Yikes! From 88 to Auth

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-11-T206-Ty-...item2ea9602d7c

[HRBAKER]

A cautionary tale. Why would you break out an 88? Or, what are the chances that most pw 88s/8/9 may have the same thing happen upon reexamination? Ah, the grading game.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It is only one example, but a huge one, of an apparent SGC mistake. Let those who delight in PSA's mistakes take notice.

[rc4157]

Jeff, that was my first thought as well but if the collector has all PSA then that's got to be what he was going after, his ranking in PSA.

Sounds crazy to many but I guess makes perfect sense to others. It looked nice in the original SGC to me.

What a shame. That card is a Beauty. Wish they would cross that Wagner

[Leon]

Most definitely SGC could make a mistake just as any other TPG can. That being said how do we know it wasn't tampered with when it was broken out?

I feel a large percentage (don't know the number exactly) of NM-MT and above pre-war cards are tainted. Unless there is great provenance, or some reason to own one, I usually shy away from high grade. Not always, but usually.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Tampering with a $15,000 card that already had graded seems quite a gamble. More likely it was no good to begin with.

[HRBAKER]

I feel a large percentage (don't know the number exactly) of NM-MT and above pre-war cards are tainted.

My point exactly.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Tampering with a $15,000 card that already had graded seems quite a gamble. More likely it was no good to begin with.

I agree but there is always that chance of someone thinking they could go from an 8 to a 9....then the 10k-15k becomes 30k-50k.....A gamble yes, but I have seen worse...

[barrysloate]

That card has really big borders and looks fine. I have to agree that the risk buying high grade cards, even graded ones, is great.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

That card has really big borders and looks fine. I have to agree that the risk buying high grade cards, even graded ones, is great.

I agree, it has to measure out, there is thousands of graded T206 with less border than that, wtf ?

[autograf]

There must be something with the border of one or more sides that leads them to believe it's been trimmed. I understand having all your cards be of a single TPG company but geez.....why break something like that out when there are absolutely no guarantees. Just seems kinda crazy. If he paid $15K for it, how much will it bring now? $1500-$2000 just based on the 'look'. It'll be interesting to see what it brings. Cautionary tale for the resubmit game......

[barrysloate]

Anybody who has a beautiful SGC 88- and that card is gorgeous- and cracks it out to resubmit, deserves what he got.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Anybody who has a beautiful SGC 88- and that card is gorgeous- and cracks it out to resubmit, deserves what he got.

No doubt.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Anybody who has a beautiful SGC 88- and that card is gorgeous- and cracks it out to resubmit, deserves what he got.

Once again, conclusions drawn and assumptions made without knowledge of all the facts.

Ah, the beauty of Net54.

[barrysloate]

Never let facts get in the way of a good story.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Once again, conclusions drawn and assumptions made without knowledge of all the facts.

Ah, the beauty of Net54.

Fill us in, what are all the facts. In the description the seller states "This card was originally purchased in an SGC 88 holder (see scan below) and was cracked out for grading by PSA a while back by an unfortunate collector."

It would be interesting to know the whole story.

[Rob D.]

I don't know all of the facts, Mike, which is why I would not assume that the person who cracked it out "deserves to get" anything.

Collectors on this board post all of the time how they like to have all of their cards slabbed by one company. Quite often the company of choice is SGC, so few on the board ever question those decisions. Who knows why the owner of this card did what he did? And even if it was greed in hopes of getting a higher grade, so what? Again, people often post on the board about resubmitting cards in hopes of getting a half-point bump.

I can only imagine the reaction to this story if the card had started in a PSA 8 slab and was submitted to SGC, which deemed it trimmed. There would be the usual outcries demanding that "we" have to "hold PSA responsible" for such sloppy work. This post already would have 100-plus posts by people jumping on PSA with both feet.

But because it was SGC that originally missed the trim, that's conveniently overlooked, and it's the owner of the card who somehow is at fault and is deserving of the monetary misfortune he experienced.

[bigfish]

SGC made a mistake and corrected it. What seems to be the issue here?

[Peter_Spaeth]

SGC = Teflon.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bigfish

SGC made a mistake and corrected it. What seems to be the issue here?

They slabbed a trimmed card is the issue, and had the owner not cracked it out, and PSA discovered the truth, it would be in some auction fetching a world record price.

[ChiefBenderForever]

I can see how one side is a little slanted but couldn't that be a factory cut ? Is it even trimmed ? And again, it has to measure out. Why wouldn't they resubmit, and what mistake was made, it doesn't looked trimmed ?

[bigfish]

I assume the owner took a gamble taking a card out of an 88 holder? Not a bright move. That was their mistake. They should eat it. They also could have done something to the card prior to re submitting it to psa. It is now in an authentic holder where it belongs. Not sure where your beef is?

Originally Posted by Rob D.

I don't know all of the facts, Mike, which is why I would not assume that the person who cracked it out "deserves to get" anything.

Collectors on this board post all of the time how they like to have all of their cards slabbed by one company. Quite often the company of choice is SGC, so few on the board ever question those decisions. Who knows why the owner of this card did what he did? And even if it was greed in hopes of getting a higher grade, so what? Again, people often post on the board about resubmitting cards in hopes of getting a half-point bump.

I can only imagine the reaction to this story if the card had started in a PSA 8 slab and was submitted to SGC, which deemed it trimmed. There would be the usual outcries demanding that "we" have to "hold PSA responsible" for such sloppy work. This post already would have 100-plus posts by people jumping on PSA with both feet.

But because it was SGC that originally missed the trim, that's conveniently overlooked, and it's the owner of the card who somehow is at fault and is deserving of the monetary misfortune he experienced.

I agree to some point but the fact is that there are FAR more PSA mess ups than SGC. Maybe this is the reason. Now if it was in a GAI holder they (most) would be saying "should have seen it coming". GAI wasn't that bad, just not that good

[Peter_Spaeth]

I cannot explain it any better than I already did. They graded a major card an 8 that should not have been graded. If you don't think that is a significant mistake, I don't know how to respond.

[Abravefan11]

I know with SGC when a card is submitted for crossover in another companies holder and fails to meet the minimum grade declared by the customer, it will be returned as it was sent in.

Many collectors though feel that submitting a card in a holder effects the graders ability to look at the card objectively and crack them out and submit them raw.

I don't know the motives of this particular person, but I know I personally wouldn't risk sending it in raw. Even if it drops one grade it's a five figure loss.

And one other note: If this card was cracked out, isn't it possible it was trimmed even in the slightest before being resubmitted to PSA?

[bigfish]

Take a look at the 33 Lajoie in a PSA 6 holder that was in a major auction a few months back. Looked like my cat took a bite out of the back of the card. That is a real issue. There are mistakes made all the time. It was a mistake and was corrected.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Honestly? I would like a grading service where the owner was not a buyer and seller of cards, so I didn't even have to speculate about the possibilities when situations like this arise. And to be clear that is all I am doing, speculating. EDIT TO ADD To be clear I have seen numerous PSA cards I don't like the looks of.

[ChiefBenderForever]

It looks good to me ! I'm gonna buy it, wait a few months, resubmit and get a 9.5 and make a 150,000 profit !

[bigfish]

I agree with you on the last post. I just do not think this example is the best one to make a point. Happy Holidays!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

You too!

[Leon]

I wouldn't want what I said above to be misconstrued as me thinking it wasn't probably a mistake on SGC's part. It probably was but I don't know all of the facts. If they deemed it trimmed the second time maybe they missed it the first time.....and since it was cracked....so be it....the grading game continues....For the record I don't see me ever cracking an 8....of PSA or SGC or Beckett....To me that is just asking for trouble...and at the same time if someone owns the card they can do what they want with it...

[BobbyVCP]

I am sure someone is going to buy it and crack it out and it will be in a PSA 8 holder one day.

[Al C.risafulli]

Oh, this thread again?

-Al

[E93]

Originally Posted by bigfish

SGC made a mistake and corrected it. What seems to be the issue here?

About $13,000 in value is the issue!

Since the guy cracked the card and there was no chain of custody to verify that no tampering was done with the card, SGC really can't be held responsible. But if they believe that they made a mistake the first time around and then corrected their own mistake (and not that the card was tampered with in the interim), then I think they morally have a responsibility to make restitution. Those are big IFs since they obviously can't remember the details of every card they have graded and honestly don't know what, if anything happened when the card was out of their holder. I am speaking more theoretically here than about what will or ought to happen in actuality.
JimB

[Wesley]

Here is the description on ebay:

"So this is a sad story. This card was originally purchased in an SGC 88 holder (see scan below) and was cracked out for grading by PSA a while back by an unfortunate collector. PSA determined the card was trimmed, and SGC agreed upon re-evaluation. While SGC admitted they'd made a serious error, the card had already been removed from their holder. In the end, SGC has regraded the card as Authentic due to the suspected trimming."



So SGC acknowledge that it had incorrectly graded this card the first time. If that is the case, will SGC buy the card back under it's buyback policy? Or is the owner out of luck since he removed the card from the slab?

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

Oh, this thread again?

-Al

Al,

Has this T206 Cobb card been discussed previously?

Wes

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by Wesley

Or is the owner out of luck since he removed the card from the slab?

Yes - you can bet that is it. And there's good reason for a condition like that on your guarantee. SGC is responsible for the contents of that holder matching their representation while it remains sealed in the holder and not tampered with.

This guy busted it out (could easily have damaged it then), sent it in the mail (could easily have damaged), had PSA guys paw it over (could easily have damaged it)...and who knows what the owner did while the card was busted out? What company on earth would continue to guarantee anything under those conditions? None.

The guy fully got what he deserved. The only reason he busted it out was to shoot for an 8.5 or 9. Otherwise he would have sent it in SGC slabbed. PSA would have refused to cross for evidence of trimming and sent it back in the SGC slab. On re-evaluation if SGC agreed, their guarantee would absolutely have applied.

Sometimes greed ain't so good...is that not clear yet after 2008/2009?

Cheers,
Blair

[Ladder7]

I haven't seen a beating like this since I had a banana in my pocket and someone turned the monkey loose.

If they gave awards to Monday morning quarterbacks, I'd win the Heisman... But, wouldn't it be nice to see this thing in the original slab?

Shame on the gambler for not taking a few minutes to ask, "Hey guys, think this would get a bump?" Though Im sure he knows this.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Bosox Blair

Yes - you can bet that is it. And there's good reason for a condition like that on your guarantee. SGC is responsible for the contents of that holder matching their representation while it remains sealed in the holder and not tampered with.

This guy busted it out (could easily have damaged it then), sent it in the mail (could easily have damaged), had PSA guys paw it over (could easily have damaged it)...and who knows what the owner did while the card was busted out? What company on earth would continue to guarantee anything under those conditions? None.

The guy fully got what he deserved. The only reason he busted it out was to shoot for an 8.5 or 9. Otherwise he would have sent it in SGC slabbed. PSA would have refused to cross for evidence of trimming and sent it back in the SGC slab. On re-evaluation if SGC agreed, their guarantee would absolutely have applied.

I think Blair summed it up well. Plus SGC could not admit a mistake after all those handling processes after it was cracked out. That's the seller's own words.

[FrankWakefield]

I don't think what I'm about to say will alter anyone's thinking on this matter... we, especially me, are all pretty well set in our ways.

But what are you guys saying???? The card is the card, it hasn't changed, it is the same card. If it was wrongly in an 88 holder wouldn't you all agree (no) that it should be broken out and resubmitted. To leave it in a holder it doesn't deserve, isn't that wrongful, misleading, and all of that other stuff I hear about?? Are you guys really saying it should have been left in a holder that would potentially mislead a possible buyer who was only looking at the slab number and not the card??

Seems to me that if the card was inaccurately graded before, and now is accurately graded, you guys should all be lauding that. For me, I think breaking him out of the 88 was a good start, and a good place to stop, instead of wasting money on regrading. And if the card had not been graded in the first place, then all would be well...

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I agree with Frank insofar as this particular card goes, it is fortunate this happened so a trimmed card is not on the market in an 88 holder. The real issue of course is how many similar mistakes have been made by both grading services. One shudders to think what would happen if one cracked out all the high dollar value 8s and 9s and resubmitted them.

[HRBAKER]

There is a very good chance (IMO) that any card that old graded that high has been played with. So if you want to play the resubmit game regardless of your motives (I want it for my registry set, I have all my cards in PSA holders, whatever) IMO you are the one taking a huge gamble just like you did when you bought the 88 to start with. I am assuming the submitter for one reason or another decided that he stood a better chance of it crossing or bumping if it was cracked out, when this hapened the guarantee of any sort was relenquished.

Of course it could be the case that good old-fashioned greed was the reason as well. Don't know but there wouldn't be anything wrong with that either.

And Frank your question gets to the real essence of the situation, what is the most important thing; what the card really is or what the holder says it is.

[buymycards]

I agree with Jeff. It is difficult for me to believe that ANY T206 was cut in the factory, inserted into a pack, shipped to a store, purchased by the customer, removed from the cigarettes, and still survived all of these years with 4 razor sharp corners.

Happy Turkey Day!

Rick

[Rob D.]

If a card is a card, then why do collectors who disdain graded cards and the companies that grade them often have their raw cards slabbed -- or ask an auction company to have them slabbed -- before selling them?

I mean, golly gosh darn, the card's still the same card, graded or raw. Right, fellas?

[Peter_Spaeth]

And the winner of today's rhetorical question award is.....

[FrankWakefield]

Because, Rob, as you already know, when someone's selling a card, the seller is seeking money, not the card. And a graded card might sell to either a card collector, or a collector of graded cards; while an ungraded card would be attractive to fewer potential buyers.

I understand why a seller might get a card graded. That, at least, makes some sense.

[3-2-count]

First off I think it's pretty shitty for anyone to say, "the submitter got what he had coming". C'mon guys!!! And as far as the card in question goes, whether it's good, bad, etc, I personally would have never cracked a card like that for re-submission to both Psa & Sgc. It should have been simply reviewed in it's current holder and lived with whatever decision was made. Once the card was cracked any guarantee that Sgc has in place for re-inbursment on a card wrongfully graded was out the window.
Just a bad decision that was made. Nothing more, nothing less.

[martindl]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I don't think what I'm about to say will alter anyone's thinking on this matter... we, especially me, are all pretty well set in our ways.

But what are you guys saying???? The card is the card, it hasn't changed, it is the same card. If it was wrongly in an 88 holder wouldn't you all agree (no) that it should be broken out and resubmitted. To leave it in a holder it doesn't deserve, isn't that wrongful, misleading, and all of that other stuff I hear about?? Are you guys really saying it should have been left in a holder that would potentially mislead a possible buyer who was only looking at the slab number and not the card??

Seems to me that if the card was inaccurately graded before, and now is accurately graded, you guys should all be lauding that. For me, I think breaking him out of the 88 was a good start, and a good place to stop, instead of wasting money on regrading. And if the card had not been graded in the first place, then all would be well...

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

I tried three times yesterday to write out my thoughts on this and could never get happy with the results, so just gave up. Thank you Frank for managing to post exactly what I was trying to say, but couldn't.

There is no "sad story" here and there is no "what a shame", save perhaps for the fellow that purchased the card at 88 for high dollars and now finds he's out some money. Its a sad story for him, but for everyone else, its not.

This is a good thing surely. A seemingly bogus card is now rightfully graded as Authentic.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by martindl

I tried three times yesterday to write out my thoughts on this and could never get happy with the results, so just gave up. Thank you Frank for managing to post exactly what I was trying to say, but couldn't.

Well, I guess one man's literacy is another's hypocrisy.