Returned cards from trimming scandal showing up on Ebay

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

That's right folks you can buy these altered, outed cards at an even HIGHER price than you would've paid for them at this time last year and they're still altered and still in PSA numeric holders. I know, I know you can't wait to get your hands on these.

Maybe this is why they should've gone back to PSA and not the seller!

Blowout link with the cert #'s

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614

Ebay items with the same cert #'s

https://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Nap-La...AOSwo79f%7E6dL

https://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Walter...AOSwr2Bf%7E6aO

Sharing someone else's discovery, can't take credit for spotting this.

[ullmandds]

unreal

[shagrotn77]

It really was all just a big smokescreen. I wonder if the FBI agents who were supposedly at the Natty a couple years ago were paid actors.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

That's right folks you can buy these altered, outed cards at an even HIGHER price than you would've paid for them at this time last year and they're still altered and still in PSA numeric holders. I know, I know you can't wait to get your hands on these.

Maybe this is why they should've gone back to PSA and not the seller!

Blowout link with the cert #'s

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614

Ebay items with the same cert #'s

https://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Nap-La...AOSwo79f%7E6dL

https://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Walter...AOSwr2Bf%7E6aO

Sharing someone else's discovery, can't take credit for spotting this.

Yes, sending these cards back to the seller was the worst option.

Sending them back to PSA would only be option #2, because they’d find a way to stand behind the grade, thus limiting their liability (altered or not).

Best option would have been to send them to the FBI as evidence of fraud.

These slime balls always have a way of wiggling off the hook. People need to start boycotting these sellers.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I guess when we're told the seller is cooperating with the FBI I foolishly figure that the fraudulent cards aren't just being resold on the QT.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

It really was all just a big smokescreen. I wonder if the FBI agents who were supposedly at the Natty a couple years ago were paid actors.

Covid hit at the perfect time for card doctors, TPAs and corrupt dealers. It likely put the FBI investigation on a back burner, while enabling the acceleration of prices for this trash.

[Gorditadogg]

So does Probstein know?

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[Flintboy]

Unfortunately I don’t think he really cares.....Why should he? Not like a lot has been done in the hobby to stop this. Card after card being doctored and what happens? There’s an even bigger wait to get a card graded.

[Casey2296]

The most valuable card to me is one that shows very clearly there is no possible signs of trimming. Signs of edge wear on a 100+ year old card with wide borders carries a premium over skinny perfect borders.

[Seven]

Terrible. I know how well documented this stuff has been on blowout, but I just don't understand how ebay, just doesn't care.

[Andrew1975]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

The most valuable card to me is one that shows very clearly there is no possible signs of trimming. Signs of edge wear on a 100+ year old card with wide borders carries a premium over skinny perfect borders.

I agree 100%...

[hcv123]

Is that while it may be crystal clear to us and folks at blowout, I presume from a legal standpoint at best these cards are "alleged to have been altered", but not found so in a legal sense.

While I am no fan of nor choose to do business with Probstein or PWCC for reasons clearly called out in multiple threads here, there are clearly many who choose to ignore the facts and poor service in pursuit of stuff.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

The most valuable card to me is one that shows very clearly there is no possible signs of trimming. Signs of edge wear on a 100+ year old card with wide borders carries a premium over skinny perfect borders.

I kind of took that to heart...

[shagrotn77]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Covid hit at the perfect time for card doctors, TPAs and corrupt dealers. It likely put the FBI investigation on a back burner, while enabling the acceleration of prices for this trash.

I understand while some might think along these lines, but the FBI wasn't tasked with trying to cure or treat Covid. If there ever was an investigation, it could have continued. I never saw any change in the way the alleged offenders operated, so I have a hard time believing there was ever any heat on them at all.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Leon

I kind of took that to heart...

Now that's how they should look, nice cards Leon.

[Andrew1975]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

I understand while some might think along these lines, but the FBI wasn't tasked with trying to cure or treat Covid. If there ever was an investigation, it could have continued. I never saw any change in the way the alleged offenders operated, so I have a hard time believing there was ever any heat on them at all.

Federal grand juries have essentially been shut down for 8+ months. I'm quite sure that the very limited time/space the feds have to put in witnesses isn't being used for a baseball card/fraud investigation. If they plan to indict anyone they will probably need to have numerous witnesses testify in GJ... I am hopeful that is the case.

[honus94566]

Joke's on all of you that are willing to pay 10x the price for the same card, just because it comes in a "PSA 8" holder instead of "PSA 2".

Suckers

[Rhotchkiss]

Scott, you are saying the Lajoie and wajo have been called out as altered and then link the massive blowout thread. Which posts in that zillion-post thread contains the analysis of Lajoie and Wajo?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Seven

Terrible. I know how well documented this stuff has been on blowout, but I just don't understand how ebay, just doesn't care.

Because they get paid...

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

I understand while some might think along these lines, but the FBI wasn't tasked with trying to cure or treat Covid. If there ever was an investigation, it could have continued. I never saw any change in the way the alleged offenders operated, so I have a hard time believing there was ever any heat on them at all.

I have spoken to enough people in the industry who were directly questioned by the FBI to know this is not the case.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Scott, you are saying the Lajoie and wajo have been called out as altered and then link the massive blowout thread. Which posts in that zillion-post thread contains the analysis of Lajoie and Wajo?

Sorry I couldn't pin point them, but those cert #s are in the BO thread yes.

[Flintboy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I have spoken to enough people in the industry who were directly questioned by the FBI to know this is not the case.

Then they’re doing a knock down job on curtailing the doctoring. It’s arguably worse now then it was a year ago. How much more evidence or dollar amount loss do they need?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Then they’re doing a knock down job on curtailing the doctoring. It’s arguably worse now then it was a year ago. How much more evidence or dollar amount loss do they need?

Yes, it's a huge disappointment, given the glaring and obvious evidence. The shady side of the hobby is making money hand over fist with no apparent repercussions. I don't know the extent that Covid interfered with the FBI investigation, but have to believe it was a "Godsend" to those who were most under the microscope.

[swarmee]

PWCC's lawyer responded back to this thread on a different message board; figured it was worth posting here.

Calvindog
Altered Cards Going Back to Their Owners?
There's a thread on Net 54 claiming that cards which were outed as altered on Blowout were returned to the owners, only to be resold on eBay.

Such a claim suggests that every outed card was immediately seized by either the FBI or the auctioneer who sold the altered card -- and then somehow returned them to their owners, only to be resold at a later time, still in the holders. Of course, this is false. I'll explain this s l o w l y so that everyone understands what occurred:

After the cards were outed, at least in the case of PWCC, attempts to contact the purchaser of the altered cards were made. In many instances contact was made and the owner of the card was given the option to receive a refund in exchange for the return of the card to PWCC. When the refund was requested, the card was returned to PWCC and sent to the FBI where it remains, never to be resold again.

In many instances, owners of outed cards refused the refund as they wanted to keep the cards despite allegations of alteration. It happened a LOT of times. Either the owner didn't believe their card was altered or didn't care. At that point, the FBI did not break down any doors to seize said cards. Sorry. The outed card, therefore, potentially could be resold despite the best efforts of PWCC.

In many instances, contact was made, but the owners no longer owned the outed card. In some instances the new owners could be found and contacted and again offers were made for partial or full refunds in exchange for the return of the card. Sometimes the cards were returned (and sent to the FBI) and in other instances they were not. Again, the FBI did not break down any doors to seize said cards. The outed cards, again, could potentially surface for sale later down the line.

In many other instances, no contact was made at all despite the best efforts of telephone calls, emails, etc. These cards potentially could end up being resold.

So, again, to clear up what was falsely claimed on Net 54: no outed cards were sent back to the owners by the FBI or PWCC. Any cards which resulted in refunds were sent from the owners to PWCC to the FBI. No cards were sent to PSA. If anyone has any questions on this subject, it might make some sense to think before posting or -- gasp -- contact me first with a question. I know, I know, asking questions takes some effort and effort is hard, but at least misinformation will not be spread publicly.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

That is not even remotely what is being suggested. I am stating, not suggesting, that cards that have been returned to the seller are now popping up for sale again. I personally know the previous owner of the Johnson card that was bought and returned. I have never mentioned any company or individual names in this thread other than PSA.

[swarmee]

Well, I'm not sure if he still has a Net54 account, but you could message him. I know there are plenty of cards still circulating, and even FOR SALE IN THE VAULT. So saying that PWCC is not doing it, is kind of BS in the first place. But I figured I'd put his post out there, and then shoot it down.

Why is PWCC still selling any cards submitted by Moser? Surely they have a list of his cert numbers and can check any submission against them?
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=281

I thought Brent was going to create a website with all questionable cards... you know, to help the honest customers of theirs... like they enjoy doing. Maybe it's coming Monday.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To judge Brent's current hobby purity I would need to see a list of his current and recent consignors. I doubt anyone is going to give me such a list.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Well, I'm not sure if he still has a Net54 account, but you could message him. I know there are plenty of cards still circulating, and even FOR SALE IN THE VAULT. So saying that PWCC is not doing it, is kind of BS in the first place. But I figured I'd put his post out there, and then shoot it down.

Why is PWCC still selling any cards submitted by Moser? Surely they have a list of his cert numbers and can check any submission against them?
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=281

I thought Brent was going to create a website with all questionable cards... you know, to help the honest customers of theirs... like they enjoy doing. Maybe it's coming Monday.

The previous owner of the Johnson has messaged him.

[ALBB]

Just awful

[troutbum97]

Q: Doesn't this Speaker look short / trimmed?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T20...59.m1431.l2649

[troutbum97]

Q: This Red Cobb may have been the same "trimmed 5" from a few months ago - or, are my eyes playing tricks on me?

-Brian May

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T20...wAAOSw97BgBgYU

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by troutbum97

Q: Doesn't this Speaker look short / trimmed?

Bottom edge has a weird cut, slopes inward so quite possibly. Back paper loss today would get a 1.5 at most. Way overgraded. Card probably graded over 20 years ago based on the cert number.

Add: As to the Cobb, it's been in that holder for like 15 years, based on cert numbers. The Altered 5 was a Carolina Brights back and had much better centering.

[troutbum97]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Bottom edge has a weird cut, slopes inward so quite possibly. Back paper loss today would get a 1.5 at most. Way overgraded. Card probably graded over 20 years ago based on the cert number.

Add: As to the Cobb, it's been in that holder for like 15 years, based on cert numbers. The Altered 5 was a Carolina Brights back and had much better centering.

Thank you for clarifying.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

I think much more blame needs to be put on the TPG's who have graded altered/trimmed cards. Too bad the TPG's don't take the high road and actively buy back these outed cards as part of their guarantee. We all understand the grading process isn't perfect and humans make mistakes, so why not just admit to the mistakes and make the marketplace more secure by taking these out of circulation?

[2dueces]

Nothing ever happens. Big investigation. Everyone waiting with bated breath for the indictments, arrests and jail time. Everyone be patient they say. The law works slowly. Yeah bunch of BS.
So the results are the doctors laugh and continue to create more trimmed cards. Remember the big T206 auto scandal? Yeah all those forgers are in jail. Yeah right. Time passed. What is it 2-4 years now? Just buy a laser and auto pen and you’re in business. Like I said BS and only ones care are the saps that got took or stuck with the cards.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

Nothing ever happens. Big investigation. Everyone waiting with bated breath for the indictments, arrests and jail time. Everyone be patient they say. The law works slowly. Yeah bunch of BS.
So the results are the doctors laugh and continue to create more trimmed cards. Remember the big T206 auto scandal? Yeah all those forgers are in jail. Yeah right. Time passed. What is it 2-4 years now? Just buy a laser and auto pen and you’re in business. Like I said BS and only ones care are the saps that got took or stuck with the cards.

Ask Mastro, Doug and Theo how their long investigation turned out. It took years but they didn't end up with happy faces. I doubt some of these trimmers and fraudsters end up with happy faces either. The FBI doesn't send 6 or more agents to the National to check out the cards and crappy venue food. (except the food at the Net54 Dinner....believe 3 agents made it there)_

.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by troutbum97

Q: This Red Cobb may have been the same "trimmed 5" from a few months ago - or, are my eyes playing tricks on me?

-Brian May

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T20...wAAOSw97BgBgYU

Short yes, trimmed no.

How it got a 4 with that paper loss is another thing entirely.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by steve B

Short yes, trimmed no.

How it got a 4 with that paper loss is another thing entirely.

Could just be really old grading standards, but it could also be that the card was soaked improperly, got slabbed, then degraded over time.

[Schlesinj]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

I think much more blame needs to be put on the TPG's who have graded altered/trimmed cards. Too bad the TPG's don't take the high road and actively buy back these outed cards as part of their guarantee. We all understand the grading process isn't perfect and humans make mistakes, so why not just admit to the mistakes and make the marketplace more secure by taking these out of circulation?

Not trying to be a cyber stalker, but interesting take given the Jackie posted by Leon.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Schlesinj

Not trying to be a cyber stalker, but interesting take given the Jackie posted by Leon.

[aconte]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To judge Brent's current hobby purity I would need to see a list of his current and recent consignors. I doubt anyone is going to give me such a list.

You have to ask him nicely. He can deal with the card doctors and bad consignors
but you'll need to extend him some courtesy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by aconte

You have to ask him nicely. He can deal with the card doctors and bad consignors
but you'll need to extend him some courtesy.

Maybe I can get my old deal back where he would tell me whether a card was safe or not.

[Prince Hal]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

The most valuable card to me is one that shows very clearly there is no possible signs of trimming. Signs of edge wear on a 100+ year old card with wide borders carries a premium over skinny perfect borders.

I totally agree. I've been buying more and more raw cards that clearly have not been trimmed and enjoying them just as much. Even modern sized cards in a recessed screw down, like the 1962's I've been working on, look as good to me as any slabbed card.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by aconte

You have to ask him nicely. He can deal with the card doctors and bad consignors

but you'll need to extend him some courtesy.

Yep, don't think for one second you can go over there, flash a badge, and make him nervous.

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