T3 Turkey Red Scarcity List

[quinnsryche]

Hello all. Does anyone know if there is a resource for determining which T3's are more scarce than others? Not front back combos, just player scarcity compared to others only.
Thanks in advance!

[Zach Wheat]

Good question. It is not an easy question to answer without considering backs if you are talking about all the front variations.

Your question is complicated by the fact that card fronts are somewhat correlated with the card backs. For instance, card #90 "Doolan" was found with the second series (#77-126) checklist back, but the corrected version "Doolin" is found with the ad back. There were several other cards that were updated...and the second series or updated version with an ad back can be found with team changes on the front or corrected spellings.

I am not positive, but I think #114 Bob Rhoades is considered the most scarce. Perhaps one of the T3 collectors can chime in.

[PolarBear]

Are all 100 subjects found with the ad back?

[Rob D.]

You might find this site useful (if you haven't already visited):

http://www.t3turkeyred.com/

[FrankWakefield]

As I understand it, someone who mailed in coupons could request a particular card. So the popular stars of the day would have been requested more often. Today, some of those guys are HOFers, so the price for them reflects the HOF status, and not the scarcity. Cards that don't name a player, such as "Out at Third" would have been requested less often than a name player, and would likely be less plentiful, but also less in demand. The second series of cards are slightly less plentiful that the first. And, the cards that mention two teams for a player are the scarcer of those cards for that player, I think. The T9 boxers are encountered less often than the T3 baseball players, even though they're realistically of the same bunch. RobD has targeted you in on a good site for T3s.

Finally, I agree with "Zach Wheat" up there, the Rhoades card, #114, may well be the most difficult card to locate. Still, cards like Mathewson depict a HOFer and are so attractive, that currently the price for a Mathewson exceeds the price you'd pay for a Rhoades, if you can find one for sale.

[Jay Wolt]

When I was working on the set, Kitty Bransfield was a very tough card

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

Are all 100 subjects found with the ad back?

Don, I think only 49 players in the second series have the Turkey Red ad back; Rhoades #114 is found with the checklist back and is presumably more scarce for this reason. All checklist backs can be found w/ ad.

Please note the series 1 discussion about ads refers to the language at the bottom of the checklist or "ad" for coupon redemption. Series 1 cards can be found with and w/o this ad; cards without this language are referred to as "No Ad" backs; series 2 discussion regarding ads generally refers to the Turkey Red ad back. All series 2 cards with a checklist back have the ad for coupon redemption at the bottom - and therefore to answer your question, all cards can be found with the ad. Note: there are no series 2 "No Ad" back cards.

[FrankWakefield]

"A survey was taken in 1981. Eleven collectors of T3's were polled. Combined, they owned 725 T3's and 76 T9's. The following observations were made... Of the 11 collectors polled only two had card #114, Rhoades. There were at least six of all other players."

Lew Lipset - The Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, Volume 3.


Those collectors were collecting toward completing a set, searching for one of each, not accumulating duplicates.


I'm not saying that the Rhoades card is scarce. It is nowhere near T206's Wagner, Plank, Magie, or the Polar Bear cards of Demmitt and O'Hara; nowhere near as tough as E90-1's Mitchell; nor T207's Lowdermilk; nor T210's Jackson or Stengel.

Mr. Lipset notes that the series 2 backs that omit the premium offer and mailing address are much more difficult to locate than the other backs, but that (at the time of his printing) there is only a small price premium. And, Mr. Lipset says "There are no great rarities in the T3 series... "

Having said all of that, tracking down a T3 Rhoades is a chore. I was after one 14 years before I almost got one, a west coast dealer sold it out from under me, knowing that it was on my short want list he had, he said he just didn't bother to check the list. 4 more years and I snagged one.

I think if we surveyed all board members we'd find that there are more of us that don't have a T3 Rhoades than there are that do. And I think our population for them would not reflect the reality of what's out there. I have about 4 T3's. Rhoades is the only one I'd sought for years, the others I gathered in because of the opportunity at the moment. That would be the deal for several of us here. If we surveyed all of our T206 holdings, the folks that collect a team, or HOFers, or a particular HOFer would skew our survey so that it didn't reflect the proportions of all cards. I'll dig around and see if I can find a scan of mine, or dig down to the card itself and scan it. In the meantime, for those who say that finding a Rhoades card isn't so difficult, I look forward to seeing theirs. I think Mr. Lipset had it about right...

[Bicem]

I stand by my statement.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Having said all of that, tracking down a T3 Rhoades is a chore. I was after one 14 years before I almost got one...

14 years?! Did you try looking?

How many have sold publicly in the past five years? 4 or 5? To me, that is a lot, regardless if board members have them to post or not.

[majordanby]

the rhoades is typically perceived as a difficult card to attain. However, it has been up for sale quite a bit in recent years. This is likely correlated with the increased demand and popularity of the set. I actually purchased a Rhoades at what i thought was a very good price a few years back. I sold it due to financial reasons for a slight loss.

I've found the bransfield and the kleinow to be tougher to find. The HOF'ers, specifically Speaker, Evers, Johnson, Mathewson, Lajoie and Cobb, generally are fairly expensive, even at lower grades. horizontal cards also are relatively expensive, even for non HOF'ers. Whenever i do see a kleinow up for auction, it goes for higher than i expected/want.

i started collecting this set at the unfortunate time it was hot only to see the prices of these cards dampen quite a bit since then. i've been forced to sell quite a few of them, some at a loss, due to financial constraints.

try doing a search on this forum for "turkey scarcity." there are a few posts discussing t3 scarcity, specifically related to backs.

[FrankWakefield]

Still haven't broken him out. I think Mr. Lipset had it about right, no rarities, but he put a premium on Rhoades. I don't doubt a disproportionate number of Rhoades have been graded, and maybe regraded. (I cannot understand why folks let the 3PG folks get by with calling their reports 'Population Reports', when what is reported is the number of times they've graded a certain type of card and not the number of those cards that they've graded.) I anticipate 5 or 6 dozen postings of scans of this common T3...

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by majordanby

the rhoades is typically perceived as a difficult card to attain. However, it has been up for sale quite a bit in recent years. This is likely correlated with the increased demand and popularity of the set. I actually purchased a Rhoades at what i thought was a very good price a few years back. I sold it due to financial reasons for a slight loss.

I've found the bransfield and the kleinow to be tougher to find. The HOF'ers, specifically Speaker, Evers, Johnson, Mathewson, Lajoie and Cobb, generally are fairly expensive, even at lower grades. horizontal cards also are relatively expensive, even for non HOF'ers. Whenever i do see a kleinow up for auction, it goes for higher than i expected/want.

i started collecting this set at the unfortunate time it was hot only to see the prices of these cards dampen quite a bit since then. i've been forced to sell quite a few of them, some at a loss, due to financial constraints.

try doing a search on this forum for "turkey scarcity." there are a few posts discussing t3 scarcity, specifically related to backs.

It may be just semantics regarding Rhoades....certainly it seems as if Rhoades is more difficult than commons. Has anyone had difficulty locating Bransfield or Kelinow? Just curious.

[ethicsprof]

Craig's website mentioned by Rob is top drawer.
do take a look at it.
i,too,love the Turkey Reds but have limited myself---in a type collecting vein--- to the Downey batting with Turkey Red back and the Turkey Red tobacco pack with 1911 overstamp.
now that i've looked at the site again, i'm about to add another one to the
ole type collection.

best,
barry

[Bicem]

Rhoades has actually come up a lot over the past few years, I think his T3 being difficult is somewhat overrated.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Rhoades has actually come up a lot over the past few years, I think his T3 being difficult is somewhat overrated.

I agree.