What would you do? Opinions wanted

[Jantz]

Long story short, recently I won an auction on Ebay and the bid was pushed to my max bid. This struck me as odd since my winning bid was exactly the amount I was willing to pay, right down to the exact cent.

This lead me to do a little research and I've found that the underbidder has pushed numerous auctions for the same seller repeatedly over the last few months.

Next I decided to take a look at the underbidder's history. Here is what showed up.

Total Bids: 833
Items Bid On: 195
Bid Percentage with this Seller: 89%

All of this was with the same seller. He bids on only this seller's items and bids sometimes multiple times on the same auction and always bids within the last hour of every auction bumping bids up from $1 to $10 at a time, then stops never actually winning an auction.

Its quite obvious (to me) what is going on here.

Now I haven't paid yet for the auction I've won, but was curious....

What would you do if you were in my shoes?


Jantz

[markf31]

How many bid retractions does the under bidder have? The stats do make you wonder about the true intentions of the under bidder. The only stat missing from your summary is how many bid retractions the under bidder has had. I cannot imagine what the odds would be to successfully place 833 bids, if your intention is to shill auctions, without a a single bid traction being required.

Bidding multiple times on the same auction and always placing those bids within the last hour of every auction bumping bids up from $1 to $10 at a time is probably not unusual as most items on Ebay I would think see the large majority of bidding activity take place in the last hour.

[Jantz]

Thanks for the reply Mark.

The underbidder has 0 bid retractions, but has bid on almost every auction the seller has listed.

There were a few Buy It Now auctions that the seller listed and these didn't receive bids from the underbidder. Other than that, every auction but one (which was a low value card that had a bid), has been bid on by this underbidder.

He basically bids on every bid style auction whether it be a baseball, football or basketball card this seller lists and has been for months.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Long story short, recently I won an auction on Ebay and the bid was pushed to my max bid. This struck me as odd since my winning bid was exactly the amount I was willing to pay, right down to the exact cent.

This lead me to do a little research and I've found that the underbidder has pushed numerous auctions for the same seller repeatedly over the last few months.

Next I decided to take a look at the underbidder's history. Here is what showed up.

Total Bids: 833
Items Bid On: 195
Bid Percentage with this Seller: 89%

All of this was with the same seller. He bids on only this seller's items and bids sometimes multiple times on the same auction and always bids within the last hour of every auction bumping bids up from $1 to $10 at a time, then stops never actually winning an auction.

Its quite obvious (to me) what is going on here.

Now I haven't paid yet for the auction I've won, but was curious....

What would you do if you were in my shoes?


Jantz

Just a guess but the seller either has another account or has a friend shilling their auctions. Because of eBays bidding system it is not real hard to push someone to their max bid. Also bid retractions are meaningless most of the time. Shill bidding has evolved past that a long time ago for most that do it.

As far as what to do that is a personal choice. You did win the item for the price you would pay. On the other hand if you think something shady is going on do you really want to enable them even more?

EDIT: I forgot to add what I would do. At this time I am just a collector so the seller would be added to my list of sellers I would not buy from again. It is just a hobby for me and I do not need to enable the scum. Now if I was still selling cards to support myself I would pay for the card if I thought I could make $ on it. Making a buck seems to cloud peoples judgement pretty easily.

[bobbyw8469]

I would not pay and report the auction.

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by bnorth

You did win the item for the price you would pay. On the other hand if you think something shady is going on do you really want to enable them even more?

Bnorth - True, I did win the auction for what I was willing to pay, but I would have won the auction with my initial bid had I not been bumped 3 times in the last 45 minutes of the auction. My initial bid and my maximum winning bid weren't that far apart, but bidders on the seller's other auctions are getting hit harder.

Bobby - I agree with you and I'm going to take it further.

[rainier2004]

Id contact the seller and renegotiate for what the price should have been. If not, I wouldn't pay and report the auction. If he does send the card at the new price I would still report the seller. The last thing I would do is just pay the price, you were screwed.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Id contact the seller and renegotiate for what the price should have been. If not, I wouldn't pay and report the auction. If he does send the card at the new price I would still report the seller. The last thing I would do is just pay the price, you were screwed.

Let us know who he is and then tell the seller you have shared your experience with 10,000 of your best friends, all of whom collect cards. If this doesn’t help in resolving your issue, just move on and we will all join you.

[Jobu]

I am curious how he manages never to win the items with 0 retractions. I know he can win and simply not pay, but it doesn't sound like that happens here. Jantz, if you look at the sold listings does the same card show up a lot?

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by Jobu

I am curious how he manages never to win the items with 0 retractions. I know he can win and simply not pay, but it doesn't sound like that happens here. Jantz, if you look at the sold listings does the same card show up a lot?

He can do this by bidding in the minimum possible increments and seeing where the next auto-bid from the high bidder comes in. If the current bid is $500, the shiller bids $505, and the auto-bid moves to $510, then the shiller knows he can take it another step. But, if the current bid is $500, the shiller bids $505, and the auto-bid moves to $507, the shiller will know he has almost reached the winner's top bid, and will not bump the bid again.

It seems obvious what is going on here. I would out the seller here so that we can all avoid him. And just another example of why I only snipe-bid on eBay.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

He can do this by bidding in the minimum possible increments and seeing where the next auto-bid from the high bidder comes in. If the current bid is $500, the shiller bids $505, and the auto-bid moves to $510, then the shiller knows he can take it another step. But, if the current bid is $500, the shiller bids $505, and the auto-bid moves to $507, the shiller will know he has almost reached the winner's top bid, and will not bump the bid again.

It seems obvious what is going on here. I would out the seller here so that we can all avoid him. And just another example of why I only snipe-bid on eBay.

Not even one win though in 195 items that were bid on, makes this even more strange and odd to me. I understand the scenario you laid out but on 195 items bid on, the odds of never once winning by accident seems incredibly small.

Take your example of a auction currently at $500. Ebay bidding increments state (I think) that the next bid has to be at least $10 over, so if they try to shill bid at $510, it is entirely possible the previous high bid was only $505 and now the shill becomes the high bidder. But that never once happened on 195 items and 833 bids.

I do believe something is up here, but I dont think its as straight forward as blind shill bidding.

[cardinalcollector]

Jantz, look up the seller and shillers IDs on Ebay and see where their locations are. If they are both from the same location, that would be very telling.

[botn]

Originally Posted by cardinalcollector

Jantz, look up the seller and shillers IDs on Ebay and see where their locations are. If they are both from the same location, that would be very telling.

That cannot be done any longer since ebay has blocked buyer ids to everyone but the seller of the particular item. Has only succeeded in allowing stuff like this to go on regularly on ebay.

[orly57]

What would I do? I would pay for the card that I bid on. I would pay the price I willingly agreed to pay for a card I wanted. Then I would either never buy from that seller, or bid carefully in his future auctions.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by markf31

Not even one win though in 195 items that were bid on, makes this even more strange and odd to me. I understand the scenario you laid out but on 195 items bid on, the odds of never once winning by accident seems incredibly small.

Take your example of a auction currently at $500. Ebay bidding increments state (I think) that the next bid has to be at least $10 over, so if they try to shill bid at $510, it is entirely possible the previous high bid was only $505 and now the shill becomes the high bidder. But that never once happened on 195 items and 833 bids.

I do believe something is up here, but I dont think its as straight forward as blind shill bidding.

I hate to add to Dan's description on how to shill bid. The part you are not understanding is even if the shill bidder does accidentally become the top bidder in the last day. They still have all the snipe bidders to fall back on. Thats right snipe bidding helps shillers sometimes. Even if knowing how to shill up to a persons top bid and the snipers don't save one of your shilling accounts from winning, they can just cancel the transaction with themselves/friend.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by orly57

What would I do? I would pay for the card that I bid on. I would pay the price I willingly agreed to pay for a card I wanted. Then I would either never buy from that seller, or bid carefully in his future auctions.

I'd probably do the same. If I was bothered enough to create a thread about an issue like this I would also include the seller's eBay id so the rest of the community here can avoid this guy.

[CTDean]

So the possible shill bidder has no bid retractions for the auction. Does the auction show any retracted bids from anyone else? It could be done with multiple people. One bids & retracts immediately to find the max bid, and could then pass that number to the shill bidder.

[Michael B]

I would pay for the item and move on. You readily admitted that the bid you placed was the maximum amount you were willing to pay. The salient point is that "my winning bid was exactly the amount I was willing to pay, right down to the exact cent.". You said that you could have had it at a lower price if not for the shenanigans. That is just a guess based on certain dynamics of an auction. There is no way of knowing if there may have been someone else watching who was going to bid late and saw it rise to a point above what they were willing to pay and did not enter a bid. I have no doubt that the seller is playing games, either using several accounts or in collusion with someone else. The people that go to that much trouble have learned to game the system. You can chose to not bid with this person again, bid using a snipe program or wait until the last 10 seconds or so which is what I usually do.

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

He can do this by bidding in the minimum possible increments and seeing where the next auto-bid from the high bidder comes in. If the current bid is $500, the shiller bids $505, and the auto-bid moves to $510, then the shiller knows he can take it another step. But, if the current bid is $500, the shiller bids $505, and the auto-bid moves to $507, the shiller will know he has almost reached the winner's top bid, and will not bump the bid again.

It seems obvious what is going on here. I would out the seller here so that we can all avoid him. And just another example of why I only snipe-bid on eBay.

Is this right? That the autobid increment is affected by another person's max bid? I thought the autobid increment was simply determined by the price and previous bidding

[clydepepper]

Please share the seller's Ebay ID - so we can avoid your plight.

Thanks



.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by orly57

What would I do? I would pay for the card that I bid on. I would pay the price I willingly agreed to pay for a card I wanted. Then I would either never buy from that seller, or bid carefully in his future auctions.

I agree 100% with this. You bid on the card and you won it, at a price you were willing to pay. Chances are you got shilled, live with it, and live and learn: (i) dont buy from this seller anymore, and (ii) why on earth does anyone in an ebay auction ever bid a dime unless its 4 or less seconds before the auction ends??

That said, sure report the seller just in case this is happening. But you should honor your contract.

[Jantz]

Just a quick update.

I have spoken with Ebay and the underbidder has already been warned once recently for this type of bidding. The Ebay employee also informed me that an investigation will be issued against the underbidder & the seller.

At the moment, I'm to take this matter up with the seller. So I'm waiting for a reply from the seller.

Regardless, I know what is going on in this seller's auctions. If you want the seller's Ebay username, PM me.

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Please share the seller's Ebay ID - so we can avoid your plight.

Thanks



.

PM sent

[rainier2004]

I guess I should stop being surprised with people that are ok with being shilled. Just b/c someone was willing to pay their top bid doesn't mean it its ok when the integrity of then auction was tampered with.

[JollyElm]

You know what they say about the ambulatory and vocal practices of a waterfowl, right? Well, this seller/shiller is a frickin' duck. No doubt.

[hangman62]

Oh no doubt shill ..one way or another

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

I guess I should stop being surprised with people that are ok with being shilled. Just b/c someone was willing to pay their top bid doesn't mean it its ok when the integrity of then auction was tampered with.yjkl

It's not that I'm ok with being shilled, but if I won the auction for what I was willing to pay, chances are it's a card I want and it probably wouldn't be worth the fight. Although after hearing of the progress the OP has made with ebay so far in this case if this situation arises I may take a different approach.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

He can do this by bidding in the minimum possible increments and seeing where the next auto-bid from the high bidder comes in. If the current bid is $500, the shiller bids $505, and the auto-bid moves to $510, then the shiller knows he can take it another step. But, if the current bid is $500, the shiller bids $505, and the auto-bid moves to $507, the shiller will know he has almost reached the winner's top bid, and will not bump the bid again.

It seems obvious what is going on here. I would out the seller here so that we can all avoid him. And just another example of why I only snipe-bid on eBay.

Ah, very interesting! Thanks Dan, for the info. Should have figured it out myself.

As to the poster's question, my actions would most likely be dictated by how tough the item is to obtain, whether I was not greatly dissatisfied with the price I paid and set as my maximum, etc. One thing I definitely would not do is bid with that seller again!

May your collecting bring you the joy it is supposed to,

Larry

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

I guess I should stop being surprised with people that are ok with being shilled.

that's a heck of a leap.

[chalupacollects]

I would pay for the item and simultaneously report the seller to ebay, then banish him from our world...

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

that's a heck of a leap.

How is that? There are several comments about paying the top bid as that is what they were willing to pay. This topic has been debated in several threads and some people do not have a problem paying whatever they were willing to bid. I'm missing your point...

[BlueDevil89]

If you don't want the card at the price you won the auction, you can call eBay and discuss with them your concerns about shill bidding.

I've had an eBay representative outright tell me that a particular seller has been reported and warned several times about shill bidding in their auctions. I was surprised that they would share that information with me.

If eBay agrees that you were likely the victim of shill bidding, they will let you out of the auction win without any penalty to you.

You simply have to decide whether you want the card at that price or not.

It's very unfortunate, but very little is being done to prevent / stop shill bidding in eBay auctions. If it happens to you and you complain, they will release you from your obligation to buy. However, they will do little to prevent it from happening again.