It's now official - Mastro trimmed hisT206 Wagner

[David W]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-bi...0451--mlb.html

What a surprise.....

[CMIZ5290]

I'm still trying to figure out how in the world a PSA 5(MC) goes for $2.1 Mil. Makes you wonder what a legit PSA 8 would sell for....

[dabigyankeeman]

Whats so pitiful is that some people are saying the card will go UP in value instead of down, because of it becoming the infamous trimmed Wagner. Geez.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by dabigyankeeman

Whats so pitiful is that some people are saying the card will go UP in value instead of down, because of it becoming the infamous trimmed Wagner. Geez.

It's like people collecting Black Sox cards, and to a lesser extent the villain Ty Cobb. People like controversy. It sells and people collect it.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by sports.yahoo.com

Through a Diamondbacks spokesperson, Kendrick — the card's current owner — told Yahoo! Sports:
"As a collector of rare cards and a fan who enjoys the history of the game of baseball, today's news does not change my pride in owning the Honus Wagner T-206 card. In fact, I've been advised that the notoriety of this turn of events has actually increased the value of the card and I will continue to enjoy having it as part of the 'Diamondbacks collection.' "

Who advised him? Joe Orlando?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Spin.

[ruth-gehrig]

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

It's like people collecting Black Sox cards, and to a lesser extent the villain Ty Cobb. People like controversy. It sells and people collect it.

+1, well said. Gandil sells fairly well it seems, and I think without the scandal, not so much

[AMBST95]

We'll see what he thinks when it becomes the first Wagner to take a loss in a public sale. If you are a baller kind of collector, writing checks with multiple commas, you want the best, not what used to be the best.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Who advised him? Joe Orlando?

Maybe, and if he did he might be right. I don't condone the fraud with the trimming but it's still the best looking Wags in the hobby. I am still undecided if I think it's value has held. It certainly might have. It's hard to say.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

David Hall is now in an interesting position. He of the magnifying glass.

[Orioles1954]

Best looking? Really? Every time I see that card now I'll think "crimininal", "fraud", "fake" and "trimmed" before "best looking" comes to mind.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Best looking? Really? Every time I see that card now I'll think "crimininal", "fraud", "fake" and "trimmed" before "best looking" comes to mind.

You are entitled to your opinion but no matter what you say, what I said is true.

[barrysloate]

With each past sale, the new owners were certainly aware of the unconfirmed rumor it was trimmed. And they had the right to reject it as merely speculation.

Now it is no longer a rumor, it's a fact. If it comes up for sale, prospective bidders will know that. Will it affect the value? Perhaps a little, but not a lot. It very well may sell for more. Who knows? That's up to the bidders.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

Inexperienced grader.

[bigwinnerx]

Think it'll go for more. It has a story...and what a story. It's not just one of the regular others that come up with every passing REA auction. Gretzky, trimmed, various lawsuits and court cases...it's like a crime novel.

If you have 2 million to spend on a card, it's not your last dollars anyway, and it's a/the storied Wagner. Think of the auction description book that'll be written to describe it and the stories you'll get to pass on at your next swank cocktail party.

[Jay Wolt]

People who purchase T206 Wagner's for 7 figures are a different breed then the rest of us.
If I spend $100 on a card and its deemed altered it keeps me up at night.
To Mr. Kendrick, its a nice card then brings him notoriety and the cost is pocket change to him.
Hell, he's picked up free agents for several million who's ended up being worthless and released.
Not saying Bill Mastro's trim job is justified or condoned, but Mr. Kendrick may look at the $2+ million he spent differently.
He's got exposure and an iconic card and as Leon states, a great looking one at that.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by bigwinnerx

Think it'll go for more. It has a story...and what a story. It's not just one of the regular others that come up with every passing REA auction. Gretzky, trimmed, various lawsuits and court cases...it's like a crime novel.

If you have 2 million to spend on a card, it's not your last dollars anyway, and it's a/the storied Wagner. Think of the auction description book that'll be written to describe it and the stories you'll get to pass on at your next swank cocktail party.

The Cobb/Edwards Wagner has a story too....how much would it sell for?

[ruth-gehrig]

I believe the main issue for us smaller people who can't afford million dollar cards and this hobby as a whole is how many other cards are in holders that don't match the card? How did it get slabbed that way? If it was a collaboration between Mastro and PSA/Orlando will it get admitted to???

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

With each past sale, the new owners were certainly aware of the unconfirmed rumor it was trimmed. And they had the right to reject it as merely speculation.

Now it is no longer a rumor, it's a fact. If it comes up for sale, prospective bidders will know that. Will it affect the value? Perhaps a little, but not a lot. It very well may sell for more. Who knows? That's up to the bidders.

Barry,

I 100% agree with yours and Leon's statement. My thoughts are this: I think the value will remain flat or maybe decline a little IF it is kept in the same PSA holder of a NM-MT 8. We all, I think, should concur that it should reside in a PSA "Authentic" holder and IF that happens (which never will happen, IMO) then the value would drop dramatically.

Greg

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

With each past sale, the new owners were certainly aware of the unconfirmed rumor it was trimmed. And they had the right to reject it as merely speculation.

Now it is no longer a rumor, it's a fact. If it comes up for sale, prospective bidders will know that. Will it affect the value? Perhaps a little, but not a lot. It very well may sell for more. Who knows? That's up to the bidders.

Well said Barry, everyone who was a potential buyer of this card, is going to research the history on it. I doubt, most likely anyone would throw 2mill on a card, or any item for that matter, without researching it.

[David W]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

People who purchase T206 Wagner's for 7 figures are a different breed then the rest of us.
If I spend $100 on a card and its deemed altered it keeps me up at night.
To Mr. Kendrick, its a nice card then brings him notoriety and the cost is pocket change to him.
Hell, he's picked up free agents for several million who's ended up being worthless and released.
Not saying Bill Mastro's trim job is justified or condoned, but Mr. Kendrick may look at the $2+ million he spent differently.
He's got exposure and an iconic card and as Leon states, a great looking one at that.

Yes. Now he has something else to talk about at the Country Club. He already owned the most famous card ever, now he owns the most infamous famous card ever.

[lharri3600]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

Now that's an ez one!

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

Barry,

I 100% agree with yours and Leon's statement. My thoughts are this: I think the value will remain flat or maybe decline a little IF it is kept in the same PSA holder of a NM-MT 8. We all, I think, should concur that it should reside in a PSA "Authentic" holder and IF that happens (which never will happen, IMO) then the value would drop dramatically.

Greg

That's the whole point right there, it's infamous and controversial because of the story behind the PSA 8 slab that it resides in......change it to the correct "A" slab and the allure will all but disappear.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

People who purchase T206 Wagner's for 7 figures are a different breed then the rest of us.
If I spend $100 on a card and its deemed altered it keeps me up at night.
To Mr. Kendrick, its a nice card then brings him notoriety and the cost is pocket change to him.
Hell, he's picked up free agents for several million who's ended up being worthless and released.
Not saying Bill Mastro's trim job is justified or condoned, but Mr. Kendrick may look at the $2+ million he spent differently.
He's got exposure and an iconic card and as Leon states, a great looking one at that.

agreed...future owners of this card won't be collectors, just like the past owners. value of this card won't suddenly have a big drop. it will still be the highest priced wagner. and if kendrick don't get his price, he'll just keep it for his son to play with.

[atx840]

I'd just keep it. Gorgeous card either way.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

That's the whole point right there, it's infamous and controversial because of the story behind the PSA 8 slab that it resides in......change it to the correct "A" slab and the allure will all but disappear.

But as I said several months ago, in a poll, what if (and this won't happen) PSA kept the same grade and flip but put the qualifier (handcut) on it? It would be what it is and still have the grade!! Personally, that is what I think should happen but it's not up to me AND I am in the minority (as usual).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Minority of one i think.

[Blitzu]

That PSA 5 at 2.1 million buy couldn't have come at a better time. Don't they now own the highest legitimate, non altered Wagner now? It's now king of the hill.

That book The Card, really hit the nail in the head. I have a feeling PSA is next....

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

It's like people collecting Black Sox cards, and to a lesser extent the villain Ty Cobb. People like controversy. It sells and people collect it.

I don't think people collect Ty Cobb for being a villain, but for being a Great ballplayer!!!!!

Joe

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Minority of one i think.

C'mon Peter, it was more than that. If I remember correctly (don't challenge me as I will find it) there were about 22% of the respondents that agreed with me. So there was some agreement, just not a lot.

[glynparson]

Is not king of the hill on wagners.

[SushiX37]

Originally Posted by Leon

But as I said several months ago, in a poll, what if (and this won't happen) PSA kept the same grade and flip but put the qualifier (handcut) on it? It would be what it is and still have the grade!! Personally, that is what I think should happen but it's not up to me AND I am in the minority (as usual).

I couldn't agree more. I seem to remember stories from people who saw this card pre-PSA slab, and commented that it was larger then than it is now. Whose to say it wasn't scrap or handcut originally?

Rich

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Leon

no matter what you say, what I said is true.

Well, thank you. Whenever I need to know absolute truth, I know who to go to.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Blitzu

That PSA 5 at 2.1 million buy couldn't have come at a better time. Don't they now own the highest legitimate, non altered Wagner now? It's now king of the hill.

That book The Card, really hit the nail in the head. I have a feeling PSA is next....

There is a PSA 5 with no qualifiers, but I for one don't care about qualifiers but others may. So the 5mc is at best tied for the best unaltered or in second place.

I posted about this in the thread where people were trying to guess the price that the 5mc would go for.

[auggiedoggy]

The PSA 5 without qualifiers is the best Wagner (that we are aware of) out there, no question. The recently auctioned Wagner would get the #2 spot.

BTW, I see that a PSA 1 Wagner owned by Charlie Sheen is up for sale at Robert Edwards Auctions. I'd take that one over the trimmed PSA 8.

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by auggiedoggy

btw, i see that a psa 1 wagner owned by charlie sheen is up for sale at robert edwards auctions. I'd take that one over the trimmed psa 8.

x 2

[E93]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

If it was a collaboration between Mastro and PSA/Orlando will it get admitted to???

For the record, Orlando did not start working at PSA until years after that Wagner was graded. It was the first card PSA graded.

As for the best unaltered Wagner, I think the PSA 5 (not the Jumbo PSA 5 MC) and three raw Wagners in private hands are the top candidates. The Jumbo would probably rank around #5 IMHO. It is a phenomenal card, but there are a few that are slightly better in my opinion, mostly due to not having the angle cut and top of the the adjoining card on the sheet showing.
JimB

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jim, notwithstanding his non-involvement I suspect Joe Orlando has known the truth about the card for some time, but that's just a personal opinion. It will be very interesting to see what David Hall -- who was there -- directs PSA to do now.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by E93

For the record, Orlando did not start working at PSA until years after that Wagner was graded. It was the first card PSA graded.

As for the best unaltered Wagner, I think the PSA 5 (not the Jumbo PSA 5 MC) and three raw Wagners in private hands are the top candidates. The Jumbo would probably rank around #5 IMHO. It is a phenomenal card, but there are a few that are slightly better in my opinion, mostly due to not having the angle cut and top of the the adjoining card on the sheet showing.
JimB

+1

[auggiedoggy]

Originally Posted by E93

As for the best unaltered Wagner, I think the PSA 5 (not the Jumbo PSA 5 MC) and three raw Wagners in private hands are the top candidates.
JimB

Why on earth would someone not have their raw Wagner T206 graded and slabbed?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by auggiedoggy

Why on earth would someone not have their raw Wagner T206 graded and slabbed?

If you know it's real and have no intention of selling it, why bother?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by auggiedoggy

Why on earth would someone not have their raw Wagner T206 graded and slabbed?

If you are not going to sell it, and are not a slab collector, why on earth WOULD you?

I think the current owner of the Mastro Wagner got it right.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Leon

But as I said several months ago, in a poll, what if (and this won't happen) PSA kept the same grade and flip but put the qualifier (handcut) on it? It would be what it is and still have the grade!! Personally, that is what I think should happen but it's not up to me AND I am in the minority (as usual).

then take the jumbo wagner and make that one an (8) hand cut too, or a 9?. the mc qualifier would even go away. you can't just start doing that and changing the rules because a trimmed card looks good.

everyone would start claiming their card came from a sheet and how do you prove it didn't? how do you prove that the gretzky wagner came from a sheet. prove it, not just conjecture. then the sheet mate plank would get a handcut too. instead, it resides in an A holder (trimmed) and the wagner doesn't? psa had too much to gain with debut card #1.

[barrysloate]

The finest untrimmed Wagner is owned by one of our board members and he has no intention of ever getting it professionally graded. He's simply not interested and doesn't care.

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The finest untrimmed Wagner is owned by one of our board members and he has no intention of ever getting it professionally graded. He's simply not interested and doesn't care.

Any pic ?

Originally Posted by E93

For the record, Orlando did not start working at PSA until years after that Wagner was graded. It was the first card PSA graded.

As for the best unaltered Wagner, I think the PSA 5 (not the Jumbo PSA 5 MC) and three raw Wagners in private hands are the top candidates. The Jumbo would probably rank around #5 IMHO. It is a phenomenal card, but there are a few that are slightly better in my opinion, mostly due to not having the angle cut and top of the the adjoining card on the sheet showing.
JimB

It is verry cool that 3 great condition Wagner is still Raw in private collection

Any pic of these 3 Raw Wagner ?

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by E93

For the record, Orlando did not start working at PSA until years after that Wagner was graded. It was the first card PSA graded.

Exactly, Joe is what in his late 30's? That puts him around 16-17 years old when the card was graded. He was still popping pimples and learning how to drive when that decision was being made. A little too much emphasis on Orlando when it comes to PSA's role in the card, lol.

[barrysloate]

Nelson- I believe he has posted it before. Also, it is pictured in an archive of T206 Wagners that I of course have no idea how to find.

[ruth-gehrig]

Is it known who exactly was in the room when the card was graded? Was Mastro there??

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Nelson- I believe he has posted it before. Also, it is pictured in an archive of T206 Wagners that I of course have no idea how to find.

This is the image Barry's referring to: