General M116 Sporting Life Question

[droid714]

I've looked through old post and couldn't find the answer so I started this thread.

The M116 set was comprised of 24 sheets of 12 cards. According to my math, that comes to a total of 288 cards. Yet there are only 287 cards in the set, not counting variants.

What happened to the missing card?

Any information would be appreciated.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's a good article on the populations question for this issue. I have a few star cards from this set and used to have a large group of commons from one lot.

http://www.prewarcards.com/2016/10/0...ting-life-set/

[sb1]

The two cards of Jimmy Walsh(gray background and white background) were issued in different series(#20 & 22), thus they are considered different cards in the realm of the set and not variations..OR at least they account for the 24 series of 12 total of 288 cards.

There are of course two series of background color changes Blue vs. Pastel, which the images are also cropped slightly different. And there are several team changes, a few only recently discovered. Lastly many, maybe all of the first eighteen series were reissued in 1912 either as part of different numbered series or team series and had the Series of 300 Subjects backs, but were not in the tougher series 19-24 when originally issued in 1910 & 1911.

How's that for muddying the water a bit more.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by sb1

The two cards of Jimmy Walsh(gray background and white background) were issued in different series(#20 & 22), thus they are considered different cards in the realm of the set and not variations..OR at least they account for the 24 series of 12 total of 288 cards.

There are of course two series of background color changes Blue vs. Pastel, which the images are also cropped slightly different. And there are several team changes, a few only recently discovered. Lastly many, maybe all of the first eighteen series were reissued in 1912 either as part of different numbered series or team series and had the Series of 300 Subjects backs, but were not in the tougher series 19-24 when originally issued in 1910 & 1911.

How's that for muddying the water a bit more.

Well done!

[cubman1941]

Appreciate this thread - I found I have a couple variations I never realized as i hadn't checked the backs.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cubman1941

Appreciate this thread - I found I have a couple variations I never realized as i hadn't checked the backs.

I like back collecting as much as front collecting. (from the last collection)

[tycobb]

I like them just a little bit.




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[molenick]

Amazing, Jorge! Are the blue ones scarcer than the pastel ones, or do you just prefer the pastel background?

[tbob]

I thought I had the master set but in the last 10-15 years a few anomalies have popped up which appear to be 1/1 s. I don’t know if a ‘true’ master set will ever exist.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by tbob

I thought I had the master set but in the last 10-15 years a few anomalies have popped up which appear to be 1/1 s. I don’t know if a ‘true’ master set will ever exist.

Bob speaks the truth. About ten years ago I lucked into a team variation (the below Frank Smith) in a group lot auction of 3 on Ebay. I say lucked into because I was bidding on the lot for the other two cards, but when I received the cards I noticed that the team designation on the Smith was not the normal Chicago Americans, but instead Boston Americans. It is still the only one known to exist (it no longer exists in my hands, but I have a scan of it before it was slabbed into submission).

I think this set and the E121 American Caramel Series of 80 are the two more common Prewar sets that are still the most likely to offer new discoveries.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

And here are Nap Rucker cards with image size and coloration (background, face and uniform) variations.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

And below is the link to the thread that discusses the cropping variations, like seen in the Rucker cards in the post above, between the black and blue background versions in some of the Series 3 M116 cards.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=243848


And and double and, below is the link to a sortable (by name, team, series, and rarity) master checklist located on the Old Cardboard website.

https://oldcardboard.com/m/m116/m116SearchIndex.asp


And and andy and, below is an image and link to a lot of a group of 31 of the envelopes these cards came in, from an old Lew Lipset auction. There are 7 in this lot that contained cards from just one team.

http://www.oldjudge.com/archive/2004...adliners/10/#a


m116sportinglifeenvelopesoldjudge.jpg

Brian

[tycobb]

Originally Posted by molenick

Amazing, Jorge! Are the blue ones scarcer than the pastel ones, or do you just prefer the pastel background?

Thanks Michael. From my experience the Blue backgrounds are more scarce. Only 24 players were issued with the blue background.

Anyone know the details / history of the blue backgrounds ?


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[jimq16415]

A couple questions from a novice collector -

Is there any list anywhere of which backs are available for each player?

and

Are any of the backs more scarce than others?

I only have one of these but if other backs are available for that one I'll watch for others.

Thanks for all the information on this site!

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by jimq16415

A couple questions from a novice collector -

Is there any list anywhere of which backs are available for each player?

and

Are any of the backs more scarce than others?

I only have one of these but if other backs are available for that one I'll watch for others.

Thanks for all the information on this site!

Hi Jim, the second link in post # 19 of this thread includes a master checklist for this set, and indicates what backs for each subject are available. What it doesn't indicate is what the '1', '2' and '3' represent for the backs.

Here is what I believe are the backs designated by these numbers:

1 - "When you think..." with blue ink
2 - "If you want..." with blue ink
3 - "Over 300 Subjects" with blank ink

Having stated that, I believe there are at least 9 errors in these back listings (or else I have very special cards of each of these). The below is the list of cards that might potentially have incorrect designations:


012a Jack Barry - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

018a George Bell - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

023a Bob Bescher - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

036a Bobby Byrne - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

072a Mickey Doolan - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

110a Topsy Hartsel - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

166a Amby McConnell - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

177a Fred Merkle - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead

258a Bill Sweeney - designated having a 2 (If you want) back, I believe listing should designate this card as a 1 (When you think) instead


It is interesting to note that all these possible discrepancies involve cards having backs designated to be "If you want", whereas I have seen these cards having the "When you think" back.

There might be more discrepancies...these are the ones I know about.


Brian

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by tycobb

Thanks Michael. From my experience the Blue backgrounds are more scarce. Only 24 players were issued with the blue background.

Anyone know the details / history of the blue backgrounds ?

Not too much info, but each of the 24 blue background variations are of the subjects from either the 1st series of 12 cards, or the 2nd series of 12. Also, each blue background card has a "When you think" back, printed in blue ink.

Here is the Old Cardboard link again, except this time I have changed the sorting so that it shows the cards listed in order by the series.

https://oldcardboard.com/m/m116/m116SearchIndex.asp


Brian

[anchorednw]

Originally Posted by tycobb

Thanks Michael. From my experience the Blue backgrounds are more scarce. Only 24 players were issued with the blue background.

Anyone know the details / history of the blue backgrounds ?


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It's a common misconception that the blue backgrounds are scarcer than the pastel. While some blue backgrounds are more scarce, some pastel backgrounds appear to be slightly more scarce than their blue counterparts. See Bresnahan, M. Brown, Crawford, Gibson, Jordan, Lajoie, Leach, Lord, Tenney, and Thomas.

[sb1]

As to the front back combinations for rarity/value it is not as easy as one would think. Normally the two more common Sporting Life backs are found on the first 18 series and then the "300 Subjects" backs on series 19-24, which are the scarce ones. All of these were issued in 1910-11. What is not well known(or in the guides) and overlooked is the fact that Sporting Life also put out many of the 1-18 series cards with "300 Subjects" backs in 1912 and 1913 which are not as scarce as the others. I believe these were issued in the Team Envelopes of the series 80-90 and possibly early team sets 50-70.

[StraightRaceCards]

Originally Posted by anchorednw

It's a common misconception that the blue backgrounds are scarcer than the pastel. While some blue backgrounds are more scarce, some pastel backgrounds appear to be slightly more scarce than their blue counterparts. See Bresnahan, M. Brown, Crawford, Gibson, Jordan, Lajoie, Leach, Lord, Tenney, and Thomas.

Good to know. I assumed blue was scarcer across the board

That rarity list on Old Cardboard was helpful