Most undervalued HOFers

[Brent G.]

In the last few days, a '61 Mantle SGC 6 was posted for $875 and sold within hours. It was apparently a good deal, as the last public auction sale was for $1,100.

A couple weeks back at a local show, I picked up this Frank Robinson in the same condition for $40. Frank had one helluva career, including being the first black manager, but Mantle is at least 21x more valuable.

Who are some others out there who are cheap buys compared to their career exploits?

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you can figure out the search function, we've literally had this discussion 100 times, and you'll find all the ideas people have had.

[packs]

I'll toss a vote to Arky Vaughan. Baseball Reference has him ranked as the 4th best shortstop of all time, behind only Wagner, Arod and Ripken. A nine time all star, batting champion, and lifetime 300 hitter. He averaged 6.9 WAR per 162 games over his career but is largely anonymous when people talk about the best shortstops of all time.

[ClementeFanOh]

Brent- Frank R is excellent. Can I interest you in Eddie Mathews? Monster
stats and undervalued but for his RC.

Trent King

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by packs

I'll toss a vote to Arky Vaughan. Baseball Reference has him ranked as the 4th best shortstop of all time, behind only Wagner, Arod and Ripken. A nine time all star, batting champion, and lifetime 300 hitter. He averaged 6.9 WAR per 162 games over his career but is largely anonymous when people talk about the best shortstops of all time.

Wow ... that's a good one and sadly a name I didn't know. Looks like he's got some great inexpensive cards out there.

[G1911]

Obligatory Eddie Collins mention. He has a claim to the greatest 2B of all time.

Joe Morgan is really cheap too, for another guy who one could reasonably argue is the best 2B.

Al Kaline is pretty cheap for how good he was. His rookie is a lot less than Ernie Banks in the same set but he was hardly inferior.

The over election of guys in the 30's has caused a lot of the ones who are deserving HOFers but were not in the A-tier of the Hall to be priced around the same level as the guys who really don't belong. Al Simmons types, I think they are undervalued relative to performance.



As time goes on, most guys who don't make the Hall and aren't Yankees or have some other claim to fame drift into the common bin. Guys like Billy Pierce or Ken Boyer who are just on the wrong side of the Hall line who generally sell for about as much as a backup utility infielder are all 'bargains' when you compare performance, though not good investments.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Brent- Frank R is excellent. Can I interest you in Eddie Mathews? Monster
stats and undervalued but for his RC.

Trent King

Yeah that seems like one of many small-market syndrome cases, Trent.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by G1911

Obligatory Eddie Collins mention. He has a claim to the greatest 2B of all time.

Joe Morgan is really cheap too, for another guy who one could reasonably argue is the best 2B.

Al Kaline is pretty cheap for how good he was. His rookie is a lot less than Ernie Banks in the same set but he was hardly inferior.

The over election of guys in the 30's has caused a lot of the ones who are deserving HOFers but were not in the A-tier of the Hall to be priced around the same level as the guys who really don't belong. Al Simmons types, I think they are undervalued relative to performance.



As time goes on, most guys who don't make the Hall and aren't Yankees or have some other claim to fame drift into the common bin. Guys like Billy Pierce or Ken Boyer who are just on the wrong side of the Hall line who generally sell for about as much as a backup utility infielder are all 'bargains' when you compare performance, though not good investments.

Yeah my favorite player growing up was Dave Concepcion, who definitely fits in that category, but definitely cheap to collect an entire career in cardboard.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If the hobby has undervalued players for decades, it may well continue to do so. Undervalued should not be confused with good investment.

[Mark17]

Frank Robinson and Warren Spahn top the list for me.

[packs]

I've always thought Bill Terry was undervalued too. People sometimes know his name because he hit 400 but you're more likely to remember Ted. Aside from hitting 401 in 1930, he was a career 341 hitter and drove in 100 runs six seasons in a row.

Despite being the last NL player to hit 400 and being on a very short list of players to do it in the modern era, it still took him 15 tries to get into the HOF.

[Casey2296]

-
Stan Musial
-

[rhettyeakley]

I feel we have hit some of the better ones already but here are my top few that tend to not trade at levels they should...

Eddie Collins
Frank Robinson
Joe Morgan
Kid Nichols (he doesn't have a ton of cards but he is better than he gets credit for)
Charlie Gehringer

[michael3322]

Fascinating discussion, as usual.

What about Paul Waner?

Fielding % as RF
1926 NL .975 (2nd)
1927 NL .980 (1st)
1928 NL .974 (2nd)
1929 NL .985 (1st)
1930 NL .960 (5th)
1931 NL .975 (1st)
1932 NL .971 (2nd)
1933 NL .980 (4th)
1934 NL .983 (1st)
1935 NL .981 (2nd)
1937 NL .969 (4th)
1938 NL .975 (3rd)
1939 NL .975 (2nd)

And also...
H 3152
BA .333
R 1627
RBI 1309
OBP .404
SLG .473
OPS .878
OPS+ 134

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

In the last few days, a '61 Mantle SGC 6 was posted for $875 and sold within hours. It was apparently a good deal, as the last public auction sale was for $1,100.

A couple weeks back at a local show, I picked up this Frank Robinson in the same condition for $40. Frank had one helluva career, including being the first black manager, but Mantle is at least 21x more valuable.

Frank Robinson cards are fairly priced. The only reason they might look undervalued is because Mickey Mantle cards fetch such ridiculously high prices.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If the hobby has undervalued players for decades, it may well continue to do so. Undervalued should not be confused with good investment.

I hear you, Peter, but education through boards like this can move the needle. I didn’t know who Jack Glasscock was until 6 months ago — it’s what led me to this site, looking for an 1887 A&G. Somehow I was part of a spike in those prices.

Glad to learn about two names I’ve never heard of in this thread.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I’m surprised only one mention of Musial. His career stats top every single player mentioned here and his cards might be a little more pricey than most mentioned here but nowhere near the Mantle/Mays/Aaron/Clemente/Jackie/Williams/DiMaggio realm.

[Jay Wolt]

I'd go w/ Warren Spahn
all time winningest lefty w/ 363 wins

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

I’m surprised only one mention of Musial. His career stats top every single player mentioned here and his cards might be a little more pricey than most mentioned here but nowhere near the Mantle/Mays/Aaron/Clemente/Jackie/Williams/DiMaggio realm.

Used to be Musial. That was when the Propagandas Montiel was bringing $500 instead of $5000.

[vintage321]

1) musial
2) steve carlton
3) bob gibson

[bk400]

+1 for Spahn and Musial.

The Musial Propagandas is on my wish list, but I'm priced out. That said, it would probably be multiples more expensive if it were an Aaron or a Mantle rookie card of comparable rarity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

I hear you, Peter, but education through boards like this can move the needle. I didn’t know who Jack Glasscock was until 6 months ago — it’s what led me to this site, looking for an 1887 A&G. Somehow I was part of a spike in those prices.

Glad to learn about two names I’ve never heard of in this thread.

Perhaps, but in the two decades or more this Board has been going it's always the same names and nobody ever seems to move out of the undervalued category. IMO two decades from now Collins, Foxx, Musial, Spahn, Mathews, etc. will still be undervalued. It's an interesting discussion, my only point was don't think of these players as great investiments.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Glenn:

I believe that the Montiel Musial is more of a reflection on today’s moniker that rarity trumps everything else as opposed to Musial cards in general selling for big bucks. Look at his traditionally accepted 48 Bowman rookie compared to rookie cards of Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Jackie & Williams.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If the hobby has undervalued players for decades, it may well continue to do so. Undervalued should not be confused with good investment.

And that's not what the OP asked. He asked for "cheap buys compared to their career exploits"

Agree with the names mentioned above with Joe Morgan being my first choice. I'll add a couple more:

Jim 'Cakes' Palmer - 3 Cy Youngs, 6x All-Star, 4 GG, No-hitter
Yogi Berra - 3 MVPs, 13 WS rings (including as a manager), and 18 All-Star selections

[Yoda]

George Sisler.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by vintage321

1) musial
2) steve carlton
3) bob gibson

Just noticed recently how cheap Gibson autos are.

[Balticfox]

Jim Kaat, Luis Aparicio, Nellie Fox, Ernie Banks and Bobby Richardson are five more names that have not been mentioned. Check out their Gold Glove wins as well as their other numbers.

[jingram058]

Chuck Klein.

[ValKehl]

Most undervalued? Edgar Charles "Sam" Rice, of course!! Except for Walter Johnson, no player had a greater career with the Washington Senators than Sam Rice! Okay, I realize this isn't saying much!

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Chuck Klein.

I came here to say this, but from an autograph perspective. He passed away young, was nearly non-responsive through the mail and additionally had others signing mail requests on his behalf. Being a Phillie on some truly awful teams certainly didn't help matters any. Adding to this is how little he was appreciated post-career and how it took decades for him to be inducted. It feels like he's truly forgotten about. Finding his autograph on anything decent, even a nice index card, is actually quite the challenge. He's usually encountered on multi-signed album pages which can be had for what I feel is a pittance.

Another fellow who deserves more value is Hugh Duffy. While he was with the Red Sox for so long after his playing days and was responsive to autograph requests, it seems as though he simply wasn't flooded with as much mail as other HOFers of his era who also passed in the 1950's. It's just strange to me. Another factor to consider regarding Duffy's autograph is that there is so often some sort of condition flaw; be it a smear, a bad pen, or simply an unappealing autograph due to advancements of Duffy's age. Finding a nice signature on any medium is always more difficult.

[RayBShotz]

All Pitchers.

Such an undervalued aspect of the hobby is the hitter value bias.

The pitchers are such an important part of the history of the game and one of the biggest reasons I have followed the sport all my life.
Only a very few are fairly valued.
Bu that could just be me.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

Just noticed recently how cheap Gibson autos are.

Doesn't mean they are undervalued per se though. That dude signed a ton. So did Bob Feller.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by RayBShotz

All Pitchers.

Such an undervalued aspect of the hobby is the hitter value bias.

The pitchers are such an important part of the history of the game and one of the biggest reasons I have followed the sport all my life.
Only a very few are fairly valued.
Bu that could just be me.

This.

Especially for postwar vintage. For pitchers not named Koufax or Ryan, most cards besides rookies in nice shape are unbelievably affordable. This includes:

Ford
Feller
Spahn
Marichal
Gibson
Seaver
Palmer
Perry
Carlton
Jenkins

And doubtless others I'm failing to mention.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by RayBShotz

All Pitchers.

All?! That's a preposterous, blanket statement.

Have you seen what even beat-up Leaf Paige "RCs" that aren't even really RCs have been selling for? There are countless examples, but the value of this card confounds me considering it's not even a true RC.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

All?! That's a preposterous, blanket statement.

Have you seen what even beat-up Leaf Paige "RCs" that aren't even really RCs have been selling for? There are countless examples, but the value of this card confounds me considering it's not even a true RC.

With his story and so few cards, I think Satch is in a class of his own.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

All?! That's a preposterous, blanket statement.

Have you seen what even beat-up Leaf Paige "RCs" that aren't even really RCs have been selling for? There are countless examples, but the value of this card confounds me considering it's not even a true RC.

If you are basing the value on the fact that it's a "RC", you are missing the point. It's valued the way it is because it's (supposedly) a very short print in a tough set. How short of a print it is and how rare it actually is may be debatable, but I think the fact that it's Paige's first card in a nationally issued set may be relatively down on the list. Same with the Bob Feller in that set, which is most definitely not a RC.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by packs

I've always thought Bill Terry was undervalued too. People sometimes know his name because he hit 400 but you're more likely to remember Ted. Aside from hitting 401 in 1930, he was a career 341 hitter and drove in 100 runs six seasons in a row.

Despite being the last NL player to hit 400 and being on a very short list of players to do it in the modern era, it still took him 15 tries to get into the HOF.

That's a good one -- and what a beautiful card this is.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps, but in the two decades or more this Board has been going it's always the same names and nobody ever seems to move out of the undervalued category. IMO two decades from now Collins, Foxx, Musial, Spahn, Mathews, etc. will still be undervalued. It's an interesting discussion, my only point was don't think of these players as great investiments.

Peter, great point. I have seen these discussions in the past and many of these players will still be undervalued.

I like Brooks Robinson, but nothing will change in the future IRT his cards.

[packs]

I've always thought Harmon Killebrew was the most undervalued of all 500 home run club members. One of his 55 Topps rookies recently sold for just over a thousand dollars in a PSA 7. Hard to find other rookie cards that old in that grade for the same price.

[Writehooks]

Catfish Hunter.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

If you are basing the value on the fact that it's a "RC", you are missing the point. It's valued the way it is because it's (supposedly) a very short print in a tough set. How short of a print it is and how rare it actually is may be debatable, but I think the fact that it's Paige's first card in a nationally issued set may be relatively down on the list. Same with the Bob Feller in that set, which is most definitely not a RC.

I appreciate the insight and clarification. At the same time, its value assurdely still has much to do with the fact that it depicts Paige as opposed to Andy Lapihuska. Therefore, brining it back to the point that stating all (or nearly all) HOF pitchers' cards are undervalued makes no sense. Some? Sure, but the same can be said of even more non-pitchers.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I appreciate the insight and clarification. At the same time, its value assurdely still has much to do with the fact that it depicts Paige as opposed to Andy Lapihuska. Therefore, brining it back to the point that stating all (or nearly all) HOF pitchers' cards are undervalued makes no sense. Some? Sure, but the same can be said of even more non-pitchers.

Yes, I doubt the hoopla would be quite the same over a common card even if truly scarce.

I don't know that "all pitchers" was meant literally. I would agree with whoever said that however in principle that for star / HOF pitchers - the value proposition is down considerably when compared to star hitters. I don't know if more hitters just than I realize can have that claim made or not, but there are certainly notable examples of both. This is a case sometimes where "sport good" or "sport popular" doesn't translate directly to "hobby popular." It's hard to imagine a player on his career much better or with more accolades than Frank Robinson - but you can still routinely get a nice 1959 Topps card of him for like 20 bucks. Defies logic.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

This is a case sometimes where "sport good" or "sport popular" doesn't translate directly to "hobby popular." It's hard to imagine a player on his career much better or with more accolades than Frank Robinson - but you can still routinely get a nice 1959 Topps card of him for like 20 bucks. Defies logic.

Very true.

We definitely know that Frank Robinson has never been "hobby popular". I have to imagine that the fact that he was never a monstrous fan favorite may have something to do with that. Same with Eddie Mathews.

But, immediately defying this logic are the aforementioned Brooks Robinson, and to a similar extent, Killebrew. There have been few in the game more beloved than Brooks, and we all know he deserved every iota of any good sentiment that came his way. Why, then, haven't his cards been shown the same love in a monetary sense? I guess we'll never know. And please, let's not use "He wasn't a Yankee" as the answer! From the autograph side (AKA my side) of matters, I can tell you that Orioles collectors are willing to spend, too. Perhaps not as much on Brooks since he was such a signing machine, but I am simply stating that O's autograph collectors aren't cheapskates. Does that not translate into the card end of things? Apparently, not in Brooks' case? That's a head-scratcher.

[Fred]

Has anyone mentioned Rogers Hornsby?

[Balticfox]

Not yet, but I was thinking about Rogers Hornsby since he's one of my favourite early greats. The reason I didn't mention him is that I have no clue as to how expensive his cards are compared to other stars of the same era.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's an interesting discussion, my only point was don't think of these players as great investiments.

Not that all of us are here to discuss investments. My preferred sources for such discussions are the Wall Street Journal, Barron's and the Northern Miner.

I'm here to discuss cards though. And I like to hear about cheap ones!

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by packs

I've always thought Bill Terry was undervalued too. People sometimes know his name because he hit 400 but you're more likely to remember Ted. Aside from hitting 401 in 1930, he was a career 341 hitter and drove in 100 runs six seasons in a row.

Despite being the last NL player to hit 400 and being on a very short list of players to do it in the modern era, it still took him 15 tries to get into the HOF.

I'm actually going to go with Ted Williams. For someone who can arguably lay claim to being among the top three ballplayers of all-time, his cards are still very moderately priced.

[Balticfox]

Adam Warshaw has dealt thoughtfully with this exact topic in his blog:

Why Mantle? - Adam's Card Blog

Overall though when it comes to cards in general I'll make two points:

1. Rookie cards are tremendously overrated and thus overpriced. I'm more interested in a player's most aesthetically pleasing card than in his rookie card.

2. Unmarked checklists are tougher and thus more exciting to find than are any stars.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Not that all of us are here to discuss investments. My preferred sources for such discussions are the Wall Street Journal, Barron's and the Northern Miner.

I'm here to discuss cards though. And I like to hear about cheap ones!

Sure, but the reality is that there are a lot of people these days who -- if they don't view cards as outright investments -- are concerned about buying cards that will appreciate in value, or at least retain value. Just how it is.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Very true.

We definitely know that Frank Robinson has never been "hobby popular". I have to imagine that the fact that he was never a monstrous fan favorite may have something to do with that. Same with Eddie Mathews.

But, immediately defying this logic are the aforementioned Brooks Robinson, and to a similar extent, Killebrew. There have been few in the game more beloved than Brooks, and we all know he deserved every iota of any good sentiment that came his way.

Yeah, it's definitely wonky. Ernie Banks is another example. The rookie card is pricey, but beyond that most stuff even in EX graded shape won't bust many budgets. To me he fits the universally loved / popular for a team checkbox in the same way that Brooks does for Baltimore.

BTW, finally picked up a '57 Topps Brooks Robinson earlier this year. Love it!