Baseball HOFers possible question?

[homerunhitter]

Hello
When it comes to obtaining baseball HOFer autographs, who many of the 333 current HOFers are possible on all mediums. I thought I’ve seen some collections with upwards of around 240-250? I know no one will have a “complete” run but what’s the most possible out there? Thanks

[homerunhitter]

Any help with this? Thanks

[r2678]

Instead of asking who's possible, a better question may be who isn't possible.

[Seven]

I'd think collecting some of the guys that played in the Negro Leagues that have been elected would be very difficult, if not borderline impossible. Guys like Josh Gibson, Mule Stuttles, Oscar Charleston.

[mr2686]

This might help a little:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=212572

[redalpha7]

There is information here on impossible BBHOF autographs

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=156413

[homerunhitter]

Thank you guys! I appreciate your help very much! Just what I was looking for!

[theshleps]

A friend submitted some cuts to PSA and Kevin Keating said the Welch was good and it was slabbed then. How rare is he? Does anyone else here have one and what would you price it at. He posted a scan of it on another thread (tha-rock)
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=278852

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by theshleps

A friend submitted some cuts to PSA and Kevin Keating said the Welch was good and it was slabbed then. How rare is he? Does anyone else here have one and what would you price it at. He posted a scan of it on another thread (tha-rock)
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=278852

A similar low grade cut sold for $2,400 last year. He is tough, around 5-10 out there.

[mrmopar]

Went back and read both of the linked threads. Some great information there for the curious, like me, who want to know but will never be a player for anything rare that those guys mentioned.

I recall as a kid being fascinated about the story describing the death of Ed Delahanty. I don't recall exactly where I saw it at that time, could have even been an old scholastic book about old time baseball players, but there was that detail of the story of him being put off a train and disappearing into the night on a bridge crossing the Niagra, never to be seen alive again.

Having died young and unexpectedly in 1903, I never researched it but would have thought his name would have come up at some point, but nada in either thread. Apparently he was available enough to avoid being on the top of the list.

[Klrdds]

Delahanty is a top 15 hardest to find autograph and readily forged.
But not at the top.

[Cooptown]

I remember following these old threads. At the time I was trying to get any HOFer, on any medium. Like anything, interests change, and I wanted my collection on HOF logo baseballs. If that wasn't attainable, I am hoping for the regular Rawlings OMLB.

I sort of lost count over the years, but this thread made me go back and want to look. Looks like I just crossed the 100 mark with 103 autographs of Hall of Famers. I know it pales to some collections on here, but nice to know I crossed the 100 mark!

[Wrightfan85]

Frank Grant is the only hall of famer with no known auto despite living until his 70's.

[JRS123490]

From my Hall of Fame excel and from numerous sources, books and research on my own, here is a list of about 60 guys you'd be hard pressed to find on any item. A very small few have a relatively decent amount of authentic examples (Cap Anson probably having the most of all the below names,) but when most surface (if at all,) they go for thousands upon thousands of dollars. It's safe to say that 99% of all Hall of Fame collectors will never own authentic signatures of the below guys. When I say no known examples in the open market exist, this is not including documents held by government archives (which will never be for sale.) It includes items that are known to be in private collections, or have been offered for sale at one point in time.

As mentioned, Frank Grant has no known signature example in either a government archive, or in the open market.

Addie Joss
Al Spalding
Alex Pompez
Alexander Cartwright
Amos Rusie
Andy Cooper - No known examples in open market exist.
Ben Taylor
Bid McPhee
Billy Hamilton
Biz Mackey
Buck Ewing
Bullet Rogan - No known examples in open market exist.
Candy Cummings
Cap Anson
Cristobal Torriente
Cum Posey
Dan Brouthers
Deacon White
Ed Delahanty
Eddie Plank
Frank Chance
Frank Grant - No known examples in open market exist.
Frank Selee
George Davis
George Wright
Hank O'Day
Harry Wright
Henry Chadwick
Hughie Jennings
J.L. Wilkinson
Jack Chesbro
Jake Beckley
Jim O'Rourke
Jimmy Collins
Joe Kelley
Joe McGinnity
John Clarkson - No known examples in open market exist.
John Ward
Jose Mendez - No known examples in open market exist.
Josh Gibson
Jud Wilson - 1 known example in open market exists
King Kelly - 1 known example in open market exists
Louis Santop
Mickey Welch
Mule Suttles - No known examples in open market exist.
Ned Hanlon
Old Hoss Radbourn - No known examples in open market exist.
Oscar Charleston
Pete Hill - No known examples in open market exist.
Pop Lloyd
Pud Galvin
Ray Brown
Roger Connor
Ross Youngs
Rube Foster
Rube Waddell - 1 known example in open market exists. This will be disputed by many, as third party authentication companies have passed at least 4-5 that I know of.
Sam Thompson - 1 known example in open market exists
Smokey Joe Williams - No known examples in open market exist
Sol White
Tim Keefe
Vic Willis
Willie Keeler

[theshleps]

Originally Posted by JRS123490

From my Hall of Fame excel and from numerous sources, books and research on my own, here is a list of about 60 guys you'd be hard pressed to find on any item. A very small few have a relatively decent amount of authentic examples (Cap Anson probably having the most of all the below names,) but when most surface (if at all,) they go for thousands upon thousands of dollars. It's safe to say that 99% of all Hall of Fame collectors will never own authentic signatures of the below guys. When I say no known examples in the open market exist, this is not including documents held by government archives (which will never be for sale.) It includes items that are known to be in private collections, or have been offered for sale at one point in time.

As mentioned, Frank Grant has no known signature example in either a government archive, or in the open market.

Addie Joss
Al Spalding
Alex Pompez
Alexander Cartwright
Amos Rusie
Andy Cooper - No known examples in open market exist.
Ben Taylor
Bid McPhee
Billy Hamilton
Biz Mackey
Buck Ewing
Bullet Rogan - No known examples in open market exist.
Candy Cummings
Cap Anson
Cristobal Torriente
Cum Posey
Dan Brouthers
Deacon White
Ed Delahanty
Eddie Plank
Frank Chance
Frank Grant - No known examples in open market exist.
Frank Selee
George Davis
George Wright
Hank O'Day
Harry Wright
Henry Chadwick
Hughie Jennings
J.L. Wilkinson
Jack Chesbro
Jake Beckley
Jim O'Rourke
Jimmy Collins
Joe Kelley
Joe McGinnity
John Clarkson - No known examples in open market exist.
John Ward
Jose Mendez - No known examples in open market exist.
Josh Gibson
Jud Wilson - 1 known example in open market exists
King Kelly - 1 known example in open market exists
Louis Santop
Mickey Welch
Mule Suttles - No known examples in open market exist.
Ned Hanlon
Old Hoss Radbourn - No known examples in open market exist.
Oscar Charleston
Pete Hill - No known examples in open market exist.
Pop Lloyd
Pud Galvin
Ray Brown
Roger Connor
Ross Youngs
Rube Foster
Rube Waddell - 1 known example in open market exists. This will be disputed by many, as third party authentication companies have passed at least 4-5 that I know of.
Sam Thompson - 1 known example in open market exists
Smokey Joe Williams - No known examples in open market exist
Sol White
Tim Keefe
Vic Willis
Willie Keeler

I volded the ones I have above but basically you printed my wantlist. I might have everyone else or may need 1 or 2 others

[keithsky]

You say all these are scarce. By golly if you go to coach's corner every month most of these are in the monthly auction. Lol

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by JRS123490

here is a list of about 60 guys you'd be hard pressed to find on any item.It's safe to say that 99% of all Hall of Fame collectors will never own authentic signatures of the below guys.

While I agree that all your list is in the $1000+ range, you are selling yourself short. I am far from "rich" but have been able to acquire 15 (25%) of your list. You are relying too much on Ron's good, but not perfect, book. Plus there is A LOT of dispute regarding Negro League autographs (right Klrdds?). I actually once owned the Pop Lloyd example (a cut) from Ron's book. However, PSA failed it-so who is right PSA or Ron?

Additionally, I have seen several good Rube Waddells and King Kelleys and own one of three Sam Thompson autographs. I believe one of the King Kelley's will be coming to auction later this year.

Finally I would add Effa Manley and Jesse Burkett to your list. A real one probably will cost you more than Cap Anson.

Good luck!

[r2678]

As a Cleveland fan, I have an interest in Addie Joss. I thought he was unknown .

[Klrdds]

For 22 years I owned the only verifiable Addie Joss autograph. It is pictured in Ron’s book . I bought it as a part of a deal to purchase Napoleon Lajoie’s son’s autograph book from the early 1900s in 1995 with 2 other well known collectors at auction. It still remains his only known unquestioned autograph.

[Klrdds]

Taz you are absolutely correct in all your statements on this topic , and yes the negro league HoFers still cause quite a bit of confusion even for the most advanced collectors . Ron’s books are helpful on this obviously but even there is sometimes a grey area with these . Especially since many of them aren’t on verifiable legal documents.
I had almost all the negro league HoFers at one time but at times even TPAs didn’t know and were confused about them .

[Klrdds]

All the names with an * by them I had or still have in my collection . These signatures are authentic examples as determined by TPAs or 2 well respected dealers .. I have examples of several others that aren’t marked because their authenticity is questioned or agreed on by a few TPA “ authenticators “ but not by a consensus of TPA authorities

Addie Joss *
Al Spaulding *
Alex Pompez*
Alexander Cartwright*
Amos Rusie*
Andy Cooper - No known examples in open market exist.
Ben Taylor*
Bid McPhee
Billy Hamilton*
Biz Mackey
Buck Ewing
Bullet Rogan - No known examples in open market exist.
Candy Cummings*
Cap Anson*
Cristobal Torriente
Cum Posey*
Dan Brouthers*
Deacon White*
Ed Delahanty*
Eddie Plank
Frank Chance
Frank Grant - No known examples in open market exist.
Frank Selee
George Davis
George Wright*
Hank O'Day
Harry Wright*
Henry Chadwick*
Hughie Jennings*
J.L. Wilkinson
Jack Chesbro
Jake Beckley
Jim O'Rourke*
Jimmy Collins*
Joe Kelley*
Joe McGinnity
John Clarkson - No known examples in open market exist.*
John Ward*
Jose Mendez - No known examples in open market exist.
Josh Gibson*
Jud Wilson - 1 known example in open market exists* I had only known baseball signed by him
King Kelly - 1 known example in open market exists
Louis Santop
Mickey Welch *
Mule Suttles - No known examples in open market exist.
Ned Hanlon*
Old Hoss Radbourn - No known examples in open market exist.
Oscar Charleston
Pete Hill - No known examples in open market exist.
Pop Lloyd*
Pud Galvin*
Ray Brown*
Roger Connor*
Ross Youngs*
Rube Foster
Rube Waddell - 1 known example in open market exists. This will be disputed by many, as third party authentication companies have passed at least 4-5 that I know of.
Sam Thompson - 1 known example in open market exists
Smokey Joe Williams - No known examples in open market exist
Sol White
Tim Keefe
Vic Willis*
Willie Keeler*

About 15 of these signatures are available and show up 1 - 2 times per year in auctions it just depends on how badly you want it and how much are you willing to pay . Most of the others listed trade hands privately and with no fanfare . I have seen or handled all but a few of these during the course of my 50 years of collecting. Many of the ones in my collection were the only known signatures or one of a handful known of these players .
The most I ever bid on one of these players was for a Smokey Joe Williams signed team sheet that was known for years in the hobby as his only authentic signature but didn’t appear for sale in auction until approximately 2 years after his election. I had been looking for his autograph since 1985 and had seen many forgeries during that time . I went to 45 K for the sheet but got outbid at like 2AM by a well known collector / dealer , who knew I was the underbidder and he then offered it to me for 80K the next week . I declined the purchase and it’s never surfaced again (about 20 years has elapsed since then ). So some of these signatures are out there and if you want to play this game to as complete as possible you’ve got to be prepared in many ways when the opportunity occurs.
As a said before I had the most of anyone when I stopped in 2016 but now Taz and I believe James Graham are neck and neck with their collections for the most HoFer signatures.
To address Taz’s comment about Effa Manley . I had 2 autographs of her in my collection . One was a HLS to John Holway , and the other was a signed copy of her book . Again she’s tough but not impossible and shows up every couple of years usually as an HLS , and these typically have great Negro League content . I recommend getting a letter from her for anyone’s collection. And yes Burkett needs to be added , he’s hard to find and commonly forged .

[JRS123490]

I agree that it's definitely possible to acquire some on the list I posted, I was just saying that unless you have the money and are extremely committed, there is a very high probability that most collectors will never own more than a handful of those guys. To be honest, and not to step on any toes, I don't see how any TPA could authenticate most of the 2006 Negro Leaguers, because there are such a lack of known examples to compare to. Unless they were purchased with an unassailable provenance (and even then,) I am just too leery on them.