only one strike away from history.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by t206blogcom

I was at the no hitter today. Was also at Zimmermann's no hitter last year. Love my Nats!

Agree, the batter leaned into it or at the very least made no effort to get out of the way. What a shame and a cheap shot by the batter.

Hi Jason,
The wife and I were also at today's game, but you are one up on me, having also witnessed J Zim's no-hitter last year. I agree with those that feel Tabata didn't really try to avoid the pitch. As the game wore on, I was concerned that the major thunderstorms heading toward DC might interrupt the game before it was completed, possibly resulting in a rain delay that would last too long for Scherzer to be able to resume pitching. But, Scherzer is a fast worker on the mound, and fortunately, the storms held off until shortly after the game ended. However, the coming storms did prompt the Nats' management to cancel the scheduled seniors-stroll-the-bases after the game, which the wife and I were looking forward to. And, driving home after the game to where we live in a distant VA suburb was no picnic.
Val

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by mark evans

I agree that Galarraga more sympathetic and have always thought that Selig should have corrected the record.

I'm a fairly serious Nats fan (share season tix) and watched today's game on tv. Scherzer lost his perfect game on a legitimate HBP in my view. Just a damn shame he was only one strike away from history.

Agree, Way too much vitriol being spewed at Tabata. The ball was inside and a legit HBP. That being said I think there is an argument to be made that if the only thing being contacted on the batter is an inch thick piece of plastic on the elbow and doesn't hurt the player that it shouldn't be a HBP.

[nolemmings]

Sorry--whether you think it was part of the game or bad form, he definitely dropped his elbow right into that pitch.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

His next start will be well covered.

He is scheduled to face the Phillies. Their offense has been dreadful this season. We very well may see back to back no-hitters.

[kcohen]

As a Nats fan, it is certainly disappointing to lose a perfect game like that. However, I choose to look at the bright side for two reasons:

1) The Nats got a much needed win, which have been few and far between lately, and;

2) The possible uptick in value of my Hooks Wiltze cards.


PS - Also ecstatic with my Wahoos advancing to the CWS World Series, even though I don't give us much more than a puncher's of a chance of getting by Vandy.

[Orioles1954]

No harm. No foul. Scherzer threw the ball inside and missed the zone by about a foot. Bad things happen when you miss the zone by a foot. IMHO, perfect games and no-hitters are more impressive when thrown in the American League where there isn't a free out 2-3 times a game.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by t206blogcom

I was at the no hitter today. Was also at Zimmermann's no hitter last year. Love my Nats!

Agree, the batter leaned into it or at the very least made no effort to get out of the way. What a shame and a cheap shot by the batter.

Bull.

Scherzer needs to not miss his spot by 18 or more inches on the biggest pitch of his career. End.of story. ALL responsibility for that is squarely on Scherzer. Execute your pitch and BS like this doesn't come into play.

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by arc2q

For all the constant sqwaking from players these days about respecting the game and understanding the unwritten rules, there needs to be more condemnation of Tabata. He leaned into it to try to get hit. It would have been less pathetic if he had bunted to try to break up the no hitter.

I'm sorry but this is laughable. Don't put him in that position by missing your spot by almost two feet on the biggest pitch of his life.

Tabata is supposed to roll over and play dead just because of the situation?

Respecting the game means playing all 27 outs. Would it really respect that amazingly pitched game to play out 27 any different than out 1? Scherzer deserved more than that.

What's more, Scherzer fully understands that. He gets that he made the terrible pitch. Good for him.

Tom C

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Bull.

Scherzer needs to not miss his spot by 18 or more inches on the biggest pitch of his career. End.of story. ALL responsibility for that is squarely on Scherzer. Execute your pitch and BS like this doesn't come into play.

Tom C

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I'm sorry but this is laughable. Don't put him in that position by missing your spot by almost two feet on the biggest pitch of his life.

Tabata is supposed to roll over and play dead just because of the situation?

Respecting the game means playing all 27 outs. Would it really respect that amazingly pitched game to play out 27 any different than out 1? Scherzer deserved more than that.

What's more, Scherzer fully understands that. He gets that he made the terrible pitch. Good for him.

Tom C

Right on, bro.

[nolemmings]

Well, the rule is there that would have disallowed that HBP. As most here know, it saved Drysdale's shutout streak when the ump ruled Dick Dietz could not take first after failing to make an effort to get out of the way of an inside pitch that hit him on the elbow with the bases loaded. Here, Tabata not only only failed to make an effort to avoid contact, he actually moved to get hit. So it quite easily could have been ruled that he had to stay in the box--that would have been not only in the spirit, but also the written rules of the game.

And no, Scherzer did not miss the zone by a foot. The chalk for the batter's box is only six inches off the plate and that's about where the pitch was thrown--the catcher did not even have to leave his squat to catch it. It was an 86 mph slider that did not slide, but was not sailing into him--what little bend it had would have taken it toward the plate. No way he tries that with a 97 mph fastball. Speaking of which, hats off to Scherzer for the way he handled it, but I wouldn't mind or be surprised if he drilled Tabata in the ribs next time he faces him, if not multiple times. And it won't be a slider.

[Beatles Guy]

Take off the elbow armor and then lean in to get hit. I'd give him that HBP.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Well, the rule is there that would have disallowed that HBP. As most here know, it saved Drysdale's shutout streak when the ump ruled Dick Dietz could not take first after failing to make an effort to get out of the way of an inside pitch that hit him on the elbow with the bases loaded. Here, Tabata not only only failed to make an effort to avoid contact, he actually moved to get hit. So it quite easily could have been ruled that he had to stay in the box--that would have been not only in the spirit, but also the written rules of the game.

And no, Scherzer did not miss the zone by a foot. The chalk for the batter's box is only six inches off the plate and that's about where the pitch was thrown--the catcher did not even have to leave his squat to catch it. It was an 86 mph slider that did not slide, but was not sailing into him--what little bend it had would have taken it toward the plate. No way he tries that with a 97 mph fastball. Speaking of which, hats off to Scherzer for the way he handled it, but I wouldn't mind or be surprised if he drilled Tabata in the ribs next time he faces him, if not multiple times. And it won't be a slider.

Sorry Todd. The catcher was setting up on the outside part of the plate as Scherzer was delivering the ball. He missed his spot by the entire plate and at least six inches inside if not more. It was a terrible pitch. Scherzer was understandably amped up. The pitch was too far inside and never broke. Tabata should never have been in that position. Scherzer understands that.

If he drills Tabata, I would like to see two things happen.

1. It sends Tabata to the DL then back to the minors where he belongs.
2. Gerritt Cole fires one at 100 MPH at ass of the National of his choosing.

Tom C

[nolemmings]

Sorry Todd. The catcher was setting up on the outside part of the plate as Scherzer was delivering the ball. He missed his spot by the entire plate and at least six inches inside if not more. It was a terrible pitch. Scherzer was understandably amped up. The pitch was too far inside and never broke. Tabata should never have been in that position. Scherzer understands that.

If he drills Tabata, I would like to see two things happen.

1. It sends Tabata to the DL then back to the minors where he belongs.
2. Gerritt Cole fires one at 100 MPH at ass of the National of his choosing.

Wherever his target was, that pitch was only 6 or so inches off the plate, not a foot as someone said. Watch the replay. Again, it was a breaking pitch that had little or no break, but the point is barely relevant. The rule is what it is. He could and I believe should have had it enforced.

And if Pittsburgh wants to get in a beanball war then I hope they go for it. Dbacks fans lost Goldschmidt for a 1/3 of last year as a result of Pirates pitching--pitching that led the league in batters hit by a wide margin. Then we had to listen to whining about retaliation for hitting McCutcheon, who later was determined to have been hurt on a fielding play and not the HBP. What little national attention and goodwill that Pirate team is drawing will go out the window if they want to make much of a deal out of this or anything else. So yes, get Cole all warmed up--I'm sure you'll get Matt Williams' attention--and see how that ends for the Bucs.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Wherever his target was, that pitch was only 6 or so inches off the plate, not a foot as someone said. Watch the replay. Again, it was a breaking pitch that had little or no break, but the point is barely relevant. The rule is what it is. He could and I believe should have had it enforced.

And if Pittsburgh wants to get in a beanball war then I hope they go for it. Dbacks fans lost Goldschmidt for a 1/3 of last year as a result of Pirates pitching--pitching that led the league in batters hit by a wide margin. Then we had to listen to whining about retaliation for hitting McCutcheon, who later was determined to have been hurt on a fielding play and not the HBP. What little national attention and goodwill that Pirate team is drawing will go out the window if they want to make much of a deal out of this or anything else. So yes, get Cole all warmed up--I'm sure you'll get Matt Williams' attention--and see how that ends for the Bucs.

A pitcher doesn't throw the ball "over the plate". He hits spots.

I am the one who said a foot. Actually I said 18 inches. I said that he missed his spot by 18 inches. May have actually been more. It was an awful pitch and he cannot blame anyone but himself. He has said pretty much exactly this since then.

On a night of amazing pitches, this one was terrible.

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

And if Pittsburgh wants to get in a beanball war then I hope they go for it. Dbacks fans lost Goldschmidt for a 1/3 of last year as a result of Pirates pitching--pitching that led the league in batters hit by a wide margin. Then we had to listen to whining about retaliation for hitting McCutcheon, who later was determined to have been hurt on a fielding play and not the HBP. What little national attention and goodwill that Pirate team is drawing will go out the window if they want to make much of a deal out of this or anything else. So yes, get Cole all warmed up--I'm sure you'll get Matt Williams' attention--and see how that ends for the Bucs.

They do like to pitch inside. Here I thought that was "playing the game the right way". My bad. I forgot millionaires can't have the ball come close to them.

And of course, getting revenge for losing your star is the exact same thing as getting revenge for losing a perfect game. Especially when the pitcher himself has already taken full responsibility for how terrible the pitch was. Again. My mistake. I guess I need to read up on this stuff.

Tom C

[nolemmings]

First of all, it was Orioles1954 who said "Scherzer threw the ball inside and missed the zone by about a foot.", so I was not responding to you.
Second, it doesn't matter where he was trying to throw it, and of course I recognize it was a bad pitch as did everyone else. That is irrelevant to whether the rule applies and whether Tabata deliberately tried to get hit. Are you suggesting that the rule should apply if Scherzer tried to throw a brushback pitch intentionally and just missed "his spot" by an inch or two, but since he threw a slower breaking pitch that didn't break and missed his target by a lot the rule somehow does not apply? That makes little sense.

Again, hats off to Scherzer all around. He probably does not have a right to rely on that rule being enforced, especially as it is a judgment call, but it would have been nice to see it and would not have cheapened anything had it been enforced, IMO. Personally, I think it was bush league of Tabata. I'm confident if that would have been Drysdale or Gibson out there in the 60's, Tabata could count on getting plunked a time or four thereafter. Hell Pedro and Randy Johnson likely would do the same. Time will tell.

[nolemmings]

I guess I need to read up on this stuff.

Yeah, you might want to.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

First of all, it was Orioles1954 who said "Scherzer threw the ball inside and missed the zone by about a foot.", so I was not responding to you.
Second, it doesn't matter where he was trying to throw it, and of course I recognize it was a bad pitch as did everyone else. That is irrelevant to whether the rule applies and whether Tabata deliberately tried to get hit. Are you suggesting that the rule should apply if Scherzer tried to throw a brushback pitch intentionally and just missed "his spot" by an inch or two, but since he threw a slower breaking pitch that didn't break and missed his target by a lot the rule somehow does not apply? That makes little sense.

Again, hats off to Scherzer all around. He probably does not have a right to rely on that rule being enforced, especially as it is a judgment call, but it would have been nice to see it and would not have cheapened anything had it been enforced, IMO. Personally, I think it was bush league of Tabata. I'm confident if that would have been Drysdale or Gibson out there in the 60's, Tabata could count on getting plunked a time or four thereafter. Hell Pedro and Randy Johnson likely would do the same. Time will tell.

I agree with you regarding the rule. Tabata did not try to get out of the way of the pitch. My beef is you advocating that Scherzer plunk the guy for doing it. That and using the Goldschmidt fiasco to help with your reasoning of how it would go for the Pirates.

For one thing, Goldschmidt was hit by a curve ball by a terrible pitcher by accident. A pitch that he seemed to move the wrong way on and actually moved his hands into the path of the ball. A curve ball. Not intentional. Hitting McCutchen on the back with a fastball....not the same thing. I understand why it happened, but to somehow equate that the Pirates had it coming because a curve ball from a terrible pitcher got away from him and Goldschmidt made the unlucky split second decision to move his hands INTO the path of the ball? Again, my bad.

For another thing, how in heck does breaking up a perfect game on a pitch that the pitcher himself took responsibility for even remotely call for your endorsement for him to get hit? As much as I can't stand Jose Tabata, he does not deserve to get hit for that. For being bad at Baseball, sure. But not for that.

And my general angst at the topic is not geared towards you. It is more for the media talking head types with a general case of panty-bunchitis over the issue.

Tom C

[nolemmings]

You're all over the place. Not once did you say the rule might, could or should apply--you basically held fast to your notion that since it was a bad pitch nothing else matters. Glad to see that you're back on point.

Next,I am not advocating that Scherzer do anything. I'm stating now that I thought it was a bush league play, and I expressing my opinion that I have no problem with Tabata getting plunked for it--pointing to examples of pitchers who no doubt did or likely would have done the same.

Finally, Goldschmidt was hit by a 93 MPH fastball moving up and in. He was hit in the 9th inning of a 9-4 game with nobody on base. The video is still available. BTW, so is a video of Morneau getting plunked the pitch after McCutcheon stood and admired his 100th career HR. Pirates seem to have difficulty understanding that others may take a different view of their conduct than what they see. Some get tired of hearing they pitch inside to keep the hitters honest and all that. Fine, do it, but if you keep hitting the other teams' players than prepare for the fallout. One is just as old school as the other.

[nolemmings]

And my general angst at the topic is not geared towards you.

Ditto. Sorry if I'm gruff, it's just not been the greatest weekend. Today started at 6:30 a.m. when I rolled over in bed onto a scorpion that thought it wise to sting my right arm. So much for sleeping in on Father's Day. First time for me, and can't say it's been all that fun--those little critters pack a punch.

Yesterday afternoon when going to a birthday party I decided to pull up to the ATM and clipped the curb, putting a two-inch gash in my tire's side wall. Lots of fun trying to change a tire in an asphalt parking lot with 111 degree heat. The hilarity grew after I jacked up the car but found my jack handle/wrench did not match the smaller lug nut size on the tire used by the garage when they last replaced it, making my efforts worthless. Almost four hours and $213 total for the tow truck and new tire (decided doughnut wasn't worth using under the circumstances). A real knee slapper.

So I'm not the world's happiest camper-no excuses, just an explanation.

[btcarfagno]

Absolutely understood and no offense taken at all. I haven't had a good debate about sports for a while. My house consists of myself, my wife and my three daughters. So I'm just having some fun.

Looking at that Goldschmidt video the ball looks to be curving downward. If it was a fastball that is my mistake. Unfortunately had Goldy stood still he would have been fine. In trying to avoid the pitch he moved himself into position to get hit on the hands.

And yes, Cutch's showboating in the past has drawn my ire. Other teams should not appreciate that. It's why I hate the Brewers as currently constituted.

And I hate Tabata. Just as a former pitcher I don't understand the hubub when he missed his spot by close to 2 feet.

Tom C

[t206blogcom]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Hi Jason,
The wife and I were also at today's game, but you are one up on me, having also witnessed J Zim's no-hitter last year. I agree with those that feel Tabata didn't really try to avoid the pitch. As the game wore on, I was concerned that the major thunderstorms heading toward DC might interrupt the game before it was completed, possibly resulting in a rain delay that would last too long for Scherzer to be able to resume pitching. But, Scherzer is a fast worker on the mound, and fortunately, the storms held off until shortly after the game ended. However, the coming storms did prompt the Nats' management to cancel the scheduled seniors-stroll-the-bases after the game, which the wife and I were looking forward to. And, driving home after the game to where we live in a distant VA suburb was no picnic.
Val

Hey Val - Glad you were able to witness history! I felt the crowd was more into Zimmermann's no hitter, especially with the fantastic final catch. I too was closely watching the weather. My drive home is further west than yours on 66 and it was a tough one. My neighbor's house was struck by lightening during the storm; scary stuff. See you at the next Chantilly show.

Jason

[tjb1952tjb]

Still waiting for my San Diego Padres to have its FIRST no-hitter...........sigh.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

First of all, it was Orioles1954 who said "Scherzer threw the ball inside and missed the zone by about a foot.", so I was not responding to you.
Second, it doesn't matter where he was trying to throw it, and of course I recognize it was a bad pitch as did everyone else. That is irrelevant to whether the rule applies and whether Tabata deliberately tried to get hit. Are you suggesting that the rule should apply if Scherzer tried to throw a brushback pitch intentionally and just missed "his spot" by an inch or two, but since he threw a slower breaking pitch that didn't break and missed his target by a lot the rule somehow does not apply? That makes little sense.

Again, hats off to Scherzer all around. He probably does not have a right to rely on that rule being enforced, especially as it is a judgment call, but it would have been nice to see it and would not have cheapened anything had it been enforced, IMO. Personally, I think it was bush league of Tabata. I'm confident if that would have been Drysdale or Gibson out there in the 60's, Tabata could count on getting plunked a time or four thereafter. Hell Pedro and Randy Johnson likely would do the same. Time will tell.

Not that I advocate drilling people, but one of the great moments I have seen came during yet another bad blood game between the Red Sox and Indians in the late 90s or early 2000s. In the home half of the eighth inning, after stuff had been accelerating the whole game including a mound charge or two, Nagy drilled one of the Sox batters. Pedro who probably would normally have come out of the game insisted he return to the mound for the ninth. The umpire went out to warn him, but everyone in the ballpark knew he was going to drill the first batter which he proceeded to do with the first pitch. And not with a fluff pitch either, with a hard fastball to the backside. He was completely unapologetic afterwards.

[Fred]

Max could still pull of the Vandy feat if he thows a no-no in his next start...

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Yes, Yes- but I still feel more sympathy for Armando Galarraga.

That was a BIG shame...but both he and the ump were real men about it.

...and Galarraga never got another chance at history.


On the other hand, I'll bet Scherzer will have at least two more no-hitters in his career. Now, of course there is no way to predict such a thing, but when he's on, not many can touch him.

In the Detroit area, Galarraga is noted for having pitched the longest perfect game, retiring beyond a shadow of a doubt 28 men in a row.

Best to all,

Larry

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

In the Detroit area, Galarraga is noted for having pitched the longest perfect game, retiring beyond a shadow of a doubt 28 men in a row.

Best to all,

Larry

In the Pittsburgh area that honor belongs to Harvey Haddix.

Tom C

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Fred

Max could still pull of the Vandy feat if he thows a no-no in his next start...

Against the Phillies, that IS somewhat likely.