Leland's Idea of a Complete T206 Set

[Rhotchkiss]

I normally don't call out auction houses, but I inquired about this Tuesday at noon and I have not gotten a satisfactory or accurate response. So in the absence of a timely and acceptable response, I feel justified in advising the forum of what I believe is an incorrect Lot description.

Lot #4 in Leland's Mint Auction (banner immediately above and link below) boasts a "T206 Baseball Card Complete Set Minus Honus Wagner" and in the description describes the Lot as "near set offered here is missing only the elusive Honus Wagner rarity for completion. Coming in at 523 cards....." https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=107787

I saw that and thought - Wow, they are selling a Joe Doyle NY Nat'l (which would be even more crazy since there are only 9 and Mile High is soon selling one). However, in reading the description, I see no reference to the Doyle. So, I emailed their info email and asked if there is a Doyle, and if not, what is the 523rd card?

The response: "The Doyle is not normally considered part of the set of 524."

I replied that I disagreed, pointing out that the PSA registry includes the Doyle in its complete 524 set registry and the hobby widely regards a complete set as 520, but a totally complete set to include the "Big 4": Wagner, Doyle NY Nat'l, Plank, Magie error. I again inquired that if there is no Doyle, what do they consider the 523rd card. I was told Wednesday morning (after I already sent a follow up reminder email) that the query had been passed on to their card expert, and I have heard nothing since. I wouldn't think getting to the bottom of a 524-card T206 set would take 2+ days for a card expert to figure out, especially with the wide assortment of authorities on the internet (see links below)

The hobby has long regarded a complete 524 T206 set to be the base 520 and the Big 4: Wagner, Doyle NY Nat'l, Plank, Magie Error. Below are a number of articles and checklists that include Doyle as part of the 524 set; this is just a sample, as there are many more on the internet. I found no other source, other than Lelands, that claimed the set to be 524 cards, without one of those cards being the Doyle.

So, apparently Lelands beats to its own drum (no pun intended) when defining a complete 524-card T206 set, a drum that differs from every other authority, yet its not clear what that 523rd card is if its not the Doyle NY Nat'l. Those of you looking at Leland's "T206 Baseball Card Complete Set Minus Honus Wagner", just be advised that you will get 522 normal cards and something else, which is not the Doyle NY Nat'l.

As an aside, its very nice set and a great thing to own. Its just not a 523 set, fact.

https://prewarcards.com/2017/01/06/t...cobb-back/amp/

https://prewarcards.com/2018/10/24/t...tobacco-cards/

https://www.psacard.com/psasetregist.../t206-sets/215

https://www.t206.org

https://www.cardboardconnection.com/...ball-cards/amp

Checklists

https://www.t206.org/dl/T206-Checklist.pdf

https://t206resource.com/Check%20List%20524.html

http://www.t206museum.com/page/ch_reglt.html

https://t206guide.com/T206.pdf

Ryan Hotchkiss

[Jcosta19]

I'm guessing they are counting the Snodgrass error (which I admittedly don't know anything about). I'm basing my guess on the fact that they have it pictured along side the Magee error and the Plank and a red Cobb twice in the first 2 pictures of the listing.

But you are correct that doesn't make 523 by everyone else's standards. (but you already knew that)

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[Bpm0014]

The nodgrass “error” is not part of a 524 card set. So technically they shouldn’t even include that…

[mrreality68]

Wow good catch

I was thinking it only excluded the Wagner.

How could they have thought the Doyle is not included as part of the 523.

Odd indeed

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Jcosta19

I'm guessing they are counting the Snodgrass error (which I admittedly don't know anything about). I'm basing my guess on the fact that they have it pictured along side the Magee error and the Plank and a red Cobb twice in the first 2 pictures of the listing.

But you are correct that doesn't make 523 by everyone else's standards. (but you already knew that)

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

Ah, good call. So "nodgrass" is the 523rd card. Thus, Leland's "Big 4" are: Wagner, Plank, Magie error and nodgrass..... OK

Personally, I would put the Marquard with red 8 or the Murr'y error in there as "525" as quickly as the nodgrass.

Leland's FYI, to quote yourself.... The [nodgrass] is not normally (hell it never has been) considered part of the set of 524.

[Carter08]

Do the cards come with the leaves in the picture? I hope so.

[chriskim]

My initial reaction to this Leland lot was missing both Wagner and Doyle Nat'l regardless. NO way an auction house would be that dumb to include both Wagner and Doyle Nat'l in the same lot.

no offense, but it seems like no one would care as much as someone already has a Doyle Nat'l.

[drcy]

I just assumed it wouldn't include the Doyle

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by chriskim

no offense, but it seems like no one would care as much as someone already has a Doyle Nat'l.

100%!! No offense taken. You are right on. I am likely more sensitive bc I have the Doyle, no doubt - someone mentions (or goes to sell) 523 missing only Wagner and my ears perk up.

It doesn't change the fact that its not a 523-card T206 set.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's a list of T206 errors from Lemke's 2006 guide. He points out that Doyle and Magie are part of the set. This list is incomplete, but these are printing errors, as opposed to design errors. Here's my "low red" Bill Sweeney, grouped with "nodgrass".

[atx840]

All around awful representation of the set being sold. Why show the Nodgrass but hide the grade on the Cobb. It's a PSA 7!

I would have pulled it out and sold it separately with a sub Cobb in its place.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

........Lot #4 in Leland's Mint Auction (banner immediately above and link below) boasts a "T206 Baseball Card Complete Set Minus Honus Wagner" and in the description describes the Lot as "near set offered here is missing only the elusive Honus Wagner rarity for completion. Coming in at 523 cards....." https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=107787

I saw that and thought - Wow, they are selling a Joe Doyle NY Nat'l (which would be even more crazy since there are only 9 and Mile High is soon selling one). However, in reading the description, I see no reference to the Doyle. So, I emailed their info email and asked if there is a Doyle, and if not, what is the 523rd card?

The response: "The Doyle is not normally considered part of the set of 524.

Ryan Hotchkiss

Lelands response is absolutely unprofessional (or just ignorance). Most of us in this hobby know the Larry Fritsch story regarding the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card (circa mid-1980's).

Furthermore, some of us are aware of Senator Richard Russell's original T206 collection which is on display at the Univ. of Georgia that includes the 1st known Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L
card. Refer to...... https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...=237816&page=1 .... (Posts #33 & 34).

I've done a lot of research on this card over the years. Including examining 4 of these Joe Doyle cards to confirm whether they were authentic (or not).

So, kudos to you for taking Lelands to task on this situation.


Take care my good friend,

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Casey2296]

I'm an E-card guy and even I know what constitutes 520 and 524. For such a significant offering it's just bad form.

[Sean]

Hey Ted, can you explain something? I always heard that Larry Fritch found the first Doyle Nat'l in 1980, but he didn't tell anyone until the second showed up in 1986. Was the Russell Doyle known in the '80s? Or was it only noticed after the second Doyle was auctioned?

[chriskim]

Lelands won't even bother to provide any high resolution pictures of a potential $300K to $400K set. I was trying to zoom in to check whether that Nodgrass variation was legit or not but I can't even see the name clear enough.....

what a joke!

[trambo]

I looked through the set and as was said, the nodgrass was their 523. I was disappointed to see it wasn't a real 523. Still a good set but would love to have seen the Doyle there!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Sean

Hey Ted, can you explain something? I always heard that Larry Fritch found the first Doyle Nat'l in 1980, but he didn't tell anyone until the second showed up in 1986. Was the Russell Doyle known in the '80s? Or was it only noticed after the second Doyle was auctioned?

Sean

Senator Richard Russell passed away in 1971. As a 13 year old kid (1910), he collected T206's in his hometown of Winder, Georgia. He would pull T206's from PIEDMONT packs.
His political documents and his sportscards collection (T206's, T210's and T205's) were donated to his Alma Mater (Univ. of Georgia) circa 1973. However, his BB card collection
was not available for public viewing until the early 1980's.

I'm not certain if anyone in the hobby back then was aware of Russell's Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card....or his red Cobb card with a "Ty Cobb" back



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[MVSNYC]

Ryan, when you're ready to take your set to 525, I have the first authentic Nodgrass that PSA ever graded...I kid, I kid (but I do own the Nodgrass)

I mean, ever since I started collecting T206, 30 years ago, the known complete set number was always (will always be) 524 (it's well known, that we don't include printing variations in that number). The big 4: Wags, Doyle, Plank, Magie. Hopefully if they see your thread, they'll make the proper updates to the lot title and description.

Lot Title should read- "Near Complete T206 Set, Missing Wagner & Doyle. 522/524 cards, plus Nodgrass variation"

[Michael B]

Unfortunately, in this hobby/industry many of the self proclaimed / self important experts take the Senator Charles Meacham (Ned Beatty) attitude - 'The truth is what I say it is'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlEo8PQChG4

[pawpawdiv9]

i would of like seeing this sold as "separate listings" & also sold as the group and whichever is highest its sold....so people like me maybe can afford a low-grade Plank or Magie error.
I would sell all or most of my whole collection to get a nice Plank like that.

[Yoda]

AH's must be so careful with their descriptions these days so as not to present their consignors' lots in any way inaccurate. Otherwise, they open themselves up to charges of misrepresentation, which is fraud.
Lelands has been around for a long time and they should no better. Their lack of response to your great outing coupled with your outstanding knowledge of the T206 set may make things very uncomfortable for them. I hope so. Of course, Doyle Nat'l should be the 523rd card.
Ted, do you remember when Alan Rosen sold Keith Olberman a Dole that had been badly altered but graded by a forerunner SGC. There was such a stink. You can imagine Keith and Alan going at each other. I never found out how it was all settled.

[txaggie00]

Hey Ryan,

Thanks for sharing your experience in researching this with Lelands. I had the same thought about the set being represented as 523 with no Doyle. I wasn't really surprised to find that Doyle wasn't included but it bothered me that they would deviate from the standard definition of a complete set of 524.

Their poor/lack of responses to your inquiries is disappointing and turns me off of doing any business with them.

[chriskim]

My thought is Lelands will clarify it once it hits the reserve. They are still fishing open bids on some of their lots that have $250K starting bid.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by chriskim

My thought is Lelands will clarify it once it hits the reserve. They are still fishing open bids on some of their lots that have $250K starting bid.

You would think (1) Lelands would not have gotten something as fundamental as the definition of a complete T206 set wrong in the first place, or (2) they would have corrected it within 5 days of my email pointing it out, or (3) They would have corrected it as a result of this thread, and I know they read this board. But they have not.

Also, having looked at the Lot again, aside from wrongly describing the set as a complete 523-set missing only the Wagner, I think they have done their consignor a total disservice. They 100% should be selling the PSA 7 Cobb on its own (grade hidden in the pic) -- that is a $50k+ card that many wont bid on bc they dont want to buy a 522-card set + nodgrass to get to a PSA 7 Cobb. Same with the Plank, Magie, and, if they think the nodgrass is so special, that one too (among others).

Anyway, enough from me on this. I just wanted to point this out (yes, likely because I own a Doyle!!). Its a nice auction and I wish luck to all involved.

[3-2-count]

I too am surprised to see this set not broken up into smaller groups and the big cards such as Plank and the Psa 7 Cobb listed individually.

Although there is a reserve to protect the consignor, its my opinion that this set would garner more if it were broken up.

It looks impressive as one lot, but if its about getting the most for the consignor selling it this way won’t achieve that.

[AddieJoss]

How is lot #26 have no bids, the starting bid is $10k as in the description, but the bid is $50k? Also, the estimate is 300k-400k for 2 fight tickets with no date or fight card yet?

[obcjoe]

Dumb Question: Is there a regular Snodgrass in the lot as it is not 523 unless that card is included, just saying.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by obcjoe

Dumb Question: Is there a regular Snodgrass in the lot as it is not 523 unless that card is included, just saying.

Yes

[BRoberts]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

How is lot #26 have no bids, the starting bid is $10k as in the description, but the bid is $50k? Also, the estimate is 300k-400k for 2 fight tickets with no date or fight card yet?

It's Leland's, that's how.

[Bridwell]

I agree, Ryan. Odd that they ignore the Doyle card entirely, as if it is not part of a set, but emphasize the Nodgrass! Interesting that the bidding is over $200,000 already (with buyer premium). Only 3 PSA cards, and most of the set is un-graded. The condition varies widely from Auth cards to a couple NMT. Maybe 100 cards are Ex or better out of 523. The Southern Leaguers seem to be quite nice, though.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Yoda

AH's must be so careful with their descriptions these days so as not to present their consignors' lots in any way inaccurate. Otherwise, they open themselves up to charges of misrepresentation, which is fraud.
Lelands has been around for a long time and they should no better. Their lack of response to your great outing coupled with your outstanding knowledge of the T206 set may make things very uncomfortable for them. I hope so. Of course, Doyle Nat'l should be the 523rd card.

Ted, do you remember when Alan Rosen sold Keith Olberman a Dole that had been badly altered but graded by a forerunner SGC. There was such a stink. You can imagine Keith and Alan going at each other. I never found out how it was all settled.

Hi John

That occurred 30+ years ago, so let me see what I can recall: After some serious debate, Rosen took back the fake Doyle card. Olberman eventually acquired an authentic one.

About that same time 30+ years ago, Joe Pelaez also purchased a fake Doyle card. He was livid when he was made aware of this. And this resulted in tracking down the culprit,
who was quite professionally adding the "Nat'L" lettering on the captions of regular Joe Doyle cards.
However, as good as he was with his "artwork", he made a subtle minor mistake by raising the ' above the top line of the lettering of Nat'L.....which exposed it being a FAKE.

Joe eventually acquired an authentic Doyle from Lipset.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_5.html

More background on the Rosen/Olbermann Doyle. It looks like it was in or around 2000.

[tedzan]

I was at that Show in the Philadelphia Convention Center. It was in the early 1990's. I remember well when Rosen acquired that fake Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card that weekend.
And, knowing Alan for many years, I know he would not have held onto to it for any length of time.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I was at that Show in the Philadelphia Convention Center. It was in the early 1990's. I remember well when Rosen acquired that fake Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card that weekend.
And, knowing Alan for many years, I know he would not have held onto to it for any length of time.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I don't believe SGC existed in the early 1990s, Ted. And the article which is dated 2000 mentions a 1999 auction being where Keith acquired it.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't believe SGC existed in the early 1990s, Ted. And the article which is dated 2000 mentions a 1999 auction being where Keith acquired it.

Hi Peter

I have my timeline wrong, that Doyle transaction between Alan and Keith occurred in the late 1990's. I got mixed up with the Joe Pelaez fake Doyle that did occur in the early 1990's.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted was it the same doctor on both cards, if you know?

[tedzan]

No, Peter.....I never got to see this particular Doyle fake card (Alan/Keith).

I did get to see 2 of the early 1990's fake Doyle cards. Unless you had an authentic one to make an A - B comparison,
you could be easily deceived into thinking they were authentic. The "doctoring" was that good.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tedzan

No, Peter.....I never got to see this particular Doyle fake card (Alan/Keith).

I did get to see 2 of the early 1990's fake Doyle cards. Unless you had an authentic one to make an A - B comparison,
you could be easily deceived into thinking they were authentic. The "doctoring" was that good.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

If I recall correctly at least one got by PSA, I think Don Spence owned it, and perhaps it was more.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I recall correctly at least one got by PSA, I think Don Spence owned it, and perhaps it was more.

The Doyle that you are alluding to was an obvious fake.....as it had a POLAR BEAR back.

The NINE known authentic Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards are all PIEDMONT 350 cards.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Does anyone have an image of the Polar Bear Doyle ?

We know for sure that SGC graded the fake that Rosen sold to Olbermann.

There's a fake PSA 1 Piedmont that is supposedly in a fake holder with a legitimate cert number in this thread

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=112812

There are several regular Doyle's that have PSA label errors.

[MVSNYC]

Patrick, what are the labeling errors on those three?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Patrick, what are the labeling errors on those three?

I posted the wrong scans Michael there are a few regular Doyle's in PSA holders
that have N.Y. NAT'L on the label I'll try and find them.

[prestigecollectibles]

I contacted Lelands and they updated the lot title and description.
https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=107787

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

See Ryan, it just took someone with a little clout

[chriskim]

May be someone sent this video to Lelands and Lelands updated the page. Not sure whether Lelands will sue them after they updated the page.

REA still the best AH out there having correct auction title/description in t206 lots.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45D9NdEIKY8

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

See Ryan, it just took someone with a little clout

I am glad they changed it. But a few things:

1. They never responded to me again (real classy - guess I aint got no clout, but I do have this forum and a keyboard)
2. I am convinced they would not have changed the description had we not made a stink; and
3. I assume they knew it was not a 523 set because they are purportedly an expert AH and every other authority on the planet knows Joe Doyle Nat'l is part of a complete set (Nodgrass is not)

[chriskim]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am glad they changed it. But a few things:

1. They never responded to me again (real classy - guess I aint got no clout, but I do have this forum and a keyboard)
2. I am convinced they would not have changed the description had we not made a stink; and
3. I assume they knew it was not a 523 set because they are purportedly an expert AH and every other authority on the planet knows Joe Doyle Nat'l is part of a complete set (Nodgrass is not)

Lelands probably waiting for the call back from Bill Mastro to see whether Doyle Nat'l should be part of t206 set, and they haven't heard anything back.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am glad they changed it. But a few things:

1. They never responded to me again (real classy - guess I aint got no clout, but I do have this forum and a keyboard)
2. I am convinced they would not have changed the description had we not made a stink; and
3. I assume they knew it was not a 523 set because they are purportedly an expert AH and every other authority on the planet knows Joe Doyle Nat'l is part of a complete set (Nodgrass is not)

You know I was just joking right? I'm 100% with you on this.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

You know I was just joking right? I'm 100% with you on this.

100%+. I laughed. But it’s true, I have no clout. Especially with Leland’s - I don’t think I have ever bought anything from them and I have never consigned to them

[mrreality68]

Funny and interesting thread at the same time.