How were T3 Cards Manufactured?

[TobaccoKing4]

Does anyone have any information regarding how these cards were manufactured? Were they produced using photo negatives similar to Old Judge cards, or are they lithographs like the T206s?

Thanks.

[irishdenny]

The Latter...
There are Actually "T3 Proofs",
Much as the Same as the Popular "T206 Proofs"!

Maybe Mr. Craig will Chime iN!?!?
He has been a "T3 Professor", as iN Educated ~
Fir Sum Time Now!!!

Love Dose T3's!!!

[TobaccoKing4]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

The Latter...
There are Actually "T3 Proofs",
Much as the Same as the Popular "T206 Proofs"!

Maybe Mr. Craig will Chime iN!?!?
He has been a "T3 Professor", as iN Educated ~
Fir Sum Time Now!!!

Love Dose T3's!!!

Interesting. I did some more research after posting this and found that they are specifically chromolithographs. They used a litho-stone, exposed it to a photonegative, and then added coloring and details to the litho-stone. Interesting stuff!

[bdk1976]

Tobaccoking- any links to what you found? I'm interested in this as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TobaccoKing4]

Originally Posted by bdk1976

Tobaccoking- any links to what you found? I'm interested in this as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The following gov't website describes them as chromolithographs:
https://www.loc.gov/collections/base...=shelf-id_desc

The following website talks about how chromolithographs were/are made:
http://www.metropostcard.com/print10-photochromo.html

[T3s]

Hello,
Thanks for exploring the topic. Of all the aspects related to Turkey Reds, I've not fully explored the actual issue of production. There are some relevant and important sources online that describe the chromolithographic printing process, as it was utilized broadly during its day to produce some beautiful art (like T3s). While I've never found a specific mention of the T3 printing process, my assumption would certainly be that it mirrored the production of all similar instances of chromolithographic printing on paper of that time period. Here are a few additional elements to consider:

Were they produced on sheets? If so, what size (how many cards per sheet)? Which players were on a sheet - multiples of the same? By number/alphabetical? Or maybe one by one?

I've inspected thousands of T3s over the years and have never found one off center enough to determine the identity of another card on any side. Also, since they were redemption items issued by request it would seem that the production crew would potentially print more Cobbs and Mattys than Devlins.

An examination of the T3 proofs reveals ghost images on the unprinted backs of several. This might give clues as to how they were stacked and how sheets were layed out. Or maybe not if the cards were produced one by one.

How about the updated cards - McIntyre, Doolan, Paskert, Tenney. If printed on sheets, how were these updates done?

Rhoades is a rarity, with no Turkey Red back examples. Was he a victim of lack of demand? No one else seems to have been? A broken/damaged printing plate maybe?

How about the quite rare "B's" of the second series (Bell, Bender, Browne, Burns, Bescher) who are rarely found with Turkey Red backs? We know the cards were created like a "sandwich" with two very thin pieces of printed paper attached to a thicker center piece and we also believe that the Turkey Red backs were printed during the final runs of the second series. Do the "B's" then hint at a damaged plate with many cards on it?

That's enough for now.

I'd enjoy hearing some educated opinions on these questions. Thanks in advance for your insights.

Happy Collecting,
Craig

[steve B]

The stones could also be laid out using transfers. A lot of stuff including cards was done that way.

Sheet size would be determined by a formula, setup time and how many total of each card were ordered by the customer. Setup time would have been the longest part of it. So it's not efficient to setup for a really big sheet if you're only doing a few of each. The same goes for having a small sheet. If you're making a few hundred thousand of something setup time affects the overall job less. (Modern stuff has changed that a LOT which is why we can have so many 1/1s made for modern cards.)

I'd be surprised if they were done on really small sheets, like 2x2 would be really unusual. And they're large and not common enough for very large sheets.

Steve B

[Leon]

So is the ongoing thinking that they might have been produced individually somehow? Nice discussion... (question is for Steve, Craig and anyone else too)

Originally Posted by steve B

The stones could also be laid out using transfers. A lot of stuff including cards was done that way.

Sheet size would be determined by a formula, setup time and how many total of each card were ordered by the customer. Setup time would have been the longest part of it. So it's not efficient to setup for a really big sheet if you're only doing a few of each. The same goes for having a small sheet. If you're making a few hundred thousand of something setup time affects the overall job less. (Modern stuff has changed that a LOT which is why we can have so many 1/1s made for modern cards.)

I'd be surprised if they were done on really small sheets, like 2x2 would be really unusual. And they're large and not common enough for very large sheets.

Steve B

[steve B]

I can't imagine them being done individually.

There being one out there with another card showing is a solid indication that they were done in sheets.

Aside from stuff like books where a bunch of pages that end up together are on a sheet, very little gets done individually. Most of that is very short run stuff that's not efficiently done on a larger press. For example a few hundred laser warning signs were done on the press that did stuff around 8 1/2 x 11, it wasn't worth doing them in a sheets of 4 on the 25-26" press.

The guys who know T3s better would be better able to get close to a potential sheet size by groups of related rarity or commonness. All of course affected by popularity.

Steve B

[conor912]

Interesting discussion. To me, the most unique feature of this set's production and distribution that made it different from any other (as far as I know), is that people who sent in for them were allowed to request what player they wanted, as someone touched on earlier. Not knowing what kind of demand there would be, I'm guessing the printer wouldn't have wanted to print that many, if any, beforehand. Also, I have found it interesting that the centering on T3s, overall, is amazing compared to other issues of the time. I have also never seen a single miscut, "name on top", or any other indication common with known sheet prints to exist in the T3 set, which could also indicate individual printing.

On the other hand, as someone pointed out, if they printed individually then demand for Cobb's, Mattys, etc would mean that there would be 20x more stars than commons to have survived, which based on experience and pop reports is not the case.

It's clear I have no definitive answers, but as someone working on this set, I'll definitely be doing some more research on this question.

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by conor912

Interesting discussion. To me, the most unique feature of this set's production and distribution that made it different from any other (as far as I know), is that people who sent in for them were allowed to request what player they wanted, as someone touched on earlier. Not knowing what kind of demand there would be, I'm guessing the printer wouldn't have wanted to print that many, if any, beforehand. Also, I have found it interesting that the centering on T3s, overall, is amazing compared to other issues of the time. I have also never seen a single miscut, "name on top", or any other indication common with known sheet prints to exist in the T3 set, which could also indicate individual printing.

On the other hand, as someone pointed out, if they printed individually then demand for Cobb's, Mattys, etc would mean that there would be 20x more stars than commons to have survived, which based on experience and pop reports is not the case.

It's clear I have no definitive answers, but as someone working on this set, I'll definitely be doing some more research on this question.

Hey There Conor!

Well the 2 areas THaT I Believe to be true... imho
Are these:

1st, Because there are "Proofs" out there,
I believe THaT THeY were Not Made Individually.

2nd, "Requesting a Player", Such as a Noted HoF'er
Doesn't mean THaT THeY Didn't Send You a Common
Wit an Apology & a Bonus of Some Sort!
Heck, it EVeN Happens TaDaY Wit Redemptions Cards...

I Certainly NeVar Want ta be Negative...
These are MoST Surely My Positive Observations

[T3s]

Hello,

Denny's point about which cards were actually sent versus what was requested is 100% correct. Here is the wording on the redemption coupons:


Write plainly your name and address, stating
picture desired. Three (3) selections should be
made, 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice. In the event we
have neither, we reserve the right to substitute
another.


To Conor's point (which I also touched on) about the lack of off-centered cards, I'd just guess that it would be much easier to precisely cut a sheet of Turkey Reds than a sheet of much smaller cards like T206s. The cards do come in a wide variety of actual sizes (slight variations of the intended 5 3/4 x 8). Some quite a bit larger and others much smaller. They also can be found slightly off-center, but nothing like we're used to seeing with smaller tobacco cards.

Best,
Craig

[steve B]

Originally Posted by T3s

Hello,

Denny's point about which cards were actually sent versus what was requested is 100% correct. Here is the wording on the redemption coupons:


Write plainly your name and address, stating
picture desired. Three (3) selections should be
made, 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice. In the event we
have neither, we reserve the right to substitute
another.


To Conor's point (which I also touched on) about the lack of off-centered cards, I'd just guess that it would be much easier to precisely cut a sheet of Turkey Reds than a sheet of much smaller cards like T206s. The cards do come in a wide variety of actual sizes (slight variations of the intended 5 3/4 x 8). Some quite a bit larger and others much smaller. They also can be found slightly off-center, but nothing like we're used to seeing with smaller tobacco cards.

Best,
Craig

Yes, and not only are they fairly large, but the borders are really big. Being off by 1/4 inch on centering wouldn't be all that obvious, but on a little card it's "wow look at that".

Steve B