1949 Page's Pittsburgh Milk Co- new set

[Leon]

I am going to use one of my slightly off topic "gimmes" to show a new set of cards found at the National. Actually one of our board members had them but I doubt seriously if I would have ever seen them had I not gone to the show. Many things come out there that don't normally come out otherwise. I know I brought several cards that were not shown anywhere else, and sold a few of them. It's part of the experience. I have to say my whole National was made with these acquisitions. I collect cards that are pre-1950 so these are just under the timeline. In speaking with John Rumeriz (an old school collector who has the 1st table at every national) about them he said he has had one of these for years and years but always thought they were just an errant hand stamp done at a much later time. I am going to send him a scan of the redemption card so he can display it with his card. He said he was excited to see these, especially the header card. Anyone that knows John knows that anything (cards)that gets him excited is pretty unusual. There were 8 cards in the group (plus the redemption card) with 4 being boxers and 4 being baseball players. Thanks again to the board member for letting me buy these. The back of the redemption card is blank. best regards

[Matt]

Boy Leon - when you go OT you go WAY OT.
Interesting issue!

[tedzan]

I probably sound like a "kiljoy"......but, these cards are simply recycled 1947 cards originally included in Homogenized Bond Bread loafs.
After Bond Bread stopped inserting these cards in their bread packages in 1948, Page's Milk Co. took over these cards, stamped them,
and made them available as premiums with their milk products.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

You have to spell "killjoy" correctly to sound like one

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I probably sound like a "kiljoy"......but, these cards are simply recycled 1947 cards originally included in Homogenized Bond Bread loafs.
After Bond Bread stopped inserting these cards in their bread packages in 1948, Page's Milk Co. took over these cards, stamped them,
and made them available as premiums with their milk products.


TED Z

Ted, with all due respect I know you are very experienced on these but do you really think Homogenized Bread physically mfg'd these cards? I knew they were a D305 type card immediately. I also would respectfully dispute your timeline unless you have evidence. Personally I think these were probably put out in multiple years, probably '48 and '49. Hey, I knew they were recycled but so were many of the other overprint sets....To me they are a new set of cards. BTW, have you seen others of these?

[Rich Klein]

Was exactly the same as Teddy Z's

Rich

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Was exactly the same as Teddy Z's

Rich

Anyone with a modicum of hobby intelligence knows these are similar to Bond Bread cards. A T206 Honus Wagner is worth a lot of money too....

[tedzan]

As you know, I collected the 1947 Bond Bread cards as a kid. They were first available in 1947.
Bond Bread continued to include them in their bread loafs into 1948.

It has not been established where these cards were printed; but, I've always felt that they were
produced by the Harry M. Stevens Co. (NYC). As this company produced all the Team and World
Series yearbooks from the 1920's to 1960's and also printed the Team individual photos available
at the various ballparks in 1946 to 1951. The pictures on the 1947 Bond Bread cards are identical
to the pictures in these publications.

Incidently, several years ago I saw a Page's Milk boxing card (but don't recall who).

TED Z

[Rich Klein]

But in re-reading your post -- my instincts run more towards the NJ based original collector. Think about this -- 4 Baseball Players and 4 Boxers. HMMMM, didn't the original Bond Bread in 47 have a bunch of boxers in them.

I'm not saying these are bad or anything -- just saying --- it's just a different way of issuing that 1947 issue

Regards
Rich

[Bob Lemke]

Nice purchase, Leon, and thanks for sharing with the hobby.

Like many, many other "generic" sets that were appropriated by local/regional advertisers for promotional purposes (M101-4/5, W575-1, W514, 1959 Exhibits, etc.), this qualifies as a "new" set, at least in my way of thinking.

With your permission, I'll pick up your scans and data for the 2011 Standard Catalog. The presence of the promo card explaining the promotion clearly gives the issue legitimacy, but raises the question . . . which of the 48 cards was short-printed to avoid giving away bicycles?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

As you know, I collected the 1947 Bond Bread cards as a kid. They were first available in 1947.
Bond Bread continued to include them in their bread loafs into 1948.

It has never established where these cards were printed......but, I've always felt that they were
produced by the Harry M. Stevens Co. (NYC). As this company produced all the Team and World
Series yearbooks from the 1920's to 1960's and also printed the Team individual photos available
at the various ballparks in 1946 to 1951. The pictures on the 1947 Bond Bread cards are identical
to the pictures in these publications.

Incidently, several years ago I saw a Page's Milk boxing card (don't recall who).

TED Z

Thanks again Ted. So in fact they weren't really Bond Bread cards until Bond Bread got a hold of them. That is why I said, since these probably went from the Harry M Stevens Co (I didn't know that) to Pages Milk, I don't consider them Bond Bread cards. It certainly is debatable. This is the kind of stuff I find most interesting about collecting. It really keeps me going.

Rich- John R is no slouch but I agree, I will take Ole Teddy's info on these and run with it.

thanks guys.....still an exciting "find" for me.....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bob Lemke

Nice purchase, Leon, and thanks for sharing with the hobby.

Like many, many other "generic" sets that were appropriated by local/regional advertisers for promotional purposes (M101-4/5, W575-1, W514, 1959 Exhibits, etc.), this qualifies as a "new" set, at least in my way of thinking.

With your permission, I'll pick up your scans and data for the 2011 Standard Catalog. The presence of the promo card explaining the promotion clearly gives the issue legitimacy, but raises the question . . . which of the 48 cards was short-printed to avoid giving away bicycles?

Hey Bob
You know I will be more than happy to share everything I can about this new set with you. I am one of the open guys that likes to share. If the value goes down because of it, I don't care. I will send you scans of all of the cards in a private email. That way you can have them on file if anyone questions anything. One of the boxers is stamped in black. It makes me wonder if they just ran out of the more brightly colored purple ink or there was some other reason for the change. I have no idea on the "chase" card in the set. Heck, I doubt there are 20 of these cards known in the hobby. However, I am also not naive enough to think these are the only ones. If I had to guess I would say we will find other small groups of them as the hobby matures. kind regards

ps...I think a value of about $5000 each would be warranted (j/k)

[tedzan]

We can continue this debate; however, trust me....these cards were originally designed as premiums specifically for Bond Bread.

Their design date is the Summer of '46......as cards like Joe Gordon show him in a Yankees uniform. Joe was traded to Cleveland
in the Fall of '46.

Subsequently (sometime in 1948), these cards were available as premiums for other products.

TED Z

[slidekellyslide]

I don't think anyone disputes that Ted. Leon is simply posting about a "new" type card. Clearly the ad card is pretty solid proof that someone didn't just stamp up a few cards. It's a new set find IMO.

[Rich Klein]

Rich- John R is no slouch but I agree, I will take Ole Teddy's info on these and run with it.

And Leon; it's all good and really cool -- in a way what it is -- tis another overprint back; except it is from the 1940's instead of Old Put

Rich

[tedzan]

The operative words here are...."new set"....but, it really cannot be classified as a "new set" ? ?

I say this because these cards are not only the identical pictures as the 1947 Bond Bread issue;
but, they have the beveled corners specifically designed to conform to the packaging of the Bond
Bread loafs.

This tells us that early in 1949, Page's Milk Co. acquired the EXACT cards from the Bond Bread
issue (unknown how or why) and used them for their purposes....therefore, I cannot agree with
you that it is a "new set".

If these cards were SQUARE cornered, then I would perhaps agree that these cards were speci-
fically meant as Page's Milk premiums.

TED Z

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I don't think anyone disputes that Ted. Leon is simply posting about a "new" type card. Clearly the ad card is pretty solid proof that someone didn't just stamp up a few cards. It's a new set find IMO.

Thanks Dan. That is exactly my point. These very well could have been made to be Bond Bread cards and I don't think we will ever know for positive if that was the intention OR if they were made to be distributed to other companies like Page Milk. This sort of reminds me of Sporting News M101s (4/5) and the myriad backs they have.

Ted- until you can show me something from the company that produced the cards, and that something says "these cards were made only to be distributed with Bond Bread" then I don't think we can say definitively that they were solely made for 1 product (though they could have been). I do trust you know as much as anyone about these. For now I consider it a new set that uses cards similiar to Bond Bread cards. Hey, at least they aren't the square cornered ones. That would really make an interesting story, though one that might not be as believable.

[dstudeba]

Hi Leon,

You wouldn't have needed to go to the National for those, you had dibs on the cards even if you don't remember. I am glad you enjoy them.

I must also congratulate you on getting SGC to acknowledge them. When I submitted them they said that they didn't have enough to go on to slab them. I am glad you convinced them to do the right thing.

Enjoy the weekend,

Dan

[Leon]

Thanks....I do appreciate it. With SGC sometimes you just have to make your case. This was really a no brainer since the redemption card was there. I asked for all SGC 98's but they said no.

Thanks for the overprinted D311 too.....very cool card. And lastly but certainly not least, it was great meeting you in person. For some reason I thought you would be a bit older. We must have exchanged a hundred emails and to finally put a face with the virtual name was another hightlight for me. I enjoy the camaraderie in the hobby almost as much as the cards. You had a nice table partner too!! Hopefully we can meet in MD next year...take care

[JeremyW]

I would guess it's safe to say the Holmes card wasn't the chase card. Ted's point about the rounded corners for distribution in the bread loaves is also interesting, as I can see no reason for the rounded corners when distributed with milk.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The operative words here are...."new set"....but, it really cannot be classified as a "new set" ? ?

I say this because these cards are not only the identical pictures as the 1947 Bond Bread issue;
but, they have the beveled corners specifically designed to conform to the packaging of the Bond
Bread loafs.

This tells us that early in 1949, Page's Milk Co. acquired the EXACT cards from the Bond Bread
issue (unknown how or why) and used them for their purposes....therefore, I cannot agree with
you that it is a "new set".

If these cards were SQUARE cornered, then I would perhaps agree that these cards were speci-
fically meant as Page's Milk premiums.

TED Z

We can certainly agree to disagree on this. Please show me where Bond Bread sent these to Page Milk. I think it more likely that Page Milk got the phone number of the producer of the cards and asked them to send them some. I can hear it now

"Hey Joe, send 2 boxes of those cards to this address instead of the regular address"....... Just my theory

...and that is all we have are theories. I like your theory but I like mine too.....It's a new set to me...that's my story and I am sticking to it

edited to add that I obviously agree with Ted that it is not a new set, physically.

[bh3443]

The Tommy Holmes is a truly rare card and a nice card of one of my Dad's heroes from that generation. 'm glad you found something so nice and thanks for sharing them with us.
Regards,
Bill

[tedzan]

The ROUNDED cornered cards shown here are from my original set of 44 cards that I collected as a kid in 1947 (into 1948).
As I've said before, these Bond Bread cards are my very first BB cards; therefore, I have very fond memories of them.




Note the Tommy Holmes card, it is identical to the Page's Milk card you have. It is my understanding that all 48 cards that
were offered by Page's Milk are identical to the 1947 Bond Bread issue.

Also, Joe Gordon card with the Yankees logo on his uniform that denotes that the Bond Bread set was designed in 1946.

Most important for you to note here is the 2-card examples of Larry Jansen and Vern Stephens. From the printer these
cards were shipped to the Bond Bread factory as SQUARE cornered cards. A die-cut machine at the Bond Bread factory
beveled the corners in order to conform to their bread packaging.

The point I am getting at here, is that the Page Milk cards were acquired directly from the Bond Bread facility.


TED Z

[Rob D.]

It's always exciting when a new set is discovered.

Thanks for posting your pickup, Leon.

[tedzan]

I think Jeremy W's comment succinctly sums my argument......that the Page's Milk cards were not acquired from the
printer of the Bond Bread cards. But, were perhaps acquired directly from the Bond Bread factory........

"Ted's point about the rounded corners for distribution in the bread loaves is also interesting, as I can see no reason
for the rounded corners when distributed with milk."


If you dial back in the archives, one of my threads on the Bond Bread cards focuses on the 1947 ROUND cards vs the
subsequent SQUARE cards issues.

Furthermore, this would be a more interesting debate, if we could find out some thing about Page's Pittsburgh Milk Co.

TED Z

[barrysloate]

Is it possible that when Bond Bread was finished with their promotion, they had a surplus of unused cards which they subsequently sold to Page's Pittsburgh Milk Company?

[tedzan]

Your suggestion here sounds very plausible; and, is most likely what occurred.

The Page's Milk cards are simply re-cycled Bond Bread cards.....it's the only logical
explanation why they have ROUNDED corners.


TED Z

[Leon]

Ted- As I had stated before if you know specific information (which you susbsequently provided) about the round corners ONLY being done at the Bond Bread factory then I obviously concede your point that they were sent from the Bond Bread factory to Pages Milk Company. Now, that being said I can still see a reasonable debate in making these their own set since on the header card it actually states "Give complete set to your milkman or grocer and he will do the rest. (*Photos must have the stamp of the Page Milk Company).

So it looks like we have set within a set. But I think at this point it's semantics and I wasn't trying to only play word games. I googled Page's Milk and didn't find a whole lot. I found one pdf file where they were building 3 storage buildings that would each hold 15,000 gallons of ice cream. I think I also found where they had merged with another company. I will keep searching for more on them. Thanks again for the information......

[Rob D.]

If I had 10 cards with the Page's Milk stamp on them, and the rest of the known players' cards I had were blank-backed, I wouldn't consider that a complete set of Page's Milk cards. The header card seems to make it clear that the cards with the Page's Milk stamp are a set unto their own.

Whether or not one collected these as a kid, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider new evidence that is presented 60-some years later.

Edited to add: The 1950 Num Num set is composed of nothing more than photos from that year's team-issued Cleveland Indians picture pack with a Num Num stamp on the blank reverses. Yet those photos/cards with the Num Num stamps have for years been considered a different set from the photo pack.

[Theoldprofessor]

Was anyone else in this discussion raised in Pittsburgh, in the late 40's? I was, and to tell the truth I never heard of Page's Pittsburgh Milk. It's a strange sort of name to give a product that's associated with good health, sort of like advertising Pittsburgh Soap. But even if it made sense to somebody, I'm wondering if it was ever sold in the Pittsburgh area. We had an Otto Milk Company, but Pittsurgh Milk?! Who would drink it?

The larger question, then, is where were these cards distributed? Admittedly I wasn't that old in 1947 (five, to be exact), but I drank lots of milk, and do not remember any such stuff being sold or advertised in our area.

[tedzan]

BOB M

Very interesting...."Page's Pittsburgh Milk Co." is becoming sort of a mystery. I Googled "Page's Milk",
and went thru pages (pardon the pun) and pages; and, could not find even a hint of Page's Milk.

But (as you noted), I found quite a bit on the "Otto Milk Company" in Pittsburgh.

Very, very strange, indeed.

TED Z

[cincicards]

Found this "Page's Dairy, Susquehanna, PA"

http://www.martinworks.com/sdahs/obusiness.html

[Leon]

Thanks for that tidbit. I have found 3-4 references to Page Milk Company. This one talks about the Ohio and Pittsburgh Milk Company but doesn't say "Page"....

http://books.google.com/books?id=8hQ...=en&ei=cdh1Sv-

however, Patti Page looks like she got her stage name from the company. It was never a question, to me, of if these are legit or not. There is no question at all. Plus with the few cards that have been seen, in very different places, gives them a bit more provenance....

http://www.nndb.com/people/205/000045070/

with another reference midway into the first paragraph here....

http://www.rosemaryclooney.com/latimes091088.html

Yes, very interesting indeed.....regards

[Theoldprofessor]

Is there any chance that Pittsburgh Glass made the bottles for Page Dairy, and that whoever was in charge of renaming the cards misread whatever he/she was given?

On the other hand ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Cream-Milk-Bottl...3286.m20.l1116

I give up.

[tedzan]

Sorry to be-labor this discussion, however......

Susquehanna, PA is a little town (pop. 1700) that is located in the very Northeast corner of Pennsylvania.
While Pittsburgh is 300+ miles Southwest of Susquehanna. I would say these Page's dairy's are unrelated.

Also, I appreciate the trivia regarding Patti Page (one of my favorites when I was a kid); however, I don't
see the connection.... you must of been joking

If we can agree that these Page's Milk Co. cards are simply 1947 Bond Bread cards subsequently stamped....
then, I compare them as being very similar to the E94 cards whose backs were subsequently stamped with
the various George Close products......




Pennsylvania Ted

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sorry to be-labor this discussion, however......

Susquehanna, PA is a little town (pop. 1700) that is located in the very Northeast corner of Pennsylvania.
While Pittsburgh is 300+ miles Southwest of Susquehanna. I would say these Page's dairy's are unrelated.

Also, I appreciate the trivia regarding Patti Page (one of my favorites when I was a kid); however, I don't
see the connection.... you must of been joking

If we can agree that these Page's Milk Co. cards are simply 1947 Bond Bread cards subsequently stamped....
then, I compare them as being very similar to the E94 cards whose backs were subsequently stamped with
the various George Close products......

btw, it does look like there were different Page Milk Companies.......but I don't think it's a coincidence where she got her stage name...here is another quote






Pennsylvania Ted

I guess I could be mistaking? It could just be a coincidence.

"Upon hearing her sing, however, the station manager enlisted Fowler to become the new voice of the Meet Patti Page Show -- a 15 minute segment sponsored by the Page Milk Company."

I guess it could be a joke...ha ha

If you don't think these cards are a set, that is fine. I do.....I still don't consider the t213-1's Coupon cigarettes as T206....so we have that going for us They never will be either....

"Four years later, in 1946, Page joined a traveling big band. The milk company allowed her to keep her stage name, and, for six weeks, the Jimmy Joy Band featuring Patti Page worked its way north to Chicago."

[tedzan]

" TOUCHE ! "..........I consider the 1910 Coupon cigarette cards as T206's....and you think these Page's Milk cards are a set.

I say "TOMAAAATOES" and you say "TOMATOES"......fine !


I think Patti was named after her local Page Milk Dairy in Oklahoma


Pennsylvania Ted

[cincicards]

Not sure what Pages Dairy original distribution range was, but I saw a Pages Dairy milk bottle in a Kentucky antique mall over the weekend.

[DaveW]

Leon,
If you want a companion piece, here's a website where you can buy a bottle
from the Pittsburgh Milk Co (of Pittsburgh Penn.) circa 1950:
http://www.3gsmilkbottles.com/Pittsb...0Milk%20Qt.htm
- Dave

[DaveW]

There's also an auction on ebay right now - the description says:
"You are bidding on a square, 1 quart milk bottle that has the words Page's Pittsburgh Milk Co. 1623 Saw Mill Run Blvd Pittsburgh 10, PA with a waiter serving milk and on the back are the words The Sweetest Milk Ever Sold and shows three birds singing."

This sounds like your company. Just search ebay.

- Dave

[Leon]

Originally Posted by DaveW

There's also an auction on ebay right now - the description says:
"You are bidding on a square, 1 quart milk bottle that has the words Page's Pittsburgh Milk Co. 1623 Saw Mill Run Blvd Pittsburgh 10, PA with a waiter serving milk and on the back are the words The Sweetest Milk Ever Sold and shows three birds singing."

This sounds like your company. Just search ebay.

- Dave

Thanks Dave.....my office has about run out of room for very many more ancillary pieces but I do appreciate the heads up very much.

As I had stated before...it does look like there were quite a few different Page Milk Company companies.....And I do think Patti Page got her stage name from one, although it doesn't look like it was the Pittsburgh one, as I had originally thought. Thanks for all of the info on this.....This is what keeps the hobby fun for me.....regards