e90-1 miller w/sunset reprisal...who's got one?

[ullmandds]

Scott's well thought out interpretation of the scarcities present in e90-1 spawned discussion regarding the dots miller w/sunset variation. Most...I'd surmise 95% or more of e90-1 millers found are the bland bluer version without the sunset that is present on EVERY OTHER dots miller sharing this pose in EVERY OTHER E, D, T set.

This variation has been discussed before...but only in the recent past. I wonder if this variation was known 20-30 yrs ago? I also wonder if set collectors of this set...TBOB, TONYA, TEDZ, SCOTTF...do you guys have this variation in your set?

Why won't the grading companies recognize it and slab it as such...LAME!!!!!

I don't think are that many of them out there...In fact I think single digits.

So Who has one?

Post em if you got em!

ps...if you want to learn about e90-1 check out Scott's thread!

[marcdelpercio]

Here are the pics of mine from the other thread. I was quite surprised, when I originally posted the thread about this variation, that nobody else mentioned that they had noticed or discussed it before. It's kind of impossible to miss if you look at the cards side by side.

[ullmandds]

Here are mine. Although I just realized the back that corresponds to the common drab version on the left is actually the back of my other e90-1 miller...it's obviously in nicer condition!!!!!

[honus94566]

I have one. I will post a scan of it tomorrow. In the other thread scottfandango mentioned so far not seeing a "shaded reverse border" sunset version. I am kind of confused about that, can anyone clarify?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Scott's well thought out interpretation of the scarcities present in e90-1 spawned discussion regarding the dots miller w/sunset variation. Most...I'd surmise 95% or more of e90-1 millers found are the bland bluer version without the sunset that is present on EVERY OTHER dots miller sharing this pose in EVERY OTHER E, D, T set.

This variation has been discussed before...but only in the recent past. I wonder if this variation was known 20-30 yrs ago? I also wonder if set collectors of this set...TBOB, TONYA, TEDZ, SCOTTF...do you guys have this variation in your set?

Why won't the grading companies recognize it and slab it as such...LAME!!!!!

I don't think are that many of them out there...In fact I think single digits.

So Who has one?

Post em if you got em!

ps...if you want to learn about e90-1 check out Scott's thread!

Pete

As we all know....the multi-ink lithographic process used to print these Candy (and Tobacco) cards of that era applied the RED ink last. Therefore, in my opinion,
the Miller card without the "sunset" is not a true variation. It is simply a printing error of which the printer missed the last pass of RED ink. And, does not warrant
recognition by the grading companies. Sorry, to differ with you.

The lack of the sunset effect on the E90 Miller card is probably found as rarely as the ORANGE T206 red portrait Cobb card. I'm not aware that this Cobb printing
error is recognized as a variation.





My first E90-1 set (sold) had a Miller with the sunset effect. And, my 2nd set (a work in progress) does not yet have a Miller card.


TED Z

[ullmandds]

Ted...you have things backwards? The "with sunset" e90-1 miller is the one that should be a variation...as a tiny % of known examples have the red added. The more common miller w/no sunset should not be considered a variation as this is the norm...not an error at all?

Not sure if I agree with your orange cobb analogy either? Just my opinion?!

[pkaufman]

here's mine

[ullmandds]

nice Paul...the tally is at 3!

[Leon]

Does this count?

[pkaufman]

Ken Madden posted his yesterday.....that would make four.

And Leon.........no!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by pkaufman

Ken Madden posted his yesterday.....that would make four.

And Leon.........no!

c'mon, just play like he's not standing in a puddle and it's fairly close....

[pkaufman]

Marc, most of these variations go unnoticed for so long because collectors often do not have quantities of a specific caramel card for comparisons to be made. Congratulations again on a great find! BTW, later I will post scans of a Clarke Pittsburgh variation that I have noticed.

[honus94566]

Here is mine:

[ullmandds]

nice one Dave...thats 5!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Ted...you have things backwards? The "with sunset" e90-1 miller is the one that should be a variation...as a tiny % of known examples have the red added. The more common miller w/no sunset should not be considered a variation as this is the norm...not an error at all?

Not sure if I agree with your orange cobb analogy either? Just my opinion?!

Pete

I stand corrected.....however, my first E90-1 set had a Miller with the sunset variation....and, the E92's and E101's I had also had the sunset effect.

Therefore, I thought the few Miller's I saw missing the redish coloring were the exceptions. So, I guess you have seen many more E90-1 Miller's than
I have.


TED Z

[ScottFandango]

is it possible the sunset is more frequent?

Miller is no common! the card doesn't show up that often in either variation..

Hear Ye Hear Ye.....post ALL your Miller E90s!

[ullmandds]

scott...r u kidding me!!!!!!!! do a google search for e90-1 miller and you will see hardly any w/sunset. Do an ebay search...I have been following them on ebay for over 1 1/2 yrs and not 1 has appeared on fleabay.

The sunset is infinitely(maybe infinitely is a strong word!) scarcer than the non.

[ullmandds]

OK...I retract my previous statement as google/ebay searches don't reveal much of anything with this card!!!!!!!!

But I am positive the sunset version is much tougher than the non.

Perhaps a new poll for those owning an e90-1 miller...which one do you own?

[honus94566]

It may be tougher to find, but I don't think it's all that scarce. There are probably quite a few of them out there. If we have already found 5 net54 members that have posted their card, that's still gotta be only a small slice of the total population of the card.

[ullmandds]

dave...b careful there...most of those shown are not e90-1!

[honus94566]

Gotcha.

One thing's for sure. This is one of the fugliest cards out there. From the ridiculous proportions of his body to the oversized glove to the sunset that looks like a 2 year old colored with a crayon... lol.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

OK...I retract my previous statement as google/ebay searches don't reveal much of anything with this card!!!!!!!!

But I am positive the sunset version is much tougher than the non.

Perhaps a new poll for those owning an e90-1 miller...which one do you own?

I own 2 no sunset...


dave, there are only 51 total graded versions of this card so we are already up to 10% of the pop....we will soon see!

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by honus94566

Gotcha.

One thing's for sure. This is one of the fugliest cards out there. From the ridiculous proportions of his body to the oversized glove to the sunset that looks like a 2 year old colored with a crayon... lol.

maybe that is the draw to some people

pete? is that why you collect this pose? its FUGLYNESS?

[ullmandds]

I currently have 1 of each...another no sunset I own(ed) is in Lee's current Sterling auction...and I have owned another non-sunset that has since flown the coop! I had to actively seek one out w/sunset...and I feel lucky to have it.

I'll do more research at the national...unfortunately the e90-1 sets on the psa registry dont contain any pics so no way to know what those are.

[ullmandds]

Yes...I like FUGLY!

[deadballfreaK]

Ok you twisted my arm. Here it is again. After reading about this card yesterday I was inspired to obtain the non sunset version. Took a look at ebay and no Millers of any kind. And I imagine when it comes to Dots Miller fielding Pete is the expert.

[ullmandds]

Expert?! Who knows...but I do track all miller fielding cards pretty thoroughly!

[nolemmings]

From a non-collector of the set--- it seems to me that the artwork on the Miller evolved or progressed over time. In looking at Pete's collection of the various Millers with this pose, the E90-1 card is the only one showing the card without a sunset. It also is the only one showing the player with lighter colored shoes and cap. Its "sunset" is the only one (other than Mino) to show only red and orange solid--the others have some yellow tints, and it is the only one (again except for Mino) that lacks even a hint of blue shadow by his feet.

Seems like the artist(s) kept adding things during and after the initial e90-1 no sunset, and therefore perhaps the sunset variation came from a later (shorter?) print run of e90-1?

[ullmandds]

todd...what about e102...wouldn't this have been the earliest(one of the earliest) of the issues containing this pose?

[nolemmings]

I don't know Pete--I'm not an E-card guy (gasp) and am just theorizing. Seems to me that the exact dating and order of the E90ish caramel sets is not set in stone--aren't many in the late 1908 to 1910 range? It just seems apparent to me with the various changes to the Miller card throughout the several sets that there were multiple print runs of e90-1 and that this is a separate card created on purpose rather than any inking variation. It also looks like things were being added rather than subtracted so that the no sunset was likely first.

[ScottFandango]

maybe they noticed how the red ran into his uniform and decided it looked bad, so they changed it to contain no red...

[ullmandds]

Interesting theory Todd and Scott...although they seemed to like the red in later issues like t216, E105?

[nolemmings]

I hope Pete doesn't mind that I pilfered his scan from another thread to show the various changes:

[MMarvelli]

Originally Posted by honus94566

Gotcha.

One thing's for sure. This is one of the fugliest cards out there. From the ridiculous proportions of his body to the oversized glove to the sunset that looks like a 2 year old colored with a crayon... lol.

Funny but I started collecting Dots Miller cards just because I thought this image was so cool. But I prefer the obscure and strange more than the mainstream.

E90-1 Dots Miller with and without Front.jpg


E90-1 Dots Miller with and without Back.jpg

[deadballfreaK]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I hope Pete doesn't mind that I pilfered his scan from another thread to show the various changes:

This photo needs to be updated to show the D303.

[ScottFandango]

thanks for posting...

is it possible to get a better resolution scan of the back of your no sunset Miller? possible shaded borders..

[MMarvelli]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

thanks for posting...

is it possible to get a better resolution scan of the back of your no sunset Miller? possible shaded borders..

Here is a higher resolution. Let me know if this works for you. I must be honest I am unclear what 'we' are looking for regarding the "possible shaded borders" and I cant seem to find reference to it in the thread. If this doesnt work, PM me and perhaps we can figure something else out.


E90-1 Dots Miller (no sunset) Back hi res.jpg

[ScottFandango]

YES! that is shaded reverse borders! look at the baseball top half, its shaded too!

search my thread a few years on SHADED REVERSE BORDERS for this issue..

don't want to derail this thread, but only a small group of E90-1 have been seen with both shaded backs and normal backs varieties...

it was decided after that thread that this was a "printing error" and not a true variation, but I never took that as gospel....however when it PREDICTABLY shows up in only CERTAIN (no commons BTW) then its not a random printing error in my book! Unfortunately I was unable to convince Bob Lemke at the time....

[Troy Kirk]

Here's my Miller.

[ullmandds]

I certainly don't mind you posting my millers...thanks to Chris Browne for making the grid for me...I sent him the d303 scan to add but it was during the big flood! Or maybe he sent it to me and I didn't even see it!!!!!

[edhans]

Mine is the sunset version. Don't have it scanned right now. I suspect that whichever variation turns out to be tougher, it will be roughly equivalent to the difficult variations of Pirates stars Leach, Gibson, and Wagner. They were all probably printed at the same time.

[CaramelMan]

This is a very cool thread...I have noticed this in the past but thought it must have been decided long ago it wasn't a variation...however I'm not so sure

[ullmandds]

hey scott...I think you may have posted the wrong scan? I presume from your response you have both Miller cards? Which have you seen more of...sunset...or none?

[CaramelMan]

The other i have is No Sunset also, at SGC...
I think the sunset version is more rare.


------------------
Scott