Carl Horner photo- ID help

[Leon]

I picked up this Horner photo on ebay recently and discovered it's probably not Larry Mclean. I am wondering if it could be "John" Mclean? I heisted a couple of pics from ebay to help. I already have a deal with the seller for a return if it's not at least "one" of the Mcleans . Any and all help is appreciated!!

[jthorn]

It's a catcher ... not McLean but Chief Meyers, I believe.

john thorn

[Leon]

There is a resemblence to Chief Meyers, no doubt. This Horner photo could be an early picture of him but all of the pictures I have seen of Chief Meyers have his left eyebrow as being somewhat "up" on the outside part of it, like he was cut there and got stitches, or something?

[slidekellyslide]

Hey, John Thorn posts here? Who knew?

As for the photo, I saw it on ebay and tried to compare it to McLean, but just wasn't sure. It's definitely not Chief Meyers.

[jthorn]

Gentle men of good will may disagree, of course. But I will stick to my identification of our chap as Meyers, and offer a portrait from 1910 by Paul Thompson as "evidence."

john thorn

[bmarlowe1]

It's neither of the McLean's (clearly) , nor is it Chief Meyers (whom it at least does resemble) - the ears do not match (nor do several other features).

I'll post photos later.

Leon - why didn't you ask me first?

[jthorn]

OK, if Mark F thinks it's not Meyers, I go to Plan B: umpire Bill Klem. See below, from 1914.

john thorn

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

It's neither of the McLean's (clearly) , nor is it Chief Meyers (whom it at least does resemble) - the ears do not match (nor do several other features).

I'll post photos later.

Leon - why didn't you ask me first?

Hey Mark
First of all thanks for helping. I knew I could count on you!! And no disrespect meant towards jthorn either. I appreciate all of the help very much.
It was a last minute bid...and knowing the seller very well I knew he would work with me (which he has agreed to do) if it isn't a "Mclean". Us Texans stick together fairly well .

[bmarlowe1]

Hi John.

OK - like at least many hundreds of people at the time - the guy kind of resembles Chief Meyers. So what? He is not in a Giant's uniform, he is not with easily recognizable team-mates. He is just a guy in an old photo in a suit that resembles Meyers. That alone means that it is very highly unlikley that it is Meyers.

As to analysis - the ear mis-match is striking - we know for sure it is not Meyers. (also the nose is way different). It's also not McLean - Leon go get your money back.

[slidekellyslide]

The photo on Meyer's Colgan's chip card(scan borrowed from Rhett's site - Thanks Rhett!) is probably a Horner photo.

[Leon]

Mark,
THANKS again....will do. BTW, it was Jon Richmond as the seller (jonnstats) and he is a great guy, in the true sense of the word. I told him if it wasn't Mclean, and I didn't think it was, it was just another guy in a suit (my exact words)....take care

[drc]

It doesn't have to be a baseball player.

[jthorn]

But it is a ballplayer! I seem to have missed with Meyers and Klem but dammit, I have hit paydirt with Leon "Red" Ames. See below.

john thorn

[mr2686]

Here's another picture

[drc]

Duly note that with the non-card images, the majority of Horner's baseball photos are of NY Giants players. If one found an odd Horner baseball photo, statistical odds would be the player would a Giant.

[slidekellyslide]

I don't think it's Ames either

[prewarsports]

I would not worry too much about it not being a baseball player. It was from the Christies sale of the Baseball Magazine archives so there is little doubt the photo pictures a Baseball Player and was probably misidentified years later. I am sure the exact image will turn up eventually on a composite and it could be a complete nobody, but I would be pretty sure with the provenance that it is a Baseball player. That is the first Horner I have seen that is not an albumem photo glued to a mount (at least that is how it appears).

Rhys

[bmarlowe1]

Not Ames - ears don't match, upper lip/filtrum is different.

[DixieBaseball]

Ames... This image compared to this Ames picture looks strikingly similar. The 2 photo's that Mark used for comparison don't as much. (The thick lips, point to the nose, the ears, eyes, and eyebrows look very similar)

[bmarlowe1]

Comparison -photos aren't chosen because they do or do not look similar to the photo in question. They are chosen because they are clear and at least close in angle to that photo, allowing for the best possible objective detailed feature matching.

If the critical features don't match, then it's not him. Finding a 3rd photo that looks subjectively more similar adds nothing useful. BTW - the upper lip structure in all the posted photos of Ames is completley different than that in Leon's photo.

[rhettyeakley]

Jeremy, they aren't the same player. The area below the philtrum on the vermilion of Ames' lips has a very distinct protrusion not seen on the Horner photo, Ames almost has a small cleft at the base. Also the "Cupid's bow" of the two players' lips are different.

[bmarlowe1]

BTW - either spelling of philtrum (filtrum) is correct.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I would not worry too much about it not being a baseball player. It was from the Christies sale of the Baseball Magazine archives so there is little doubt the photo pictures a Baseball Player and was probably misidentified years later. I am sure the exact image will turn up eventually on a composite and it could be a complete nobody, but I would be pretty sure with the provenance that it is a Baseball player. That is the first Horner I have seen that is not an albumem photo glued to a mount (at least that is how it appears).

Rhys

I should have mentioned there is in fact a Christies sticker on the back of the photo. As for it not being on a mount, I concur, I don't remember seeing others not on a mount. That, in itself, was not an alarm to me though. I didn't think that was a big deal. So a return will be done unless someone wants it for what I paid for it, which was about $195 (I think)....See how I snuck in a BST on the forum? (bad me.....)

Thanks again for all of the help and responses.....

[rman444]

I was bidding on this cabinet and wasn't sure about the photo match as well. I guess anyone can look like anyone if you look long enough at it. Throw in a couple of rum and cokes and it takes much less time!

[bmarlowe1]

from my previous post: "It's neither of the McLean's..."

Correcting myself, note that John McLean and Larry McLean are one person - ML career 1901 - 1915.

[thekingofclout]

mattybyvanoeyen.jpg

[jthorn]

see the attached--a Horner Ames...

john thorn

[bmarlowe1]

Even the hairline does not match. The distance from the brow line to the center part is considerably larger for Ames than the unknown guy.

[Kawika]

Carl Horner Red Ames cabinet on eBay: http://tinyurl.com/ykhjgd5
"Only small amounts of front surface paper speck loss takes away from the overall grade." Virtually pristine, you might say. SGC is really hard on paper loss.
(Not wishing to rekindle the Ames vs. not-Ames discussion).

[thekingofclout]

You are a Man amongst men.

[Kawika]

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[thekingofclout]

Originally Posted by Kawika

Carl Horner Red Ames cabinet on eBay: http://tinyurl.com/ykhjgd5
"Only small amounts of front surface paper speck loss takes away from the overall grade." Virtually pristine, you might say. SGC is really hard on paper loss.
(Not wishing to rekindle the Ames vs. not-Ames discussion).

SGC says it's Ames.

[Kawika]

Jimmy: The eBay Horner cab of Ames is the same image as was posted earlier in this thread (posts 14 &19) in an attempt to match up with Leon's cabinet. The fact that SGC has ID'ed the New York ballplayer as Ames still doesn't prove that Leon's guy is Ames. There seems to be two distinct camps in this thread: Mark and his objective methods and everybody else who thinks it sure as hell looks like Ames. The point of me posting the eBay link was, well, I don't know what the point was, except for it was marginally relevant to the subject at hand, and now I wish I hadn't because it might beget another round of disagreement. Anyway, it would be a dandy cabinet to add to one's collection were it not for those pesky specks of paper loss.
Over and out.

[bmarlowe1]

The photo on eBay is Ames. The photo Leon inquired about is another human being - one of the at least thousands of contemporary white males who had some superficial resemblance to Ames, but on close inspection of details the differences are very clear.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by jthorn

I Still Say It's Ames......
john thorn

The photo in question (below right) was identified as boxing promoter Alec Mclean in the May 1911 issue of Baseball Magazine (below left). Thanks to Kawika for finding this.

Kawika said above, "There seems to be two distinct camps in this thread: Mark and his objective methods and everybody else who thinks it sure as hell looks like Ames."
The important point here is not about being right as to a single photo, it's about a methodology that produces accurate results vs. one that clearly does not.

[peterose4hof]

Sorry to bring this old thread back from the dead, but I was wondering what is the value of a Horner Cabinet of a relative unknown like Mr. McLean "the Boxing Promoter"?

Consequently, this thread is a fascinating read.