Cooperstown 1909 - Were Gandil, Chase & Cicotte Crooked in '09?

[frankbmd]

Just a thought to share and ponder, but what if the Hall of Fame held an election including current players in 1909. Who would be in and who would be out? Nominate a player for the 1909 Cooperstown Hall of Fame. Consider only the player's career until that date and state your reason for your nomination. I'll try to keep a list in this post, if anyone wants to play this "what if" exercise. I am adding Posts primarily with a single player and a reason. Blanket statements, such as all 300 game winners in the 19th century, are not being included although individual players may certainly warrant inclusion a reason. Anyone added by me may also be voted "off the island", so to speak, if there is a ground swell of negative comments. Cap Anson may be considered on the bubble in this regard. Rhett, I have included Williamson, but will not add a list. Nothing personal in any of the above, just trying to define a structure that will work, sort of. Spalding was listed with credentials but the others were not. This does not mean they are out, but I am adding only those with a reason associated with them.
Anyone previous named but not listed is still a potential nominee.

1. Jesse Burkett - playing career ended in 1905. HOF statistics all are okay. Catchy last name.
2. Cy Young - Post #3
3. Cap Anson - Post #8
4. Ned Williamson - Post #5
5. Ross Barnes - Post #6
6. Willie Keeler - Post #9
7. Hoss Radbourn - Post #10
8. Dan Brouthers - Post #11
9. Christy Mathewson - Post #13
10. Buck Ewing - Post #22
11. King Kelley - Post #22
12. Henry Chadwick - Post #22
13. George Wright - Post #22
14. Harry Wright - Post #22
15. Al Spalding - Post #23
16. Roger Connor - Post #25
17. Jake Beckley - Post #25

[Peter_Spaeth]

Frank, you are at an advantage here in that you had the benefit of seeing these players in person.

[Eric72]

Cy Young - stats through 1909 included nearly 500 Wins...pretty sure that gets him in.

[usernamealreadytaken]

Adam Dunn. Oh wait . . . wrong thread.

Cy Young. Reason: pretty good pitcher (just shy of 500 wins at that time).

[rhettyeakley]

I imagine some of the 19th Century guys that had to wait so long would have been enshrined earlier (obviously) and some that have never made the Hall would have already been in there by the time 1936 rolled around.

Some likely early enshrinees that are yet to be inducted may have included:
-Ned Williamson (The 1894 Reach Guide cited a 9 person poll, and James Hart, Jim O'Rourke, & Arthur Irwin called Ned Williamson the games greatest player.)
-Charlie Bennett
-Herman Long
-Dummy Hoy
-Tony Mullane
-Al Reach
-Bill Lange
-Harry Stovey
-Ross Barnes
-Levi Meyerle
-Bob Caruthers
-Jim McCormick
-Will White (Deacon's brother)
-Bobby Mathews
-etc.

[Paul S]

Timing is everything. As other have stated, Denton T. However, by 1909 Ross Barnes had already burned through professional baseball. He exceeded rookie limits during 1871 season; Out of baseball after 1881; Only played nine seasons, missing two of them. Check out his stats. I have this strange feeling that almost thirty years after his career ended the 1909 editions of BBWA and SABR weren't interested

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Paul S

Timing is everything. As other have stated, Denton T. However, by 1909 Ross Barnes had already burned through professional baseball. He exceeded rookie limits during 1871 season; Out of baseball after 1871; Only played nine seasons, missing two of them. Check out his stats. I have this strange feeling that almost thirty years after his career ended the 1909 editions of BBWA and SABR weren't interested

Hi Paul,

Ah, Ross Barnes. Master of fair-foul hitting, a long extinct part of the game...even in 1909. Great batsman and 4-time hits leader. Also hit .400 or better four times.

He would get my vote, if I were alive back then and able to cast one.

Best regards,

Eric

[mattsey9]

Cap Anson would have to be in. In 1909, he had more hits than any other player in the history of the game. Further, he helped spread the game globally with his participation in a world tour of barnstormers.

[LKeeler]

Hit 'em where they ain't, Willie Keeler. 1909 was Keeler's 18th season, and he was sitting on 2,929 hits when the season concluded.

[cardsfan73]

Hoss Radbourn

309 Wins against 194 losses

502 Games started w/ 488 Complete games.

His 1884 season was insane.. 73 starts, 73 complete games and appeared in two games in relief!

[Mountaineer1999]

Dan Brouthers. Led league in hitting 5 times HR and RBI twice. (1880-1896), Would have led league in slugging and OPS six straight years.

Ed Delahanty. 2597 hits , lifetime .346 hitter, 1466 RBI (1888-1903)

[Peter_Spaeth]

I assume all the 300 game winners from the 19th Century. The aforementioned Radbourn, plus Keefe Nichols Welch Galvin and Clarkson. Is this thread supposed to be more than name the greatest 19th century players?

[clydepepper]

Well, Matty was 236-112 thu '09, so I'd vote for him. I guess it's easier to come up with more from the 19th Century than just the first decade of the 20th.

I would also include:

Joe McGinnity
Honus Wagnmer
Sam Thompson
A.G. Spalding


I think they had all earned at least a good ballot by then.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Hi Paul,

Ah, Ross Barnes. Master of fair-foul hitting, a long extinct part of the game...even in 1909. Great batsman and 4-time hits leader. Also hit .400 or better four times.

He would get my vote, if I were alive back then and able to cast one.

Best regards,

Eric

Eric- If you had been around back then, you would have been WAY too young to vote.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by mattsey9

Cap Anson would have to be in. In 1909, he had more hits than any other player in the history of the game. Further, he helped spread the game globally with his participation in a world tour of barnstormers.

He was certainly a great player, but proclaiming that he "helped spread the game globally" is a bit too nice. He is also credited with being one of the most racially intolerant players of the day, refusing to play exhibition games (and even major league games) versus dark-skinned players.

He was also known to have been one of the most prolific bettors on baseball, yet he is in the Hall. If you did a recast of voting today, I wouldn't be surprised if he is no longer "first ballot". But, Frank asked us what voters would have thought in 1909. The answer is yes, he's in.

[Louieman]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

He was certainly a great player, but proclaiming that he "helped spread the game globally" is a bit too nice. He is also credited with being one of the most racially intolerant players of the day, refusing to play exhibition games (and even major league games) versus dark-skinned players.

He was also known to have been one of the most prolific bettors on baseball, yet he is in the Hall. If you did a recast of voting today, I wouldn't be surprised if he is no longer "first ballot". But, Frank asked us what voters would have thought in 1909. The answer is yes, he's in.

+1

If we go by the Halls rules, 10 years in the bigs minimum, I'd have to start with some obvious ones Nap Lajoie (1896-), Honus Wagner (1897-), and Sam Crawford (1899-), though their careers were just getting started. If I can only have one pick I'll go with Wee Willie Keeler, career .340+ batting average, and 2900+ hits whose playing days ended in 1910.

Great question, I would have said Fleet Walker but that would not have happened in 1909.

[frankbmd]

The list has been updated and an attempt to clarify "rules" has been included in the original post. These of course are still subject to change on a whim of the OP.

[Kenny Cole]

So a question. Are we using the rules as originally implemented in 1936? The reason I ask is that there was no waiting period then (not until 1945) and there was no character, integrity or sportsmanship provision until 1945 either. Whether or not those rules are considered to be in effect makes a pretty substantial difference in who I might vote for.

[Eric72]

OK, I will be the one...

I nominate Hal Chase.

He was eventually proven to be a crooked ballplayer; however, appears on five different T206 cards...including two of the six "Super Prints." The other four are Cobb, Evers, Chance, and Matty.

To me, that speaks to his popularity. And another Hal Chase card depicts him holding a trophy. Clearly, he was an early hobby darling. The ATC had their finger on the pulse of Baseball and knew what they were doing, right?

So, in summary, he was a great ballplayer in 1909, even if he was a bit shady. My opinion is that he would have been voted in. After all, induction into the Hall is just as much a popularity contest as anything else.

Best regards,

Eric

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Eric72

OK, I will be the one...

I nominate Hal Chase.

He was eventually proven to be a crooked ballplayer; however, appears on five different T206 cards...including two of the six "Super Prints." The other four are Cobb, Evers, Chance, and Matty.

To me, that speaks to his popularity. And another Hal Chase card depicts him holding a trophy. Clearly, he was an early hobby darling. The ATC had their finger on the pulse of Baseball and knew what they were doing, right?

So, in summary, he was a great ballplayer in 1909, even if he was a bit shady. My opinion is that he would have been voted in. After all, induction into the Hall is just as much a popularity contest as anything else.

Best regards,

Eric

Eric,

Hal Chase was in fact the inspiration for this thread. I also believe that his penchant for throwing games related to gambling did not begin until 1910. And although regarded as one of the best firstbasemen in 1909, his playing career did not begin until 1905, so he probably should not be included here.
The same would apply to Cobb and a few others, whose body of work occurred after 1909.
Chase would probably have been selected for the 1909 All-Star team though. (Smell another thread here?)

[wolf441]

Buck Ewing and Mike "King" Kelly were certainly highly thought of in 1909. I'd also include Henry Chadwick and George and Harry Wright as they were well remembered at the time for their part in the development of the game.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by Louieman

+1

Anson was not elected until 1939, so that was actually the 4th ballot.

[bwbc917]

How about some of the pioneers: Candy Cummings, Levi Meyerle, and Bobby Mathews, and let's not forget Al Spalding who went 37-8 one season, but even more impressive was 57-5 in 1875.

[bwbc917]

If Ned W. gets sooooo much attention for his 27 HR on a short fence that was originally only a ground rule double if the ball cleared it, how about Roger Connor who in 1909 was the reigning HR king with 136 and second in triples to Jake Beckley.