Lee Smith & Harold Baines??

[kailes2872]

I don't tend to be a HOF snob. But I heard about the announcement for Baines and Smith and said "Wait, What?" There was never a time when I thought, Harold Baines defined his generation. I think that about Garvey. I think that about Mattingly - but never about Baines . I liked him, but he is the definition of the hall of pretty/very good. He didn't have huge counting stats either

Smith actually has a better argument if you are a fan of relievers in the HOF. At least he was the all-time saves leader at one point. I am not a fan of relievers in the hall. This isn't a popular position with most, but I think that most relievers would have preferred to be the 4th or 5th starter in the rotation but they didn't have the 3rd pitch or the stamina. But I digress... (and yes, I know that Rivera will get in and people will say that he did his job better than any other player did theirs... but I don't like it and we can agree to disagree)

Super surprised about this - and kinda bummed at the watering down of the hall.

[sycks22]

Baines never got above 6.1% of the HOF vote and was off the ballot in 4 years. It's now the hall of "he's ok"

[gregr2]

Gotta agree with the watering down comment. Doesn’t seem like either of these guys made that significant of a contribution and/or had a real HOF career. High level contributors but not HOF.


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[glynparson]

Sorry missed where it says great in the name. Honestly the place is a museum to tell the games history. I have no problem with a guy with 2866 career hits getting in or a player who was considered at one time to be the games best closer. But then again I believe in a large hall and have no problem with relief pitchers. Good for both gentlemen and I hope they can enjoy the honor with out receiving too much hate from the peanut gallery.

[RedsFan1941]

you really don't think "hall of fame" implies "great"?

[Big Six]

Well, all I can take away from this is that Mattingly will get in.


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[gregr2]

At this rate, someday I’ll get in!!


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[iwantitiwinit]

Someone that averages .289, 22hr, 93 rbi's as a right fielder/dh and played in a single world series is not a hall of famer in my opinion.

[Koufax32fan]

Baines played for a long time - thanks to the DH rule. He led the league in one offensive category, once in his career (1984, slugging percentage). He received MVP votes in only 4 seasons, never finishing higher than 9th! All star in 6 seasons, out of 22.

Even as a Hall of "Fame", he certainly wasn't famous or thought of as being that great during his career. I grew up in Chicago in the 70's and 80's; I don't recall too many magazines with his photo on the cover (other than 2 Baseball Digests).

The Hall is certainly being watered down.

I won't even get into Smith, except to point out that his 1,286 innings pitched will be the 5th fewest. Two of the guys with fewer IPs are Satchel and the Babe. The other 2 are Hoffman and Sutter. (Rivera had 1,283 IPs and was head and shoulders better than those 3 other relievers.)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Good grief. BAINES??????????????????????????????????

[clydepepper]

Hey, Guys - I think I may have a chance next time.


Please vote for me...I only got to College level...but, what the hell, while the doors left open.


But seriously, no one who has already been through the BWAA without getting in should get in before Minnie Minoso and Luis Tiant!

The hall of fame now has lower-case letters.

=

[RedsFan1941]

suddenly johnny sain doesn’t seem as ridiculous of a suggestion

[Peter_Spaeth]

Baines does not hold a candle to Albert Belle or Dick Allen or even Dale Murphy.

Smith in but no Tiant or Tommy John?

[Fred]

Getting closer to the Hall of Lame...

I'd have taken Joe Carter or Albert "don't call me Joey" Belle over Baines.

At least Carter a had 10x100RBI years in 16 seasons and Joey had 9x100RBI years in 12 seasons.

Baines and Carter had similar lifetime SA (both more than 30 points below .500). Joey had a respectable lifetime SA of .564, pretty good.

In any case it's done so congratulations to Baines (and Smith).

Could you imagine if Vegas took odds on selections. Baines would have been a long shot (IMO).

[clydepepper]

Seriously Guys - would anyone like to start a 'grassroots' effort to get me elected?

WHAT A JOKE!

[Jason19th]

Lee Smith is long over due- he was in the generation that redefined the position and he ended his careers with the all time lead in the main thing that he did - name another star where the all time leader had to wait years for induction. Furthermore for as much as everyone wants to denigrate the save, there is a reason that most pitchers may have a good year or two but burn out hundreds of saves short of 478- it hard and the leash is short

Harold Baines should go down as one of the worst- Chick Hafey bad- if he’s in then Andres Galarage and Edgar Martinez have to fly in, then we have to make room for all of the guys who would have been able to play until they are 40 because of the dh -

Joe Adcock
Gil Hodges
Buzz Arlett
Ted Kluziski (sp)
Roy Seivers
Greg luzinski (sp)
Vic Wetz
Mickey Vernon
Hank Sauer
Hank Bauer
Dolf Camilli
Al Rosen
Gavy Cravath
Wally Moses
About 100 guys that I can’t think of right now

[KCRfan1]

The REAL travesty is George Steinbrenner receiving 4 votes or less. If anyone of the eligible were to be elected, it should have been Steinbrenner. That man was a HoF'r all the way.

[David W]

The 1981 and 1994 strike years cost Baines 3000 hits or he’d already be in.

I still don’t think he stands out as an all time great though

[Peter_Spaeth]

Fred McGriff surely has a more impressive resume than Baines, no? Larry Walker? Dwight Evans? Dave Parker?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I feel like abandoning my post war HOF collection now. I can't believe I now have to buy RCs of these two. LOL.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hall of Fame Statistics





Black Ink
Batting - 3 (560), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 40 (655), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 66 (311), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 44 (121), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS
Right Field (74th):
38.7 career WAR / 21.4 7yr-peak WAR / 30.1 JAWS
Average HOF RF (out of 25):
72.7 career WAR / 42.9 7yr-peak WAR / 57.8 JAWS

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I feel like abandoning my post war HOF collection now. I can't believe I now have to buy RCs of these two. LOL.

Me too, Peter

This is who we can blame:

The 16-member Hall of Fame Board-appointed electorate charged with the review of the Today’s Game Era features Hall of Fame members Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Pat Gillick, Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Joe Morgan, John Schuerholz, Ozzie Smith and Joe Torre; major league executives Al Avila (Tigers), Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Andy MacPhail (Phillies) and Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox); and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, Tim Kurkjian and Claire Smith.

=

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I feel like abandoning my post war HOF collection now. I can't believe I now have to buy RCs of these two. LOL.

That's funny!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Me too, Peter

This is who we can blame:

The 16-member Hall of Fame Board-appointed electorate charged with the review of the Today’s Game Era features Hall of Fame members Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Pat Gillick, Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Joe Morgan, John Schuerholz, Ozzie Smith and Joe Torre; major league executives Al Avila (Tigers), Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Andy MacPhail (Phillies) and Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox); and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, Tim Kurkjian and Claire Smith.

=

Too many ballplayers on that committee, cronyism. Like when all those above average 1930s infielders got in. If I were Dick Allen I would be disgusted.

[AGuinness]

The Baseball Hall of Fame voting, in exactly the same manner as post-season awards, is basically a scam. In both cases, most of the voters are sports writers (and in the case of Baines and Smith, I know it is different, but it is reflecting the overall process), and these writers spill more ink writing stories on predicting who will win awards or make the hall than actual news coverage of the sport. If it weren't for "Mid Season Awards" and "New Retiree's Chances of the HOF" stories, media outlets could slash their sports staffs by more than half. When the people who get to determine the outcome are also the ones declaring how important the outcomes are, it's a huge red flag to me that those outcomes are mostly meaningless.
That said, I also never enjoy the bashing of players who make it or are up for election, but that's always how it goes. I'd rather have more guys get in so we can keep celebrating the history of the game, different players and different eras and so forth. Celebrate, not denigrate.

[kailes2872]

I also never enjoy the bashing of players who make it or are up for election, but that's always how it goes. I'd rather have more guys get in so we can keep celebrating the history of the game, different players and different eras and so forth. Celebrate, not denigrate.

I hear you and I felt bad after the opening post - especially when Glyn voiced his irritation. My first thought when I heard it was “wasn’t he traded for Steve Kemp?” And then I remembered it was Chet Lemon. I don’t begrudge him and his appearance and autograph fees probably just tripled. I just think about when I started collecting/watching around 78-79 and I think about 78-84 and the cards with the all-star logo - Dave Parker, Steve Garvey, Jim Rice Fred Lynn, etc - I never put Harold in their class and except for Rice after a long wait, those guys can’t get in. So that is my point of reference- right or wrong. But I mean no disrespect

[insidethewrapper]

Got to get these 2 guys ( Baines and Smith) out of my Commons bin and send the Rookie Cards in for grading.

[familytoad]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I feel like abandoning my post war HOF collection now. I can't believe I now have to buy RCs of these two. LOL.

These HOFERS will add about $8.00 to my collection too.
Breaking the bank for HOF RC is a thing of the past!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Got to get these 2 guys ( Baines and Smith) out of my Commons bin and send the Rookie Cards in for grading.

yeah I am guessing the pop reports are going to double or triple on these guys

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kailes2872

I hear you and I felt bad after the opening post - especially when Glyn voiced his irritation. My first thought when I heard it was “wasn’t he traded for Steve Kemp?” And then I remembered it was Chet Lemon. I don’t begrudge him and his appearance and autograph fees probably just tripled. I just think about when I started collecting/watching around 78-79 and I think about 78-84 and the cards with the all-star logo - Dave Parker, Steve Garvey, Jim Rice Fred Lynn, etc - I never put Harold in their class and except for Rice after a long wait, those guys can’t get in. So that is my point of reference- right or wrong. But I mean no disrespect

Yeah I don't think anybody is denying that these two men were excellent baseball players or taking anything away from them personally. But it's fair comment to say one doesn't think they belong in the Hall, or compare unfavorably to others not in the Hall, etc.

[VintageVinnie]

I hope the HOF has the building plans and funds laid out for a massive expansion to their hof room and museum. Baines enjoyed a very nice career, but he is simply not a hof'er..that is clear. If Baines is in, that opens the door for ALOT of retired players who also enjoyed nice big league career's.. Mcgriff, Mattingly, Murphy, Martinez, heck Bill Buckner too...watered down and sad.

[rats60]

This has got to be good news for Omar Vizquel who is now the only guy with 2800 hits (other than steroid users) not in the HOF.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

The REAL travesty is George Steinbrenner receiving 4 votes or less. If anyone of the eligible were to be elected, it should have been Steinbrenner. That man was a HoF'r all the way.

Not sure if this is a joke or not (sorry) but Steinbrenner was once suspended for two years, was once banned permanently before being reinstated and he was one of the owners during the steroid era, who obviously knew what was going on, had no problem getting rich off of it (and also rewarding its use), but threw players under the bus completely when MLB got busted.

He has no business even being on the ballot with that resume. If a player got a two-year suspension, banned and was part of the steroid era, they wouldn't get a vote. He's like a much worse version of Manny Ramirez (meaning steroids/suspensions), who will never get in.

[Exhibitman]

The ghosts of Harry Hooper, Joe Tinker, Rabbit Maranville and George Kelly are smiling tonight in baseball heaven...and somewhere Buck Weaver is softly crying.

[Chris Counts]

There's no way Harold Baines was better than Minnie Minoso. They played in the same ballpark for most of their careers, and not only was Minnie's OPS was 28 points higher, but he won Gold Glove awards during three of the first four seasons they gave them out. Meanwhile, Baines didn't even play in the field.

[kmac32]

About time Big Lee got in. Great player, better person, and funny as all get out. He is a personal friend of mine and I know his family. Had him as my coach 4 out of 5 years that I went to Cubs camp.

[JollyElm]

Guess I gotta move my signed TTM 1981 Fleer Baines card to my autographed HOF rookies section now.

Most if not all of us here watched him play his entire career...did anyone ever consider him a Hall of Fame caliber player?? Wow.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Guess I gotta move my signed TTM 1981 Fleer Baines card to my autographed HOF rookies section now.

Most if not all of us here watched him play his entire career...did anyone ever consider him a Hall of Fame caliber player?? Wow.

Only when he looked like he had a shot at 3000, and only for that reason. Smith at least got some reasonably strong consideration for many years from the writers, so while it's debatable it's not an OMG moment.

[Shoeless Moe]

I'm from Chicago. A Cubs fan. Saw Lee Smith pitch.

HE BLOWS!!!!! BLEW, whatever.

Worst pitcher to ever get in.

Joke.

[oldjudge]

Here is the argument for Baines: Upon his retirement, Baines ranked seventh in American League history in games played (2,830) and tenth in runs batted in (1,628). Noted as well for his power hitting in clutch situations, he is tied for seventh in AL history in grand slams (13), fourth in three home run games (3), and tied for seventh in major league history in walk-off home runs (10). Baines batted over .300 eight times and hit .324 in 31 career postseason games, topping the .350 mark in five separate series.

That said, I don’t like the selection

[Shoeless Moe]

and Baines.....good grief.....can't wait now til Dave Concepcion gets in, Warren Cromartie and Mickey Rivers!

[Orioles1954]

I hate the negativity toward these players I've been seeing. It's not like they asked to be elected. Now everyone is crapping on them...

[mantlefan]

I hear that Tito Fuentes is waiting by his phone....

[Shoeless Moe]

I think its time to start hoarding John Franco cards.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Sorry missed where it says great in the name. Honestly the place is a museum to tell the games history. I have no problem with a guy with 2866 career hits getting in or a player who was considered at one time to be the games best closer. But then again I believe in a large hall and have no problem with relief pitchers. Good for both gentlemen and I hope they can enjoy the honor with out receiving too much hate from the peanut gallery.

Exactly!

[glchen]

I'm not sure what the shock with Harold Baines in the HOF is. He is #46 on the all time hits list. Everybody on that list from 1-53 is in the HOF except those tainted by steroids, gambling or aren't eligible yet because they are still active and one other player (Omar Vizquel). Sure he's borderline, but I think his era is underrepresented, and I'm fine with him getting in.

[dgtom]

Dick Allen was one of the most feared hitters of his era. I think of him as a Hall of Fame caliber player, and he should already be in.

[pclpads]

Cooperstown is replicating Canton. If a former FB player can tell the diff between a golf ball and a football, well, he's in at Canton! Case closed . . .

[G1911]

Fine players, but I can probably come up with 30 players more deserving. I saw the veterans committee has both Baines former manager and owner on it, which helps explain it. Veterans committee nominations seem to be almost random, while the writers tend to do a pretty good job on the whole

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

I hate the negativity toward these players I've been seeing. It's not like they asked to be elected. Now everyone is crapping on them...

Lots of these guys (I’m sure Baines is one) politic to be hall of famers. I personally don’t think these two are hall worthy but I get your point on crapping all over them. You have to be good enough to be considered and they both were. But I think it gets dicey when your former manager is on the committee and I’m sure friends etc.

Didn’t Rick Ferrell get in because someone asked people to vote for him so he wouldn’t get shut out and be embarrassed by getting no votes? That’s not how the hall of fame should work.

I collect hof signed baseballs (I grabbed these two last night lol) and all of their Topps Base Cards. Looks like I have some searching todo for some 80’s-90’s Baines/Smith cards!