Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[ullmandds]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1295981

[Peter_Spaeth]

They have outed several on the modern side.

There are others on the vintage side who don't have the paper trail too.

[sayheykid54]

From a pure business standpoint why would PWCC want to be linked to known card doctors who I believe are committing FRAUD?????? I think altering a card and misleading a potential buyer should be a punishable felony.

[pokerplyr80]

As long as they're getting through PSA these guys can buy the cards through multiple Ebay IDs and sell them through any auction house. The only way to stop this is to figure out how or why so many doctored cards are making it through. Especially the modern trimmed cards which should be easy to measure.

If anyone has been thinking about starting a third party grading service now may be the time to do so.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

As long as they're getting through PSA these guys can buy the cards through multiple Ebay IDs and sell them through any auction house. The only way to stop this is to figure out how or why so many doctored cards are making it through. Especially the modern trimmed cards which should be easy to measure.

If anyone has been thinking about starting a third party grading service now may be the time to do so.

Yeah, the only possibilities I can think of are incompetence (can't detect it), negligence (not putting in the effort to detect it), or corruption. But I don't know how we figure that out. Not long ago I would have said, the card doctors are just too good now, but based on what I am seeing on Blowout it's hard for me to believe that's all there is to it as some of these cards seem blatant even without the before photos.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

As long as they're getting through PSA these guys can buy the cards through multiple Ebay IDs and sell them through any auction house. The only way to stop this is to figure out how or why so many doctored cards are making it through. Especially the modern trimmed cards which should be easy to measure.

If anyone has been thinking about starting a third party grading service now may be the time to do so.

Brent is not a victim of Moser, he's a co-conspirator. There's a reason why he only sells through Brent.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Brent is not a victim of Moser, he's a co-conspirator. There's a reason why he only sells through Brent.

That may be true. But he doesn't need pwcc if he can get his cards through PSA. Any Ebay consignor or auction house will take the consignments. Especially if they're submitted under a different name.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

That may be true. But he doesn't need pwcc if he can get his cards through PSA. Any Ebay consignor or auction house will take the consignments. Especially if they're submitted under a different name.

People seem to think Brent is the one submitting the cards, though. And there are plenty of people who would not take cards from him.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

That may be true. But he doesn't need pwcc if he can get his cards through PSA. Any Ebay consignor or auction house will take the consignments. Especially if they're submitted under a different name.

Correct. PSA's multiple failures are the bigger threat to the hobby.

This widespread problem transcends PWCC. As long as the "card modifiers" continue to dupe PSA, these issues can and will rear their ugly head potentially anywhere.... eBay, Auction Houses, net54's BST, direct sales, trades, etc.

And why can't PSA just measure the cards, again? Has there been any response from them at all? It will be interesting to see if they ever acknowledge it, and how much their attorneys spin/downplay it. The power they have within the hobby is disgusting and shameful, and I wish that someone, somehow, some day could take them down.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

That may be true. But he doesn't need pwcc if he can get his cards through PSA. Any Ebay consignor or auction house will take the consignments. Especially if they're submitted under a different name.

Yet Moser almost exclusively uses Brent. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence as opposed to Brent being a full co-conspirator which could not be more obvious.

[groundskeeper]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1295981

The scariest part about this is how he's doing it on such low $$ cards.
If you go through THAT trouble for cards under $300....yikes man. YIKES.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by groundskeeper

The scariest part about this is how he's doing it on such low $$ cards.
If you go through THAT trouble for cards under $300....yikes man. YIKES.

All because of the registry crazies...its their fault!

[Marchillo]

Have every graded card measured to the exact “...“ And put that measurement on the back of the label in small print. If it doesn’t measure correctly but is within a graders tolerance, the buyer can determine if that is ok.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

Have every graded card measured to the exact “...“ And put that measurement on the back of the label in small print. If it doesn’t measure correctly but is within a graders tolerance, the buyer can determine if that is ok.

This is definitely a good idea and hopefully will be used in the future by the next...newest...best grading service!!!

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yet Moser almost exclusively uses Brent. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence as opposed to Brent being a full co-conspirator which could not be more obvious.

Assuming that's true, it doesn't appear likely that relationship will continue if pwcc wants to stay in business. So where will the cards go next? Someone will submit them, and someone will sell them. I'm much more concerned with what's going on at PSA than how involved Brent is. It's easy to avoid one auction house or Ebay if necessary. But pretty tough if you can't trust any PSA graded card.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yet Moser almost exclusively uses Brent. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence as opposed to Brent being a full co-conspirator which could not be more obvious.

+1...

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Assuming that's true, it doesn't appear likely that relationship will continue if pwcc wants to stay in business. So where will the cards go next? Someone will submit them, and someone will sell them. I'm much more concerned with what's going on at PSA than how involved Brent is. It's easy to avoid one auction house or Ebay if necessary. But pretty tough if you can't trust any PSA graded card.

Jesse, I hear you but Brent will keep on rocking on...You know why? EBAY (they don't give a f***) I know I'm not hitting on your initial response, but this in a nutshell is what all of this is about....

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Assuming that's true, it doesn't appear likely that relationship will continue if pwcc wants to stay in business. So where will the cards go next? Someone will submit them, and someone will sell them. I'm much more concerned with what's going on at PSA than how involved Brent is. It's easy to avoid one auction house or Ebay if necessary. But pretty tough if you can't trust any PSA graded card.

Overly optimistic. Now that they know how they were caught thy won't make the same mistakes again, which is why law enforcement needs to get involved.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Assuming that's true, it doesn't appear likely that relationship will continue if pwcc wants to stay in business. So where will the cards go next? Someone will submit them, and someone will sell them. I'm much more concerned with what's going on at PSA than how involved Brent is. It's easy to avoid one auction house or Ebay if necessary. But pretty tough if you can't trust any PSA graded card.

I’m not concerned about Brent staying in business. I’m concerned about him going to jail. You can worry about PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I’m not concerned about Brent staying in business. I’m concerned about him going to jail. You can worry about PSA.

Feels like Mastro and Allen all over again.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I’m not concerned about Brent staying in business. I’m concerned about him going to jail. You can worry about PSA.

Are you a betting man? I'll give you 3:1 odds he's not even indicted, much less goes to jail.

3:1 odds. You in?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Are you a betting man? I'll give you 3:1 odds he's not even indicted, much less goes to jail.

3:1 odds. You in?

Doug and Bill were probably a longer shot when all that was getting going.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I just think it would be really, really hard to prove that Brent knowingly accepted doctored cards on consignment. And even if you could prove it, I'm not sure exactly what you would charge him with? Wouldn't part of his defense be that the industry's most trusted third party authenticator said they were good?

I'm not defending him, just saying it would be really hard to get a conviction.


Oh, what the hell. 4:1 odds. Jeff?

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Are you a betting man? I'll give you 3:1 odds he's not even indicted, much less goes to jail.

3:1 odds. You in?

I’m in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I just think it would be really, really hard to prove that Brent knowingly accepted doctored cards on consignment. And even if you could prove it, I'm not sure exactly what you would charge him with? Wouldn't part of his defense be that the industry's most trusted third party authenticator said they were good?

I'm not defending him, just saying it would be really hard to get a conviction.


Oh, what the hell. 4:1 odds. Jeff?

I told you before David, wire fraud. And if you read all the material on Blowout you might change your mind. There's an incredible fact pattern emerging. If you'd rather play ostrich and pontificate, that's cool.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

I’m in.

We have to have a time limit. What do you think is fair?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

We have to have a time limit. What do you think is fair?

Are you just talking about a bet on knowingly being part of a conspiracy which involves selling altered cards or is shilling part of the bet too? Because if the feds do look, I suspect that they will look at both, and maybe some other stuff as well.

[egbeachley]

Tip of the iceberg. It’s gaining momentum. Even the doubters and supporters from the early Blowout threads are turning as they realize ALL graded cards are suspect.

This will be one heck of a National.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Are you just talking about a bet on knowingly being part of a conspiracy which involves selling altered cards or is shilling part of the bet too? Because if the feds do look, I suspect that they will look at both, and maybe some other stuff as well.

I don't think they'll have to look very far on the first prong, based on what I've seen on Blowout, and elsewhere.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Are you just talking about a bet on knowingly being part of a conspiracy which involves selling altered cards or is shilling part of the bet too? Because if the feds do look, I suspect that they will look at both, and maybe some other stuff as well.

I'll make it easy. Any conviction at all. I don't care if it's for unpaid library fines.

Edited to add: But there has to be a time limit. Within one year?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'll make it easy. Any conviction at all. I don't care if it's for unpaid library fines.

Edited to add: But there has to be a time limit. Within one year?

An indictment is not a conviction, nor is a year a realistic timeframe for a federal investigation.

[brad31]

Originally Posted by groundskeeper

The scariest part about this is how he's doing it on such low $$ cards.
If you go through THAT trouble for cards under $300....yikes man. YIKES.

I am guessing the low dollar cards are used to practice and test what gets graded and what fails so he can have confidence the big dollar cards will get through.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by brad31

I am guessing the low dollar cards are used to practice and test what gets graded and what fails so he can have confidence the big dollar cards will get through.

That may be, particularly if he wants to test a new method or instrument or whatever. I imagine some of these guys are quite meticulous in their work.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think they'll have to look very far on the first prong, based on what I've seen on Blowout, and elsewhere.

I'm not sure they'd have to look very far on the second prong either. I was just trying to establish the parameters.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

An indictment is not a conviction, nor is a year a realistic timeframe for a federal investigation.

Right. My bad. I said indictment, that's the bet.

If a year is not sufficient, why are people so concerned about the upcoming National, as if something big (arrests is what I believe was alluded to) is going to happen there?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Right. My bad. I said indictment, that's the bet.

If a year is not sufficient, why are people so concerned about the upcoming National, as if something big (arrests is what I believe was alluded to) is going to happen there?

I have no idea, you'll have to ask them. Maybe they're expecting to see some confrontations with PWCC, Beckett, PSA, etc. Maybe by then subpoenas could be served. Not sure.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

It's, to me, very similar to a situation in poker a few years back where a previous WSOP Main Event winner was founder of a poker site that was later discovered to be actively cheating the players by giving him and anyone he designated super-user status where they could see the other players cards.

By the online reaction you'd have thought He would've been risking death if he showed his face at the WSOP ever again. When he did there were a few snide remarks, but the internet vigilantes were, amazingly, nowhere to be found.

This has nothing to do with law enforcement issues, but with the internet muscles that people think will lead to live confrontation at an industry event.

[Goudey77]

Fun facts...you guys realize there are over 10,000 members on Net54 and hey guess what? I see the same handful of guys talking about the same thing on multiple threads. It’s very possible the other 9,990 members have differing opinions. So where is this going to lead us...I’ll give 9,990 : 1 odds that someone starts another thread related to the same topic.

Take a vacation and enjoy the rest of your holiday weekend!

[calvindog]

Martin, you’re aware that trying to stop discussion about Brent’s fraud wouldn’t stop a criminal investigation, right? Just checking.

[swarmee]

Come on, Martin is all sunshine and roses.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Fun facts...you guys realize there are over 10,000 members on Net54 and hey guess what? I see the same handful of guys talking about the same thing on multiple threads. It’s very possible the other 9,990 members have differing opinions. So where is this going to lead us...I’ll give 9,990 : 1 odds that someone starts another thread related to the same topic.

Take a vacation and enjoy the rest of your holiday weekend!

Most of us who belong to Net54 are content with our low grade raw T206's and T213's. My guess is that there are only a few dozen people on this forum who give a rat's ass about a trimmed $5000 Giannis rookie.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Most of us who belong to Net54 are content with our low grade raw T206's and T213's. My guess is that there are only a few dozen people on this forum who give a rat's ass about a trimmed $5000 Giannis rookie.

Thats a good point. Ive been collecting since the mid 70’s...ive never been too condition sensitive in my collecting...sure i like a crease free card with decent centering. This is where my condition discrimination ends. My meager collection brings me happiness and wont be much affected by a grading scandal. Im a manchild of principles...i have a high moral compass. Thieves/crooks should be
Punished if/when caught. This is where i stand.

[aconte]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Most of us who belong to Net54 are content with our low grade raw T206's and T213's. My guess is that there are only a few dozen people on this forum who give a rat's ass about a trimmed $5000 Giannis rookie.

Hopefully, more people here care about the VG 3 Green Ruth, Psa 1.5 to 2
T227 Cobb, and the Red T206 Cobb that went from 1.5 to 3 that have been
shown as possibly bad on blowout. These are just a few I found this morning.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Most of us who belong to Net54 are content with our low grade raw T206's and T213's. My guess is that there are only a few dozen people on this forum who give a rat's ass about a trimmed $5000 Giannis rookie.

Who is this Giannis you speak of?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by aconte

Hopefully, more people here care about the VG 3 Green Ruth, Psa 1.5 to 2
T227 Cobb, and the Red T206 Cobb that went from 1.5 to 3 that have been
shown as possibly bad on blowout. These are just a few I found this morning.

Exactly. We can claim that it's only rich assholes who care about altered cards here but the low grade ones are getting altered as well. The fraud affects the entire hobby, like it or not.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

It's, to me, very similar to a situation in poker a few years back where a previous WSOP Main Event winner was founder of a poker site that was later discovered to be actively cheating the players by giving him and anyone he designated super-user status where they could see the other players cards.

By the online reaction you'd have thought He would've been risking death if he showed his face at the WSOP ever again. When he did there were a few snide remarks, but the internet vigilantes were, amazingly, nowhere to be found.

This has nothing to do with law enforcement issues, but with the internet muscles that people think will lead to live confrontation at an industry event.

You're confusing what happened at ultimate bet and absolute poker with the full tilt scandal. Full tilt basically stole player funds and didn't have the money to pay players when the government effectively made these sites illegal in the US. Furgeson and Lederer are believed to be involved but did not have access to anyone's hole cards.

[Bigshot69]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

Who is this Giannis you speak of?

He’s the Milwaukee Bucks 1st team All-NBA Forward and MVP frontrunner. Modern basketball, his rookies included, are some of the hottest cards on the planet.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by Bigshot69

He’s the Milwaukee Bucks 1st team All-NBA Forward and MVP frontrunner. Modern basketball, his rookies included, are some of the hottest cards on the planet.

Oh, I see. I'm sure he, Lew and the Big O make a very formidable "Big Three".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Anyone here buy this psa 6 leaf Jackie?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1852

[Peter_Spaeth]

ouch
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1866