Ty Cobb not the monster many have made him out to be?

[sportscardtheory]

http://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/who-wa...w-thats-wrong/

Interesting article about the many myths of Ty Cobb.

[trdcrdkid]

We had a thread a couple of months ago about Leerhsen's bio of Cobb and Tim Hornbaker's, which came out at the same time. The discussion was spirited and interesting, including some back and forth about why Sam Crawford hated Cobb so much, and lots more:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=217919

[Pilot172000]

Cobb was very misunderstood.

[Joshchisox08]

Ehhhh here we are lads:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=217919

[sjim8660]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

http://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/who-wa...w-thats-wrong/

Interesting article about the many myths of Ty Cobb.

Thanks for posting this, its a great read. Makes me like Cobb even more.

[ls7plus]

The book is a great read, eliminating a lot of the BS found in the movie.

Regards,

Larry

[deadballfreaK]

Al Stump wrote a book that makes Cobb look like a psychopath. 90% lies. The movie is ridiculous, but entertaining. I believe Cobb was a racist and a difficult person to get along with, but he wasn't Satan! That book is such bullshit. He didn't rave at people and shoot his pistol in the hospital. A nurse who took care of him in his final days denies that. He was actually a model patient and signed baseballs for her. He gave to charities and gave money to former ball players down on their luck. He was a conflicted person, but no monster!

[Pilot172000]

I think Cobb was hyper competitive and never made a point to be one of the good ole boys. He was a southerner which immediately made him an outsider and he like most southerners made it personal. Was he a racist? Who wasn't in that era? They were all bigots in one form or fashion. They hated the Irish, the Chinese and any other minority that didn't fit into the mold.

I think that he did everything in absolutes, no grey areas and that is how it is. As a kid I had the movie on VHS and I watched it over and over. It's how I learned who Tris Speaker, Nap Lajoie and Mickey Cochrene were. Stump lied his a$$ off to make a small fortune off of someone else's name and unfortunately it stuck.

[sjim8660]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

I think Cobb was hyper competitive and never made a point to be one of the good ole boys. He was a southerner which immediately made him an outsider and he like most southerners made it personal. Was he a racist? Who wasn't in that era? They were all bigots in one form or fashion. They hated the Irish, the Chinese and any other minority that didn't fit into the mold.

I think that he did everything in absolutes, no grey areas and that is how it is. As a kid I had the movie on VHS and I watched it over and over. It's how I learned who Tris Speaker, Nap Lajoie and Mickey Cochrene were. Stump lied his a$$ off to make a small fortune off of someone else's name and unfortunately it stuck.

When you talk about being hyper competitive I think about Kobe Bryant. A lot of people don't like Kobe but he took the game serious and so did Cobb. Being the best does not always equal being loved. As a fan of sports I would take a Kobe or Cobb over anyone because you know they are finishers and they have a killer instinct that you cant coach.

[the 'stache]

I don't like Kobe because he's a rapist ahole. His hyper-competitive nature has nothing to do with it. Michael Jordan was the most competitive basketball player I've ever seen. He beat my Bucks like a drum, and it never bothered me one bit. Kobe is a scum bag, and I'd happily say it to his face.

Originally Posted by sjim8660

When you talk about being hyper competitive I think about Kobe Bryant. A lot of people don't like Kobe but he took the game serious and so did Cobb. Being the best does not always equal being loved. As a fan of sports I would take a Kobe or Cobb over anyone because you know they are finishers and they have a killer instinct that you cant coach.

[JTysver]

Heard rumors that the reason Jordan left the NBA was to avoid gambling allegations. Serve a multi-year suspension or make it appear as if your focus is elsewhere. Saves face for both Jordan and the NBA.

Also ironic is that his father was found murdered around this time.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by sjim8660

When you talk about being hyper competitive I think about Kobe Bryant. A lot of people don't like Kobe but he took the game serious and so did Cobb. Being the best does not always equal being loved. As a fan of sports I would take a Kobe or Cobb over anyone because you know they are finishers and they have a killer instinct that you cant coach.

Kobe is an excellent example. I look at Ted Williams the same way too.

[Joshwesley]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I don't like Kobe because he's a rapist ahole. His hyper-competitive nature has nothing to do with it. Michael Jordan was the most competitive basketball player I've ever seen. He beat my Bucks like a drum, and it never bothered me one bit. Kobe is a scum bag, and I'd happily say it to his face.

and he would beat you like a rented mule.

[jhs5120]

Didn't he beat up a crippled heckler?

So he was basically Ron Artest, but with a crippled veteran.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Didn't he beat up a crippled heckler?

So he was basically Ron Artest, but with a crippled veteran.

Just curious. Did you read Leerhsens' book or at least the article referenced by the OP?

[sjim8660]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I don't like Kobe because he's a rapist ahole. His hyper-competitive nature has nothing to do with it. Michael Jordan was the most competitive basketball player I've ever seen. He beat my Bucks like a drum, and it never bothered me one bit. Kobe is a scum bag, and I'd happily say it to his face.

There was only 2 people there so nobody except them know what really happened. Ultimately she took a payoff and Kobe was never found guilty of anything. Should he of been convicted? Maybe. Did she lie for a payoff? Maybe. Only they know the truth, either way it wasn't anything money couldn't solve, at least in their minds. I respect Kobe as a player, I don't like athletes for their personalities. We like athletes for their ability. People like Greg Hardy who are true scumbags and don't care what anyone thinks shouldn't be allowed to play sports and make millions.

-James Steele

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by deadballfreaK

Al Stump wrote a book that makes Cobb look like a psychopath. 90% lies. The movie is ridiculous, but entertaining. I believe Cobb was a racist and a difficult person to get along with, but he wasn't Satan! That book is such bullshit. He didn't rave at people and shoot his pistol in the hospital. A nurse who took care of him in his final days denies that. He was actually a model patient and signed baseballs for her. He gave to charities and gave money to former ball players down on their luck. He was a conflicted person, but no monster!

+1...Stump was a monster crook. Look at how many bogus Cobb balls and other autographs he put into the hobby....Also, Cobb financially took care of a lot of people including HOFer Mickey Cochrane. He also donated tons of money locally in Royston, Ga. for many things including little league baseball fields and hospitals...Yes, he was tough to get a long with, but he also had a big heart when spending money with people he really cared about...

[Tabe]

I have no doubt Leerhsen tried to be accurate and honest with his book but is awfully hard to give much credibility to a baseball author who would write nonsense like this: "another time turned a tap back to the pitcher into an inside-the-park home run". I mean, c'mon.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Joshwesley

and he would beat you like a rented mule.

And I'd sue him for every penny he's worth.

[Piratedogcardshows]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

And I'd sue him for every penny he's worth.

So you would happily call a man a scumbag to his face and if he retaliates you would sue him? Gotta say if your man enough to run your mouth off you have to take what comes from it.

[Pilot172000]

Back to the task at hand. There are countless talented people who seem to put the game, work or whatever else over personal relationships with others. It's not uncommon. What is uncommon is the fact that Cobb was so talented and stood above all others during the dead all era that no one received nearly the amount of scrutiny that has and does. Compare his list of books to any other and you will find him to be the most investigated player during the Pre-War Era not named Ruth.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Jason

So you would happily call a man a scumbag to his face and if he retaliates you would sue him? Gotta say if your man enough to run your mouth off you have to take what comes from it.

I wouldn't walk up to the guy and start hurling insults at him. I'm not a confrontational person. But, if he were close bye, and somebody asked my opinion of Bryant, I'd give it. If he chooses to resort to violence, then he'd get what's coming to him.

[Touch'EmAll]

Babe Ruth was no perfect dude - married but had mistresses. And probably even a child or two from mistresses- I think he adopted one. Late night partying with games the next day. How responsible is that? Ahh, can't be, we all love Ruth, right! Sometimes easy to sweep aside certain things with certain people, and hammer other dudes.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

babe ruth was no perfect dude - married but had mistresses. And probably even a child or two from mistresses- i think he adopted one. Late night partying with games the next day. How responsible is that? Ahh, can't be, we all love ruth, right! Sometimes easy to sweep aside certain things with certain people, and hammer other dudes.

+ 1,000,000

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Babe Ruth was no perfect dude - married but had mistresses. And probably even a child or two from mistresses- I think he adopted one. Late night partying with games the next day. How responsible is that? Ahh, can't be, we all love Ruth, right! Sometimes easy to sweep aside certain things with certain people, and hammer other dudes.

He also played in New York and was jovial. Being successful in New York makes up for a plethora of sins. That's not intended as a slight to the Big Apple just a testament to how much they love their baseball. Let's not even start on The Mick and his foibles. Point being Cobb is misunderstood

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by tschock

Just curious. Did you read Leerhsens' book or at least the article referenced by the OP?

Yeah, it doesn't refute him beating up some cripple. Actually it added maybe five more people that Cobb beat up in his lifetime. So like, Ron Artest, plus maybe a LeSsan McCoy nightclub brawl with potentially a Ray Rice.

[irv]

Leo Durocher sure doesn't seem to speak too highly of Cobb, and check out the still in the vid shortly after he says that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfcW7yYFhqk

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by irv

Leo Durocher sure doesn't seem to speak too highly of Cobb, and check out the still in the vid shortly after he says that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfcW7yYFhqk

Ooooh, Cobb talked some smack to a rookie. The horror!

As for that still image, the catcher in question actually defended Cobb, said he was going for the ball - and got it.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by irv

Leo Durocher sure doesn't seem to speak too highly of Cobb, and check out the still in the vid shortly after he says that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfcW7yYFhqk

Leo had one run in as a Rookie which is nothing.. I mean Ruth sawed his bat in half because he didn't want Bushers to hit. Both sound rough but not out of bounds.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Ooooh, Cobb talked some smack to a rookie. The horror!

As for that still image, the catcher in question actually defended Cobb, said he was going for the ball - and got it.

Seriously?

Would that be acceptable in today's game? Not likely, but I know things were different then.

I personally have no idea, one way or another, if the horror stories we were told about Cobb are true, but when you hear from past ball players speak about him, I think they carry some merit about what they say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh_kerKBBMw

Not sure how long this story, the good and bad about Cobb, has been going on, but I think like any rumor/tale/story, it will be debated to death with no real conclusion ever to be found.

[Tabe]

Again, nothing much in that clip about Cobb being awful other than repeating the falsehood about the sharpened spikes.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by irv

Seriously?

Would that be acceptable in today's game? Not likely, but I know things were different then.

I personally have no idea, one way or another, if the horror stories we were told about Cobb are true, but when you hear from past ball players speak about him, I think they carry some merit about what they say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh_kerKBBMw

Not sure how long this story, the good and bad about Cobb, has been going on, but I think like any rumor/tale/story, it will be debated to death with no real conclusion ever to be found.

Nothing is accepted in today's game anymore. They're turning it into a game for fairies.

The Utley rule at second base the Posey rule at home. These guys now make MILLIONS $$ they know full well what they're signing up for and with those MILLIONS they can afford doctors (although they're provided by the teams now) let alone how it was. Players didn't make anything compared to now and had no benefits. The richer the players get the more pampered they get and for some reason unknown to me, a wide variety of people embrace it.

Flag Football.

Sorry I'm no Rachel Phelps but jesus you can't slide hard into second anymore. You can't trample over the catcher anymore. We now have "challenges".

http://www.nj.com/sports/index.ssf/2...s_rays_ut.html

It's good to see at least one manager has spoken out in a way.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Nothing is accepted in today's game anymore. They're turning it into a game for fairies.

The Utley rule at second base the Posey rule at home. These guys now make MILLIONS $$ they know full well what they're signing up for and with those MILLIONS they can afford doctors (although they're provided by the teams now) let alone how it was. Players didn't make anything compared to now and had no benefits. The richer the players get the more pampered they get and for some reason unknown to me, a wide variety of people embrace it.

Flag Football.

Sorry I'm no Rachel Phelps but jesus you can't slide hard into second anymore. You can't trample over the catcher anymore. We now have "challenges".

http://www.nj.com/sports/index.ssf/2...s_rays_ut.html

It's good to see at least one manager has spoken out in a way.

Gibbons got a lot of flack for that!

I hear what you are saying, and I miss old time hockey, but with the current batch of lawsuits due to concussions and after hearing these guys speak who's careers were cut short (never mind the suicides) it has opened my eyes big time!

I know ball is a far cry from hockey as far as injuries go, but it was only a matter of time before ball, and all other sports, were looked at and changed due to ongoing injuries.

Just hope they can do something with all the theatrics in soccer as I might actually watch a game every now and then.

[RollieFingers]

interesting

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Again, nothing much in that clip about Cobb being awful other than repeating the falsehood about the sharpened spikes.

Actually if you listen to the audio version of "The Glory of..." they have 5-6 interviews with Cobb's teammates - and almost all defend him regarding the sharpening of spikes issue. One teammate - perhaps it was Davey Jones - indicated Cobb even approached the Commish about outlawing sharpened spikes. In the interview, teammates indicate Cobb did not want to be portrayed in that fashion. However, another written source indicates if Cobb did sharpen his spikes, it was an intentional act to unnerve the opposition - and would have done it with some deliberation to be seen by the opposing team.

Sadly, all of his teammates portray Cobb as an intense loner without many friends. And they also state that he was picked on relentlessly - even by his teammates....hiding his glove, stealing his shoes, etc. I imagine that would get tiresome after a while - even for the most patient.

Z

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Actually if you listen to the audio version of "The Glory of..." they have 5-6 interviews with Cobb's teammates - and almost all defend him regarding the sharpening of spikes issue. One teammate - perhaps it was Davey Jones - indicated Cobb even approached the Commish about outlawing sharpened spikes. In the interview, teammates indicate Cobb did not want to be portrayed in that fashion. However, another written source indicates if Cobb did sharpen his spikes, it was an intentional act to unnerve the opposition - and would have done it with some deliberation to be seen by the opposing team.

Sadly, all of his teammates portray Cobb as an intense loner without many friends. And they also state that he was picked on relentlessly - even by his teammates....hiding his glove, stealing his shoes, etc. I imagine that would get tiresome after a while - even for the most patient.

Z

He was hard driven
Emotionally damaged from a real jacked up home life
A Southerner in a very Northern Baseball league at a time when he might as well have been a foreigner.
The polar opposite of the team favorite, Sam Crawford.
This guy was a loner for a reason and he was completely misunderstood.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Sadly, all of his teammates portray Cobb as an intense loner without many friends. And they also state that he was picked on relentlessly - even by his teammates....hiding his glove, stealing his shoes, etc. I imagine that would get tiresome after a while - even for the most patient.

Z

Cobb had an awful introduction to the major leagues. His father was murdered/killed 3 weeks before he debuted, his teammates sawed his bats in half, hid his equipment, taunted him about his father's death, and a whole lot more - all while he was 18 years old. It's not hard to imagine that he was shaped for the worse as a result.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Cobb had an awful introduction to the major leagues. His father was murdered/killed 3 weeks before he debuted, his teammates sawed his bats in half, hid his equipment, taunted him about his father's death, and a whole lot more - all while he was 18 years old. It's not hard to imagine that he was shaped for the worse as a result.

Even with all this going on, he managed to make some very good friends in baseball. Some of which like Mickey Cochran he took care of after baseball. Walter Johnson and Tris Speaker both were friends and thought well of him. His insistence of Crawford's induction into the HOF tells me that in-spite of the fact that Crawford did more to damage his reputation as a player and a person than anyone, he was forgiving.

[ullmandds]

hell...ty had a repertrois of 9 different slides!!!! Thats HOF worthy!

[RollieFingers]

what none of you are asking is why would the league knowingly
fictionalize a players entire life for the sake revisionist history and let a myth live
indefinitely?

I havent read the article yet so I dont know how they address his alledged beating up of a fan that the long baseball documentary had no problem retelling.
Even though they were supposed to do exhaustive research

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by RollieFingers

what none of you are asking is why would the league knowingly
fictionalize a players entire life for the sake revisionist history and let a myth live
indefinitely?

We're talking the people that sold the Cooperstown myth for decades...

I havent read the article yet so I dont know how they address his alledged beating up of a fan that the long baseball documentary had no problem retelling.
Even though they were supposed to do exhaustive research

The "fan" in question harassed Cobb for a year or more and had been asked/told multiple times to knock it off. It's worth noting that his teammates went on strike to protest Cobb getting suspended.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by Tabe

We're talking the people that sold the Cooperstown myth for decades...


The "fan" in question harassed Cobb for a year or more and had been asked/told multiple times to knock it off. It's worth noting that his teammates went on strike to protest Cobb getting suspended.

Right on Both counts

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

Even with all this going on, he managed to make some very good friends in baseball. Some of which like Mickey Cochran he took care of after baseball. Walter Johnson and Tris Speaker both were friends and thought well of him. His insistence of Crawford's induction into the HOF tells me that in-spite of the fact that Crawford did more to damage his reputation as a player and a person than anyone, he was forgiving.

I would have to agree with you. It is puzzling to me how a man could be disliked almost universally by players & teammates, yet have friends that give a markedly different picture of him later in life. He was obviously an intelligent man - having used his pay to buy Coca-cola stock and an interest in a bottling operation which made him wealthy.

Makes you wonder what he would be like if you met him in person.

[tschock]

Question for all the lawyers in the house. If the above respondents in this thread were in a jury pool, would their posts here help you to determine whether or not you would dismiss them as a candidate?

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Mr. Leershen's book on Cobb won the SABR Larry Ritter award for 2016 last week

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Mr. Leershen's book on Cobb won the SABR Larry Ritter award for 2016 last week

I am gonna by this book and see first hand what he thinks.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by tschock

Question for all the lawyers in the house. If the above respondents in this thread were in a jury pool, would their posts here help you to determine whether or not you would dismiss them as a candidate?

I think you would have a hung jury. We could determine that he was difficult but negligently an A-hole!!

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Mr. Leershen's book on Cobb won the SABR Larry Ritter award for 2016 last week

Not surprising at all from an organization that does actual research.

One general observation from a number of these posts. It's interesting reading comments on 'facts' from those who either haven't read the article or repeating claims made from previously (fabricated) works as 'facts'.

I would also offer that Cobb wasn't as much "misunderstood" as he was "misrepresented".

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by tschock

Not surprising at all from an organization that does actual research.

One general observation from a number of these posts. It's interesting reading comments on 'facts' from those who either haven't read the article or repeating claims made from previously (fabricated) works as 'facts'.

I would also offer that Cobb wasn't as much "misunderstood" as he was "misrepresented".

My comments were made based on the 6-7 first hand interviews Ritter recorded when researching material for his book. The interviews were recorded and were first had accounts from teammates and other players that played with Cobb.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

My comments were made based on the 6-7 first hand interviews Ritter recorded when researching material for his book. The interviews were recorded and were first had accounts from teammates and other players that played with Cobb.

Zach,
Sorry, I poorly structured that post. I was NOT implying you, but others earlier in the this thread that seemed to be repeating other Cobb 'myths'.