Is having provenance or a pedigree on holder good

[BeanTown]

I’ve seen many graded items that come from player families or a well known collector. Does having their name on a TPG label help, hurt or doesn’t really matter to you when buying or bidding?

[tkd]

If it's memorabilia family provenance makes a big difference to me and I will often bid more if it comes directly from the family. If it's a sports card not signed it doesn't really add any value for me having their name on the label. Nor does it make it less valuable. If I want the card I want the card. The only exception to that was in 2018 or so when Linda Ruth Tosetti/Ruth family auctioned off family owned Babe Ruth items. I bid heavily on many of those items including some Goudey Ruth's owned by the Ruth family. If anyone won the Goudey Ruth's owned by the family please feel free to post.

[Jay Wolt]

If you collect "player owned pedigreed" cards, like I do, then having it specified on the flip helps.

[BioCRN]

Old Mill T206 Buck Herzog SGC A

vs

Old Mill T206 Buck Herzog SGC A (Large Ass - Net54)

[Jay Wolt]

[NiceDocter]

I think it’s kind of cool to have some cards with a famous collector like Buck Barker or Lionel Carter. Other than that….. doesn’t add anything for me.

[mrreality68]

I think it is pretty cool and for memorabilia it might help especially with real collectors but for most people and for flippers I do not think it matters

[skelly423]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

I think it’s kind of cool to have some cards with a famous collector like Buck Barker or Lionel Carter. Other than that….. doesn’t add anything for me.

There are certain collectors that will probably command a premium (Uncle Jimmy Autographs and Lionel Carter come to mind for me), but I think for most cards a pedigree has no impact on the resale value of the card

[Leon]

I think there should have been another option.


D. Pedigreed from someone that actually matters.


I couldn't care less about a Collectors Collector pedigree....but a Lionel Carter
or Skydash Collection (because of provenance) would add a little bit for me.

.

[packs]

Means nothing to me. I'll buy a card from anyone if I want it, therefore I'm not too interested in who had it first.

[Casey2296]

_

I like having pedigree from the old school collectors, Carter, Nagy, Pollard, etc.
_

[clamendo]

I posted on this last year. I think it’s very difficult today to prove where the cards came from. I was able to obtain a pedigree on a football lot from the Copeland Collection. He had a thirst for high grade and the Soethby’s auction of his collection spawned grading, sports memorabilia auctions, spending big money on cards, etc. About 50% of the comments people cared and 50% didn’t (so they say). I know the history of the Wagner (from this auction), but to have all 250 cards pass through the gauntlet (giving the much stricter grading, computer scanning, etc) and have everyone come back with a numerical grade is something. The grades varied but the run of Kahn’s probably averaged 6.5. I’ve been thinking about merging my Kahn’s cards with Copeland’s, if it’s a tie I’ll keep his. It’s a tough decision. ‘59,’61,’62’63’ and ‘64K If anyone is interested shoot me a PM.






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[raulus]

My take is it depends on the provenance.

If it’s coming from my collection, it’s hard to imagine anyone cares. And might be a negative for some people. If it’s coming out of a famous collection, particularly one that isn’t viewed as infamous (like BSF), then it’s probably just a question of how much it helps. My guess is that in many cases, the premium is probably not gigantic, but does exist for the right provenance.

[BeanTown]

Love all the examples folks have posted so far. I forgot how many “relevant” old time collectors we have. I completely agree with most, that if the collector/player is well known it helps somewhat.

Haven’t seen any David Hall T206 cards posted yet. Curious if T206 collectors put a premium on his stuff.

[Fred]

I think I have a few from the Lionel Carter collection but I'm still holding out for the elusive "Leon Luckey Collection" flips. Probably not much chance of me getting a McNall/Gretzky flip.

[JollyElm]

For me, just having Whitey Ford cards that "The Chairman of the Board" (and my fellow Astoria home-towner) actually owned/touched would be frickin' cool.

[Exhibitman]

I voted for it simply because there are pedigrees that matter. I know I have paid a little extra for something from a famous collector's collection.



I'd like to get the pedigree on the holder some day.

It's Burdick, in case you didn't know.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I just bought this. I don't even know what the Texan Collection is lol.

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I voted for it simply because there are pedigrees that matter. I know I have paid a little extra for something from a famous collector's collection.



I'd like to get the pedigree on the holder some day.

It's Burdick, in case you didn't know.

That’s way cool. The majority of his collection is in the Met.

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I just bought this. I don't even know what the Texan Collection is lol.

Hahahaha. Now that’s funny. Leon, is there something we should know?

[Leon]

"Holder Schmolder" on that one. His stamp is on it... Us collectors know...

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I voted for it simply because there are pedigrees that matter. I know I have paid a little extra for something from a famous collector's collection.



I'd like to get the pedigree on the holder some day.

It's Burdick, in case you didn't know.

.

[irv]

I also have one with no idea who Dan Fox is or was?
I did some research thinking I'd likely find something, but IIRC, I came up blank?

[G1911]

I can see how it might be cool for the Fords or Williams above, when it is from the players estate or similar and is a connection to the player. For a player collector, that makes some sense to me.

Another collector, I tend to find a little silly. I don't care who owned a card before I did and I can't understand why I should. I throw the slip away when I get these holders and the 'provenance' is destroyed. That Collector X, Y or Z owned Card 1 before I did doesn't impact card 1 at all, it is either authentic or not and is in the condition that it is in. It is not more or less because of which of us dorks owned it.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

I think it is pretty cool and for memorabilia it might help especially with real collectors but for most people and for flippers I do not think it matters

For memorabilia (GU jerseys, specifically) when I see Barry Halper's name attached, it makes me tread very carefully.

[clamendo]

Originally Posted by G1911

I can see how it might be cool for the Fords or Williams above, when it is from the players estate or similar and is a connection to the player. For a player collector, that makes some sense to me.

Another collector, I tend to find a little silly. I don't care who owned a card before I did and I can't understand why I should. I throw the slip away when I get these holders and the 'provenance' is destroyed. That Collector X, Y or Z owned Card 1 before I did doesn't impact card 1 at all, it is either authentic or not and is in the condition that it is in. It is not more or less because of which of us dorks owned it.

Some of these other old-time advanced collectors were putting high grade sets together 40-60 years ago. There wasn’t a lot of money being thrown around, so to get it from one of them (and you can prove it) means there’s less of a chance that it’s been altered. Even cards that are in holders have slipped through PSA, SGC and others. It’s always nice to get the cards from an original owner. With today’s technology they can slip through grading companies as has been mentioned numerous times on this forum.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by clamendo

Some of these other old-time advanced collectors were putting high grade sets together 40-60 years ago. There wasn’t a lot of money being thrown around, so to get it from one of them (and you can prove it) means there’s less of a chance that it’s been altered. Even cards that are in holders have slipped through PSA, SGC and others. It’s always nice to get the cards from an original owner. With today’s technology they can slip through grading companies as has been mentioned numerous times on this forum.


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The possible flaw I see in your logic is that you're assuming whoever acquired the collections and then submitted them didn't alter them. Do we really trust Doug Allen not to have touched any of Lionel Carter's cards, for example?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by clamendo

Some of these other old-time advanced collectors were putting high grade sets together 40-60 years ago. There wasn’t a lot of money being thrown around, so to get it from one of them (and you can prove it) means there’s less of a chance that it’s been altered. Even cards that are in holders have slipped through PSA, SGC and others. It’s always nice to get the cards from an original owner. With today’s technology they can slip through grading companies as has been mentioned numerous times on this forum.


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The card is either altered or unaltered; one owner not known to have altered cards in its history does not mean the card is unaltered. A determination should be made on evidentiary grounds of fact and examination of the card, not based on authority of what is usually not the cards only owner.

Cracking the card and actually being able to examine it does a lot more to determine if it is altered than looking at a name on the slab.

[BeanTown]

Back in the late 90s I bought an Old Judge card from Terry Knouse (TIK) and Hi Terry if you are reading, at the National. I wanted to try this new thing out called grading and walked it over to PSA to take advantage of a 10.00 show special. They said it had been trimmed, even though it measured up. I went back to Terry with the card and he walked the card back to PSA and informed them all Old Judges were hand collated and it’s needs to be graded. They said, yes sir you are right and proceeded to grade it. I think they referred to him on 19th century items back then.

Anyways, I agree if pedigree comes from a players family it’s better than just being out of a collectors collection. With that said, if I knew the collector, I wouldn’t mind having it as a cool little keepsake.

[atx840]

I think it can help.

[Exhibitman]

I think it is interesting to see the history of the ownership of a d piece. Like I have one card that went from Tik and Tik to Chad Dreier to me. I see that as a selling point.

[Jay Wolt]

I've had these for awhile about a dozen of them, Gary Carter's childhood football cards w/ his name on the back

[vthobby]

I traded letters with Lionel Carter many years ago.

I enjoy seeing his cards in SGC holders. Nice Chase Chris!

Wow!

[DeanH3]

I think it certainly helps, especially from a pioneer. Some really nice examples posted thus far. My one and only.

[parkplace33]

Beyond over rated. The card/item is the only thing that matters.

[Exhibitman]

Provenance increases the collectibility of items in every collectibles field, cards included. The proof is in the responses here: about half of the posters consider it a plus and presumably paid up to get it. It is akin to an autograph. Knowing that the person owned the item and presumably handled it adds a dimension to the story of the item. Judged on its merits, the Wagner is just another trimmed card in a PSA 8 holder, but add Gretzky-McNall, et al, and the story is a lot more compelling.

[clamendo]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Provenance increases the collectibility of items in every collectibles field, cards included. The proof is in the responses here: about half of the posters consider it a plus and presumably paid up to get it. It is akin to an autograph. Knowing that the person owned the item and presumably handled it adds a dimension to the story of the item. Judged on its merits, the Wagner is just another trimmed card in a PSA 8 holder, but add Gretzky-McNall, et al, and the story is a lot more compelling.

I agree. Here’s a short video where Marshall Fogel explains the Sotheby’s auction of the Copeland collection (@ the 3min 50 sec mark) where the Wagner was sold. Lots of excitement. It was a watershed event for the Sports Memorabilia hobby. Going after high grade, third party authentication, dedicated sports auctions.

https://youtu.be/eWgcyOxSnHk

BTW - It ain’t easy to get a pedigree, especially now. So you better have great backup and it better be something significant.


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[atx840]

Originally Posted by vthobby

I traded letters with Lionel Carter many years ago.

Very cool.

I have a pic of it in his binder

[steve B]

It's important in other hobbies just to different degrees. Super important in some, not as much in others.

To me it matters depending on exactly who had it before.
For example, I have a couple stamps from FDRs collection - he was a collector, involved in choosing the designs for stamps while president, but somewhat oddly, didn't have many really valuable items.

I have a few other things from great collections, and they can be fun. Most big collections had a load of cheap things alongside the nicer ones.

I don't have cards with a provenance, but if I had a choice between one with and one without and they were equal I'd take the one with.

[Beercan collector]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's important in other hobbies just to different degrees. Super important in some, not as much in others.

To me it matters depending on exactly who had it before.
For example, I have a couple stamps from FDRs collection - he was a collector, involved in choosing the designs for stamps while president, but somewhat oddly, didn't have many really valuable items.

I have a few other things from great collections, and they can be fun. Most big collections had a load of cheap things alongside the nicer ones.

I don't have cards with a provenance, but if I had a choice between one with and one without and they were equal I'd take the one with.

Yep we do it in beer cans - it’s nice to have a piece of an friend’s collection who is no longer around

[Lobo Aullando]

None of my PSA slabs have a provenance designation. I just made a note to myself, and if/when it's time for a new owner, they can check the AH archive.

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Haven’t seen any David Hall T206 cards posted yet. Curious if T206 collectors put a premium on his stuff.

[clamendo]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's important in other hobbies just to different degrees. Super important in some, not as much in others.

To me it matters depending on exactly who had it before.
For example, I have a couple stamps from FDRs collection - he was a collector, involved in choosing the designs for stamps while president, but somewhat oddly, didn't have many really valuable items.

I have a few other things from great collections, and they can be fun. Most big collections had a load of cheap things alongside the nicer ones.

I don't have cards with a provenance, but if I had a choice between one with and one without and they were equal I'd take the one with.

It’s a real big deal in coins. However, what’s interesting that neither PCGS or PSA capture the pedigree in their database. From what I heard Joe Orlando brought this up with the Black Swamp find, but there was no way to do it. I wanted to register my pedigreed cards, but couldn’t distinguish them as such (except in the set title). They give bonus points for being the highest or tied for the highest grade. If it’s deemed important enough to pedigree, why not give a slight kicker (10%?). Seems like a simple matter of programming.

The auction companies definitely highlight it. Look at the Mr. Mint Mantle 9.5. If anything brought a lot of extra attention to the auction.

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by clamendo

It’s a real big deal in coins. However, what’s interesting that neither PCGS or PSA capture the pedigree in their database. From what I heard Joe Orlando brought this up with the Black Swamp find, but there was no way to do it. I wanted to register my pedigreed cards, but couldn’t distinguish them as such (except in the set title). They give bonus points for being the highest or tied for the highest grade. If it’s deemed important enough to pedigree, why not give a slight kicker (10%?). Seems like a simple matter of programming.

The auction companies definitely highlight it. Look at the Mr. Mint Mantle 9.5. If anything brought a lot of extra attention to the auction.

That’s a great point and didn’t realize most TPGs weren’t able to do that.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

Yep we do it in beer cans - it’s nice to have a piece of an friend’s collection who is no longer around

That's really cool!

I've never seen that, but then, I haven't actively collected since maybe the late 80's, with the exception of splitting a collection with a friend who bought a bunch. Mostly inexpensive 70's- 80's stuff.
And I didn't really pick up anything great back then.

[todeen]

I know when Hankphenom is selling on this site I always take a peek!

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[GasHouseGang]

I was happy to pick up these with the Lionel Carter provenance.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Love my Lionel Carter cards. I'll never part with this beat to hell Chase E98. I'll upgrade him in my set, but I'll be keeping this one.

I used to have an E78 from Nagy's collection and sold it a few years ago and regret it still. Eventually I'll pick up another Nagy, but that was a cool card from a tough set.



.

[pokerplyr80]

I did not read all of the responses, but it seems it just depends on the collection it came from. I doubt it would ever hurt the value, unless the source later turned out to be I evolved in some kind of fraud. If I see something like Lionel Carter, or owned by Mantle, I will bid a little more.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I did not read all of the responses, but it seems it just depends on the collection it came from. I doubt it would ever hurt the value, unless the source later turned out to be I evolved in some kind of fraud. If I see something like Lionel Carter, or owned by Mantle, I will bid a little more.

I agree with Jesse here. Certain names, I think, increase the desirability of the card and the price. There only needs to be some people willing to pay more for the Carter card and the price goes up. There are a ton of collectors who could care less about the pedigree being called out on the flip, but there are enough who do care that the prices reflect that intrerest.




.

[GasHouseGang]

I wonder if we could put together a virtual T206 set of Lionel Carter cards? I'm assuming there was a whole set at one point. It might be fun to start a thread and give it a try.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I wonder if we could put together a virtual T206 set of Lionel Carter cards? I'm assuming there was a whole set at one point.

Yes there was, Joe Yanello won it via auction several years ago & broke it up soon after

Here's one of the Cobb's