PWCC eye appeal rating

[bk400]

Been seeing some cards with this eye appeal rating from PWCC. Is this rating helpful, stupid or somewhere in between? Does anyone put value in what PWCC says about eye appeal?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Who are you going to believe, PWCC or your own lyin' eyes?

[G1911]

Extremely helpful. PWCC’s high integrity, attention to detail, and independence without fiscal interest in the results of a card they certified make them the perfect judges for me to outsource my thinking too.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by g1911

extremely helpful. Pwcc’s high integrity, attention to detail, and independence without fiscal interest in the results of a card they certified make them the perfect judges for me to outsource my thinking too.

lol.

[jchcollins]

I'd say the stickers if anything are worth less than they were before. All of this is gimmickry - purple label, PWCC AA, E, whatever. As TPG grades supposedly consider only the physical condition of the cardboard and not necessarily eye appeal, stickers like this were originally just another stamp of approval that "Yes, this is a PSA 5, but it's a damn GOOD looking PSA 5." Ok, whatever. Given that the 5 itself is just someone's opinion and not an end-all, be-all pronouncement of value and card bragging rights hierarchy, how is a sticker any different?

To me these things are interesting, but unnecessary. Kind of like ebay re-authenticating cards already in PSA and SGC holders and then putting them in a neat little blue box to make them seem more official. It's largely a waste of time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

IMO worthless. But the market at least in the past has typically paid some premium for them.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO worthless. But the market at least in the past has typically paid some premium for them.

I've always felt like we don't have enough stickers on our slabs around here. Because a good sticker tells a lot more of the story than the slab ever will.

Allow me to remove my tongue from my cheek now.

But I do agree with Peter that the market has paid a premium for them. I've seen bestickered pieces with 50-100% premium. Even when it doesn't get that ludicrous, the premium is often easily 10-20%.

I suppose we can debate whether this result occurs because the item is truly superior even without the sticker, or whether the sticker itself is just worth that much.

I will say that the PWCC sticker seems to mostly be about centering. And I think the market over the last few years has seen a more pronounced focus on centering, with well-centered pieces commanding a serious premium over the rest. So the sticker premium could be more about the centering premium more than anything.

[bk400]

Thanks -- looks like the experts have spoken.

My first instinct was that it was overkill to have a grader grade another grader's grade, effectively. And then I googled PWCC and read about the allegations going back in their history.

But it does seem like there are people paying for their eye appeal service. I tend to see them in cards where there is a high population of, say, 8s and a much lower population of (and much higher price for) 9s and 10s. Then the 8s get the eye appeal grade.

I would have thought that sellers of high eye appeal cards could do something like superimpose images of their cards over one of those card centering tools.

[Kutcher55]

Their eye appeal ratings were brilliant and ahead of their time. I realize that has always been an unpopular opinion and yeah I think they are a shady outfit to say the least. But the eye appeal ratings generated tremendous results at auction because the cards tended to have, well, great eye appeal.

I made this point a few years ago and a board regular freaked out about it. But I stand by it to this day. This does not excuse them from being involved in card doctoring, and many of the cards with strong eye appeal rankings surely were altered, but again, great concept. They could have built a great business on it but greed got in the way.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If a card has great centering, or otherwise has strong eye appeal, and you put up a good scan, why the hell does anyone need a sticker to tell them that???????? Are people really that helpless?

I suspect the stickers were mostly awarded to insiders and a high percentage were altered. So maybe they did serve the purpose of steering those who cared about altered cards AWAY from those examples.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

Their eye appeal ratings were brilliant and ahead of their time. I realize that has always been an unpopular opinion and yeah I think they are a shady outfit to say the least. But the eye appeal ratings generated tremendous results at auction because the cards tended to have, well, great eye appeal.

I made this point a few years ago and a board regular freaked out about it. But I stand by it to this day. This does not excuse them from being involved in card doctoring, and many of the cards with strong eye appeal rankings surely were altered, but again, great concept. They could have built a great business on it but greed got in the way.

I would agree, the eye appeal sticker was mostly when they were selling on eBay. I always would shrug and say yep, that has great eye appeal but would always make me wonder, "is eye appeal a skill that other people don't have that would warrant an eye appeal specialist?".

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I would agree, the eye appeal sticker was mostly when they were selling on eBay. I always would shrug and say yep, that has great eye appeal but would always make me wonder, "is eye appeal a skill that other people don't have that would warrant an eye appeal specialist?".

They had this long writeup on the electronic version of the sticker about how they’ve seen billions of cards and so they know a superior example when they see one.

I think my favorite part of the whole thing was how they had a couple of spelling errors in their writeup. I emailed them about it once and they told me to mind my own business.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If a card has great centering, or otherwise has strong eye appeal, and you put up a good scan, why the hell does anyone need a sticker to tell them that???????? Are people really that helpless?

Yes. A majority of hobbyists evidently need validation from a corporation for anything and everything.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes. A majority of hobbyists evidently need validation from a corporation for anything and everything.

It wasn’t that long ago, was it, that Brentsy was on top of the world.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It wasn’t that long ago, was it, that Brentsy was on top of the world.

A short reign thankfully, brought down by his criminality and.... oh wait, no, that didn't happen.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by bk400

Been seeing some cards with this eye appeal rating from PWCC. Is this rating helpful, stupid or somewhere in between? Does anyone put value in what PWCC says about eye appeal?

A. Completely and utterly stupid. It honestly distracts IMHO and will bring down the value in my eyes. The dumb label just means cleaning time I don't feel like using to remove.
B. No one of any true industry knowledge or experience. Noobs and fly-by-nights that will be leaving the hobby as soon as the inevitable settling comes...yes.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by JustinD

A. Completely and utterly stupid. It honestly distracts IMHO and will bring down the value in my eyes. The dumb label just means cleaning time I don't feel like using to remove.

Agreed. And who wants random stickers on their card slabs anyway?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by JustinD

B. No one of any true industry knowledge or experience. Noobs and fly-by-nights that will be leaving the hobby as soon as the inevitable settling comes...yes.

I keep predicting a shakeout for the noobs and goons, and the shakeout keeps defying all of my predictions!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaany day now...

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by raulus

I keep predicting a shakeout for the noobs and goons, and the shakeout keeps defying all of my predictions!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaany day now...

They're waiting for the day their Zion rookie superfractor zebra-striped numbered parallel thingies to get back to the price they paid for them. Then they'll cash out and leave.

[kimo75]

This has always seemed comical to me. To state that something is in the “top 5%” you have to have seen all of the examples. This is why I get my cards graded to sell. There is always a newbie that will overpay because someone has labeled it an 8 or better.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kimo75

This has always seemed comical to me. To state that something is in the “top 5%” you have to have seen all of the examples. This is why I get my cards graded to sell. There is always a newbie that will overpay because someone has labeled it an 8 or better.

"Best we've ever handled."

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It wasn’t that long ago, was it, that Brentsy was on top of the world.

Still is, just for the eliti(st ) few!

[swarmee]

Razor sharp edges! Fresh from the razor!

[skelly423]

Do the cards get high prices because of the sticker, or do the cards get high prices because they genuinely look nice? PWCC stickers may draw extra attention to the card, but I tend to think these cards sell on their own merits, not because of the sticker attached to the slab.

[refz]

Stupid just another un-needed opinion, yet another $ making gimmick. Clearly one can tell a better looking card from another. This is a luxury for the flippers not the collectors.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Do the cards get high prices because of the sticker, or do the cards get high prices because they genuinely look nice? PWCC stickers may draw extra attention to the card, but I tend to think these cards sell on their own merits, not because of the sticker attached to the slab.

In my opinion, those stickers tend to wind up on well-centered cards. These days, many (most?) collectors place a premium on centering.

So, it would make sense that well-centered cards with a PWCC sticker will sell for more. In my opinion, this is because they're well-centered cards.

###

Related opinions - an unbelievably high percentage of those same collectors aren't really looking at many card attributes other than centering. It's almost as if nothing else matters to the masses.

Imagine a random VG 3 vintage HOFer with print spots, surface wrinkles, and a thumbnail gouge along one edge. If it's centered reasonably well, people will say it looks "strong for the grade" and charge a significant premium for it.

It makes me wonder...why get cards graded in the first place if all anyone seems to care about is the centering component of eye appeal?

(yes, I realize the answer is money)

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Eric72

In my opinion, those stickers tend to wind up on well-centered cards. These days, many (most?) collectors place a premium on centering.

So, it would make sense that well-centered cards with a PWCC sticker will sell for more. In my opinion, this is because they're well-centered cards.

###

Related opinions - an unbelievably high percentage of those same collectors aren't really looking at many card attributes other than centering. It's almost as if nothing else matters to the masses.

Imagine a random VG 3 vintage HOFer with print spots, surface wrinkles, and a thumbnail gouge along one edge. If it's centered reasonably well, people will say it looks "strong for the grade" and charge a significant premium for it.

It makes me wonder...why get cards graded in the first place if all anyone seems to care about is the centering component of eye appeal?

(yes, I realize the answer is money)

Eye appeal is a combination of centering, registration, and color, far down the list is corners.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Eye appeal is a combination of centering, registration, and color, far down the list is corners.

Yep, along with evenness of surface gloss, presence (or absence) of print flaws, brightness (or toning) of borders, etc., etc.

There are many components of eye appeal. The only one people seem to care about, though, is centering.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Yep, along with evenness of surface gloss, presence (or absence) of print flaws, brightness (or toning) of borders, etc., etc.

There are many components of eye appeal. The only one people seem to care about, though, is centering.

I don't think centering of a card with a crease across the face would be considered eye appeal. It's a combination of several factors of which centering is a big part.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I don't think centering of a card with a crease across the face would be considered eye appeal. It's a combination of several factors of which centering is a big part.

We might have different ideas regarding eye appeal. I think it’s a attribute that can be positive, neutral, or negative.

“How’s the eye appeal?”

“Not so good.”

Otherwise, we’re both probably saying similar things.

Happy collecting.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by kimo75

This has always seemed comical to me. To state that something is in the “top 5%” you have to have seen all of the examples.

Exactly, this is ludicrous. As if PWCC had some database of all slabs, and were actually doing the math on their subjective opinions to categorize a top percentage.

When I fixate on a card I'm getting ready to buy, I will sometimes go to YouTube to see if there are videos which can show nuances, etc. There used to be a number of PWCC short videos, with Brentsy himself singing the praises of some 5 or 6 figure vintage card in a PSA or SGC 9. So take the 1963 Topps Mantle, for example. Over the years, there must have been at least 3 or 4 videos of Brent raving on about different examples of that particular card as "the best we've ever seen." Yeah, each and every one of them. Sadly, a lot of these videos have recently been taken down. Guess I don't blame Fanatics for that...

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Eric72

There are many components of eye appeal. The only one people seem to care about, though, is centering.

It's largely individual preference, unless you are one of these types that cares more about hobby trends and sentiment than you do how your cards look to you.

I tried briefly to get on the centering train probably about a decade ago. It's not for me. I would much rather have a slightly OC card that has nice color and image focus, and decent corners than I would have a card that tolerates other flaws all in the name of centering almighty. Some of the YouTube channels I subscribe to, and I see people lauding perfect centering on cards with noticeable print flaws, or that might be slightly faded. This has never made sense to me. I don't like miscut cards or 90/10 OC in most cases, but to me most everything else looks at least decent, and moreover how I remember cards coming out of the pack in the late 1980's and earlier.

As we go forward especially in a hobby where it's becoming painfully evident that slabgate didn't make a difference - to me less than perfect centering is going to start to become evidence of authenticity / unaltered cards for those of us who still care. Cards 50+ years ago by and large even coming out of the pack did not conform to the standards some want to force them into today, to get into these ridiculously high grade slabs.