Holiday Rack Packs?

[mferronibc]

I have seen a bunch of these Holiday Rack packs pop up on Ebay (the ones that have an image of Santa and Seasons Greetings written on them) anywhere from the early-60s to mid-80s and wondering what anyone's experience with them are. My understanding is they were put together by non-Topps entities second market therefore I assume they are made up of commons and unlikely to have a big hit if opened. That being said, I have seen a few mid-1970s rack packs going on Ebay with Aaron, Clemente and Ryan showing on the front so maybe this assumption is incorrect? Also doesn't look all that well protected in cheap cellophane so I doubt card grades end up super high in general (but better than years in bicycle spokes at least).

Has anyone ever bought these and found something worthwhile?

[Promethius88]

They are crap and still being made today. They go back to the 50's, have low to mid grade cards and they will put some stars in there to make them sell. I have seen "dealers" at shows trying to say how tough it is to get a 60's or early 70's rack. I move on and don't even look at the rest of their stuff as that shows me their general ignorance.

[ALR-bishop]

[ALR-bishop]

http://net54baseball.com/showthread....mas+rack+packs

http://net54baseball.com/showthread....mas+rack+packs

[1952boyntoncollector]

I almost made comment a few days ago about where is they next 'holiday rack pack' discussion going to start again..

we can just cut and paste the answers..

sort of like the NBA discussion about when a home team is up 2-0 in a series of best of 7 is it over for the other team

or for the divisional round in NFL whether a week of rest is better for the division winner versus the wild card team that played a round and isnt stale.

always the same discussion etc

[ALR-bishop]

They come up almost as often as threads complaining about 707, Dean and Yepdog prices

[mferronibc]

Thanks for the info everyone. Have to say honestly as a new collector it’s a little bit of a turn off when you post something and have people complain that your question was old hat and could have been answered with a search. I appreciate the links to discussion that was already had and learned a great deal by reading the, but to spend the time and effort posting an eye-roll complaint I think is in poor taste to the community here. Just my 2 cents.

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by mferronibc

Thanks for the info everyone. Have to say honestly as a new collector it’s a little bit of a turn off when you post something and have people complain that your question was old hat and could have been answered with a search. I appreciate the links to discussion that was already had and learned a great deal by reading the, but to spend the time and effort posting an eye-roll complaint I think is in poor taste to the community here. Just my 2 cents.

And there's this...

[JollyElm]

I will actually answer what the OP asked...

A while back, I had a sizable CC gift card to play around with, so I said 'what the hey' and actually bought a pair of 1972 'Holiday Packs.' I knew it was a bad move, but took the gamble anyway, because hope is a dangerous thing. I've been collecting 1972 high numbers in PSA 9 condition (as well as upgrading the centering of my non-graded sets), and the pair I bought had both the Joe Morgan and Steve Carlton Traded cards visible with nearly perfect centering. A high grade, properly centered Morgan is one of the toughest cards to find in the set. Wicked tough. The other cards shown were high numbers as well. After opening the packs (I believe I have a video of it?), I found the cards to be as advertised. Really, really nice shape, centering all over the place and no possibility of being 9's. Perfect for a binder set. The problem was on the inside of the packs, as I knew it would be. Beneath the marquees name high numbers were low number commons, the Sparky Lyles and Alex Johnsons of the world. In conclusion, for the amount I paid, it was a complete bust. Yup, it bears repeating. Hope is a dangerous thing.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by mferronibc

Have to say honestly as a new collector it’s a little bit of a turn off when you post something and have people complain that your question was old hat and could have been answered with a search.

I read this as "I'm too lazy to do my own research. Please coddle me." This board has been going on for 20 years or more. Do a search, find a thread, and bump it if you need more questions answered. Doing anything on the internet requires a thick skin.

[JollyElm]

Hey, Matt, when you're doing your searches, also search for how to employ the 'ignore' function so you don't ever have to slog through the posts of dipsh_ts here.

[mferronibc]

Yeah I’m staring to learn it’s the same people over and over. Definitely don’t appreciate being called lazy and I don’t need a history lesson on the integrity of the message board. It’s supposed to be fun and connect people maybe even make friendships. I appreciate all the positive vibes from most!

[Griffins]

Matt, it may not be to silence your questions in favor of a search, but rather to give you even more background and other peoples perspectives than the ones posted in your thread.
In this particular case Al is one of the most generous people you'll meet in many ways, but especially in sharing knowledge. You can't be expected to know that and I know it seems like you were being shot down (I've been there, as I suspect we all have) but considering the source I think it was an effort to give you as much possible information as one could find on your query.

I"ll add that Xmas racks are fairly worthless IMO, and other than a novelty item in a display I would not place any value on them other than for the handful of commons they contain. And suspect the commons you can't see in there are worse than the ones you can.

[ALR-bishop]

Thanks Anthony. I think Matt and I are good

[tulsaboy]

There was a guy at the National that had a whole table full of them. Dozens and dozens of them. I even kinda looked behind his table a bit to see if I could find the raw materials he was using to make them.

I was surprised to see them there, but he was only charging a few dollars for them. So for folks who wanted to spend a couple bucks and "open" packs with old cards in them, no harm no foul. But as they are not original manufacturer's packs, and are not even period pieces, I think they are novelties at best.
kevin

[chalupacollects]

I have a 55 Topps rack pack I bought from Mark Murphy about 20 years ago with Willie Mays on the back... Have always assumed it was one of the legit ones...

[ALR-bishop]

Murphy and Mathews ( see correspondence above) claimed that they came upon on a stash of them back in early 2000s. They said the cards were excess Topps cards that were obtained by a 3d party who packaged them for sale in retail stores at Christmas. I think the packs Murphy started selling originally were from 54 to 63. Later 52s and 53s surfaced.Now you see them into the 70s

Were there some packaged in the 60s or 70s or even 80s, or were all of them later creations ? I have not come across anyone who can conclusively say they bought them in the 60s or 70s or 80s at some retail store. Nor is is clear who was the original packager and how they got the cards ( from secondary market or Topps)

None of the cards seem mint, but some look to be in the 5-7 range

I find the interesting from a hobby history standpoint. Who originally packaged the ones Murphy sold, when did it occur, where were they originally sold ( if anywhere) and what was the source of the inventory used ?

There is no doubt they are still being churned out today. Is it being done by the same person(s), or a new group, or possibly multiple groups ?

I just find the lack of clarity on the origin and ongoing history of these things interesting and am surprised no one has ever come forward with the whole story, if there is one

[mrmopar]

I have never looked any deeper, but several seller accounts (may have been linked or the same owner) are selling them currently. All of the locations seem to be Canada of the ones I see come up. I only took notice because the s/h is higher than "normal". I decided that I would buy one of each year showing Garvey on top as a novelty, knowing full well they were made in the recent past. I am not convinced otherwise, given the seemingly endless supply, that they are not being made fresh as they are being listed either.

They all have stars on top in heavy quantity, which just screams "made intentionally and recently", as the random factor seems to have been removed from the equation.

Anyway, tried to get them for under $10 delivered or as close to it as possible, which is more than the raw cards inside are probably worth in most cases. It seems the asking prices are up a bit lately though, some around $10, others around $20 now for those I see. I stopped buying them after getting most between 1971-1980.

[rlorenz]

I only have this for funsies...they would grade from 6 to a solid 8. This is actually now mounted on my wall with other psa graded 59 packs. but it was a fun thing just to have. I got this a while back :-)

The reality is they are not topps created...they are well known to be packaged in the 80's....great for fun but i have not seen one opened where there is a legit good card hidden. What you see is what you get essentially. I can tell you they are real cards and at least in my case unaltered from what i can tell under a loop and taking measurements.


Mantle.jpg

[ALR-bishop]

Do you have a source for the “known”packaged in the 80s. They are obviously still being packaged today, and Murphy did not surface them until the early 2000s, but I have still not seen any concrete info on when they were first packaged, by whom, or where they were actually retailed ( if at all )

[JackW]

Any thoughts to the "100 Genuine" claim in the description?

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=94957

[rlorenz]

Bishop - I do not have a source right off hand....But here is what i do remember. I specifcally remember seeing these on ebay from Mark M in 1995. I also remember these card shows and conventions 92-93. So I could be off on my years but I do distively remember them.

That said they are for sure being made still, there is no question the only reason i got mine is it looked cool. and frankly did not cost me a arm and a leg :-)

[ALR-bishop]

In the notes above I received from Murphy and his partner Mathews both say they came across them in 2001, and their SCD ads started shortly thereafter. But they could not or would not say who they got them from, or where they came from originally, when they were packaged or where, nor could they name any stores were they were know to have been retailed at Christmas or otherwise

[rlorenz]

I trust your notes :-) - Bishop. I recall seeing them in the 90's for sure on ebay right around XMAS. So i recant my statement i should say the 90's not 80's :-).

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Do you have a source for the “known”packaged in the 80s.

The bottom line though is these packs do not consist of new unsold Topps cards repackaged by a jobber just weeks after the end of that year's baseball season to be sold as rack packs by mass market merchandisers such as F.W. Woolworth, S.S. Kresge, W.T. Grant or Zellers. No one to my knowledge has vouchsafed that he remembers seeing these Xmas rack packs in five-and-dime stores or supermarket checkout lines in the 1950's or early 1960's. Moreover the cards contained are not necessarily pack fresh. Therefore they're a fraud.

[swarmee]

Welcome to the party. Did you bring Zima?

[Balticfox]

Huh?! Who's Zima?



If you're talking about the drink (I looked it up), it's not sold in my neck of the woods. But if you absolutely, positively need to get there fast, you might try this beverage:

[NiceDocter]

Maybe a better holiday title for these "Rack Packs" would be April Fools Day

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Huh?! Who's Zima?

You re-opened a 5 year old thread for no reason, as far as I can tell. So you're "late to the party."

[ALR-bishop]

John---I should try to gather up all the old threads discussing these. Maybe at 5 years older the packs have gone up in value

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by swarmee

You re-opened a 5 year old thread for no reason....

You're wrong. I had good reason. These Xmas Packs still crop up all over the place and I was wondering whether there was any new data or speculation to undermine or contradict my previous impressions.

Nor of course is any reason needed to post in a thread of any age other than interest in the topic.

Originally Posted by swarmee

So you're "late to the party."

There's no statute of limitations on posted content. Posts are pretty well there for the duration.

[ALR-bishop]

Matt— if you read through this thread and those linked in the posts I think you will know as much as anyone. Even Murphy the guy to originally sold them admitted they were cards repackaged by someone other than Topps. What has never been clear is when they were first churned out. I think most feel it was the 90s rather than the 60s or 70s. I think it is pretty clear some are still being churned out. I have seen posts by some who say they saw them in retails sores around Christmas but no solid proof has been posted to my knowledge. Nor has an exact date for their initial appearance been established beyond Murphy’s ads for them in SCD discussed in the listed threads

As I recall Murphy said the packs he originally obtained ( he never identified the seller) were from 54-63. Later they started showing up for years prior and later.

[JollyElm]

I don't think I've ever heard of someone pulling a winner of a card out of the middle of one of these abominations, so they are purposely created (and priced) to play on the hope of the unknown.

If you ever choose to buy one, the decision should be based solely on the cards that are showing. I bought one a bunch of years ago, because it had an impossible to find centered 1972 Topps #40 Bob Barton IA card on front, which was nice. Behind it? Of course, zilch.

[jmoran19]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I don't think I've ever heard of someone pulling a winner of a card out of the middle of one of these abominations, so they are purposely created (and priced) to play on the hope of the unknown.

If you ever choose to buy one, the decision should be based solely on the cards that are showing. I bought one a bunch of years ago, because it had an impossible to find centered 1972 Topps #40 Bob Barton IA card on front, which was nice. Behind it? Of course, zilch.

These are as fake as Caitlyn Jenner’s boobies but seen one winner pulled that wasn’t showing on the top or bottom of the pack, 1960 Koufax via a YouTube video

[Balticfox]

I suspect that Youtube video was made by one of the fellows who was putting those Xmas packs together to market his product.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

They come up almost as often as threads complaining about 707, Dean and Yepdog prices

Al we just had a mention about that in the main board recently primarily about Dean's. Some things never change even five years later.

Rich

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Huh?! Who's Zima?



If you're talking about the drink (I looked it up), it's not sold in my neck of the woods. But if you absolutely, positively need to get their fast, you might try this beverage:

Other than a handful of special releases, it hasn't been sold in any US neck of the woods since 2008.

Friends and I tried it when it first came out.
One remarked "Zima Zucks" which it did, awful stuff.

And that's a use of Zucks about 20 years early.....

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Murphy and Mathews ( see correspondence above) claimed that they came upon on a stash of them back in early 2000s. They said the cards were excess Topps cards that were obtained by a 3d party who packaged them for sale in retail stores at Christmas. I think the packs Murphy started selling originally were from 54 to 63. Later 52s and 53s surfaced.Now you see them into the 70s

Were there some packaged in the 60s or 70s or even 80s, or were all of them later creations ? I have not come across anyone who can conclusively say they bought them in the 60s or 70s or 80s at some retail store. Nor is is clear who was the original packager and how they got the cards ( from secondary market or Topps)

None of the cards seem mint, but some look to be in the 5-7 range

I find the interesting from a hobby history standpoint. Who originally packaged the ones Murphy sold, when did it occur, where were they originally sold ( if anywhere) and what was the source of the inventory used ?

There is no doubt they are still being churned out today. Is it being done by the same person(s), or a new group, or possibly multiple groups ?

I just find the lack of clarity on the origin and ongoing history of these things interesting and am surprised no one has ever come forward with the whole story, if there is one

I found it interesting Skip Mathews said the story about Sy throwing excess 1952 Topps high numbers on a barge was true. However, he didn't provide any reasons

Good stuff Al, thanks for sharing

[jchcollins]

Would it be correct to assume that some of these are more badly done than others? The soft, smooth plastic almost like what team bags are made of today that I’ve seen used in some of these creations is not period correct. If real “cello” repacks were made in the late 50’s or early 60’s - wouldn’t it have been with that crinkly kind of plastic from that time period?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

If real “cello” repacks were made in the late 50’s or early 60’s - wouldn’t it have been with that crinkly kind of plastic from that time period?

Yes - which is another of many reasons to believe that these Holiday Rack Packs aren't legitimate vintage period pieces.

[ALR-bishop]

I read an article once that purported to tell you how the differentiate the "older' or "original" rack packs from the later ones. It involved the materials,the wrapping and staples used, and the positioning of the Christmas decorations on the wrapping. But you would have needed both versions in hand or have been smarter than I am to tell the differences apart from ebay scans. The older material was supposed to confirm those packs were from the 60s and 70s. But I have never seen any concrete confirmation these thing were actually from or sold in those decades

[Exhibitman]

I recently sold a legitimate 1978 Topps rack pack. In researching the price to ask, I found dozens of these holiday racks, far more than the number of legitimate racks. That tells me that there is something rotten about these packs. I wouldn't pay any sort of premium for one.

[jchcollins]

No doubt I have said this before in one of the various other threads that always seems to pop up about the Holiday Racks -

But I have the impression this was something that was maybe tinged with legitimacy back in the day, maybe the 1980's - where someone found where this had really been done and there were a smattering of such creations actually from the 1950's or early 60's...

But since they proved so easy to duplicate, the scammer train ran rampant, and now today these are all generally discredited because there is just so much fake / bad product out there, which now dwarfs the numbers of anything legitimate which may have existed once upon a time.

And if that is true, I find the whole story just sad.

PS - the worst of these I've seen was a Youtuber who had what he swears is a "legit" one (from his source that sold the "only" legit ones...) that had a '56 Mantle showing. To be honest if anything was legit, it could have been this one, but I don't know - and it's of course impossible to tell just watching a video. (He didn't open it...) I later saw him trying to sell it, ostensibly just trying to recoup what he was out. I never found out how that story ended.